Someone Else Unifies Japan Other than Nobunaga, Hideyoshi or Tokugawa

[MarshalBraginsky]

OTL Japan was unified by Nobunaga, who then died and was succeeded by Hideyoshi who proceeded to launch Japan's first invasion into Korea that ended in failure, leading to Tokugawa becoming the real ruler of Japan soon after that.

Now, how will Japan's development as a nation be affected if all three shoguns were somehow killed before the end of the Sengoku Period? The candidates that I would think of would be Uesugi Kenshin, Hattori Hanzo*, Akechi Mitsuhide, a member of the Mori clan, or some other daimyo with a territory either in western Japan or northern Japan.

*I used Hattori Hanzo as the guy for the Ivangorod TL, but I want to expand my thoughts on whether or not he could have been successful.

The other question is, are the alternate candidates listed above had any expansionist ideas as Hideyoshi, or were they content with just ruling their domains?

 

[Razgriz 2K9]

That's the thing with Sengoku-era Japan, just about anybody who everybody had a shot of becoming Shogun and unifying Japan under their rule. Now as to the path to success however, I cannot say because I'm about as knowledgeable about that as a guy who plays Europa Universalis...

 

[Kome]

That's the thing with Sengoku-era Japan, just about anybody who everybody had a shot of becoming Shogun and unifying Japan under their rule. Now as to the path to success however, I cannot say because I'm about as knowledgeable about that as a guy who plays Europa Universalis...

Hideyoshi was pretty damn low on the totem pole of Japanese society before getting the draft pick, so yeah, this sounds right.

 

[WhatIsAUserName]

Any thoughts on the Odawara Hojo? They managed to hold out longer than any of Hideyoshi or Oda's other foes, but this might be a consequence of being out in the east rather than their martial ability.

 

[Vingilótë]

Maybe Takeda Shingen?

 

[BBadolato]

It's something that I have been toying with for an Oda Nobunaga dies at Okehazama TL. Who can really unify the country really depends on how the 3 unifiers aren't gaining power. Nobunaga dying at Okehazama removes Nobunaga, keeps Hideyoshi and as a Hashiba and a peasant, While Ieyasu remains Motoyasu Matsudaira a vassal of the Imagawa.

With that you have several strong Daimyo across Japan, but you still have the triple marriage alliance of the Hojo,Takeda and Imagawa. So the Hojo and Takeda aren't making any moves anytime soon, for my TL i'm toying with the idea of a less impetuous Yoshimoto. You also have the Miyoshi as very powerful Daimyo in central Japan andb the island of Shikoku, with the Mori,Shimazu, and Otomo as regional powers in the West.

If we go by what happened in Western Japan before Hideyoshi conquered it the Mori and Shimazu ultimately became the top dogs of the island of Kyushu and the Chugoku region respectively. The Chosokabe did conquer Shikoku but that was after the Miyoshi suffered from infighting and wars against the Oda.

In short it's possible for someone else other than the 3 unifiers to do it, however it really depends on whats being used for a POD, and taking into account other clans.

 

[Shogo]

Hmm . . . I'd say either the Uesugi or the Mori.

Maybe the Imagawa . . . People thought Yoshimoto was going to do it right up until Nobunaga destroyed him at Okehazama.

He certainly could have died there. I've heard he actually took a nasty hit from an arrow, those this could be an embellishment.

It could very easily have proven fatal. (The Onimusha series used the incident as a "He sold his soul to demons." moment.)

If Mitsuhide manages a victory against Hideyoshi . . . I suppose the Akechi might have pulled it off if they could the rest of the Oda retainers. (Tokugawa, Shibata, etc.)

Or maybe Nobunaga himself?

I know you said not to use him . . . But he didn't actually unify Japan. Mitsuhide betrayed and killed him while he was still in the middle of unifying Japan, Hideyoshi finished what he started, and Ieyasu made the unification stick.

Oh! Hey! Maybe Mitsunari Ishida after a victory at Sekigahara? Though i guess that would still be a Toyotomi unification.

 

[Razgriz 2K9]

Hmm . . . I'd say either the Uesugi or the Mori.

Maybe the Imagawa . . . People thought Yoshimoto was going to do it right up until Nobunaga destroyed him at Okehazama.

