Some questions:Maritime Terminology

Like it says in the title, I want to make a thread like the LOGISTICS thread, but with a much more narrow scope, focused upon defining various things to do with ships, from both geographical and infrastructural points of view. My own interests are going to be from say 1900 on, but that shouldn't preclude stuff from earlier times being mentioned.

I would like to know what are:

Harbors, as in what makes a good one, why are they important, and good sources for reading up about them, and of course, their influence and effect of military campaigns.

Ports, as in what the heck are they, why are they important, and what makes up a port, so basically, everything that one would find in a port, what water depth/tides have on their usefullness etc...

Shipyards, as ports above.

Naval Bases, as above.

So for this thread, can anyone post good books, websites and such that could give me an idea on what to learn, so that when I learn enough to make the thread posited, I ccan at least have some idea where to start and what questions to ask?
 
I would like to know what are:

Harbors, as in what makes a good one, why are they important, and good sources for reading up about them, and of course, their influence and effect of military campaigns.

A harbor is any place where you can safely anchor, moor, or dock a maritime vessel. Harbors can be man-made (through the use of jetties, artificial reefs, and other similar projects) or natural (like Cape Cod, San Francisco Bay, and the Puget Sound). What all harbors have in common is they offer sheltered, relatively calm waters where vessels can be tied up safely with the reasonable expectation that the tides, waves, or the currents won't sweep them away.

Ports, as in what the heck are they, why are they important, and what makes up a port, so basically, everything that one would find in a port, what water depth/tides have on their usefullness etc...

A port is a place where shipping by water takes place. The difference between a harbor and a port is ports have the additional capacity, usually in the form of wharves, docks, warehouses, and equipment, to unload and load large quantities of cargo from ships to dry land for transport and distribution along with the means to refuel and support any vessels using the harbor for engaging in extended voyages. All ports are in harbors because the advantages offered by a harbor of safe, sheltered waters makes it much easier to do all of this. A good example of this is the difference between an anchorage in a harbor and a