He certainly could have died there. I've heard he actually took a nasty hit from an arrow, those this could be an embellishment.

It could very easily have proven fatal. (The Onimusha series used the incident as a "He sold his soul to demons." moment.)

If Mitsuhide manages a victory against Hideyoshi . . . I suppose the Akechi might have pulled it off if they could the rest of the Oda retainers. (Tokugawa, Shibata, etc.)

Or maybe Nobunaga himself?

I know you said not to use him . . . But he didn't actually unify Japan. Mitsuhide betrayed and killed him while he was still in the middle of unifying Japan, Hideyoshi finished what he started, and Ieyasu made the unification stick.

Oh! Hey! Maybe Mitsunari Ishida after a victory at Sekigahara? Though i guess that would still be a Toyotomi unification.

Actually yes, Mitsunari is loyal to the Toyotomi after all.

 

[nomisma]

Any thoughts on the Odawara Hojo? They managed to hold out longer than any of Hideyoshi or Oda's other foes, but this might be a consequence of being out in the east rather than their martial ability.

Quite opposite, the late Hojo clan was likely one of the least possible candidate to unify Japan.(unless it can reform the internal structure, which is highly unlikely)

The late Hojo clan was very decentralized due to the rising background of Hōjō Sōun, that he had to secede much of the power to kokujin and resulting Odawara hyojo. Many people said Odawara hyojo was the greatest strength of late Hojo clan, but in really it is the greatest weakest of late Hojo clan, and was the main reason why late Hojo clan always react slowly to the outside events.(like the Honno-ji Incident or even the Toyotomi Hideyoshi's campaign against the Hōjō clan)

Most of the Sengoku-Daimyo had to face the similar problem and unless they reformed no one really can unify Japan(which make Oda Nobunaga so special in the Sengoku period), but the late hojo clan's problem was much serious and unsolvable.

 

[Fox Eating Bamboo]

Quite opposite, the late Hojo clan was likely one of the least possible candidate to unify Japan.

Still not as unlikely as Hideyoshi.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

The thing is, I've been watching Nobunaga the Fool lately.

And Takeda Shingen, that is another plausible candidate since I didn't think of him as a possible candidate. Although which daimyo was effective at using sea power in his campaigns?

 

[Shogo]

The only Clan I can really think of where naval matters are concerned would be the Mori . . . I know Nobunaga went out of his way to destroy the Mori Navy with O' Ataka Bune. (A kind of iron ship.)

 

[BBadolato]

The thing is, I've been watching Nobunaga the Fool lately.

And Takeda Shingen, that is another plausible candidate since I didn't think of him as a possible candidate. Although which daimyo was effective at using sea power in his campaigns?

The only Daimyo who were really effective in using seapower where several of the Daimyo in the western parts of Japan such as the Murakami and Mori, the Oda did adopt a strong navy but that was after moving westwards. Shingen is a matter of what POD and will he still be drawn drawn into conflicts with the Uesugi and Hojo.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Mori clan was the clan that Ranmaru was in, right?

 

[Sharunaku]

Mori clan was the clan that Ranmaru was in, right?

No. It's Mōri clan and Mori Ranmaru, totally unrelated.

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

I see.

Is it true that historically, Uesugi was depicted as effeminate?

And there was really no daimyo that controlled the Tohoku region of Japan before the unification, right?

 

[nomisma]

I see.

Is it true that historically, Uesugi was depicted as effeminate?

And there was really no daimyo that controlled the Tohoku region of Japan before the unification, right?

Well, Date Tanemune successful establish hegemony over most of the Tohoku region through marriage

 

[BBadolato]

I see.

Is it true that historically, Uesugi was depicted as effeminate?

And there was really no daimyo that controlled the Tohoku region of Japan before the unification, right?

Tohoku was largely divided between several clans ,with the Nanbu and Date being the most prominent.

Uesugi Kenshin being effeminate, that depends on interpretation. He never had kids but he adopted, and he was described as being beautiful. However it's a theory that could be considered fringe.

 

[nomisma]

Still not as unlikely as Hideyoshi.

Although saying the least maybe overstate, personally I don't really think Late Holo clan have much more chance than Hideyoshi

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

Sendai was a good stronghold because it was rather close to Edo, so I'm not sure if the Date clan could also be a good contender in the unification of Japan since they might control several fortresses.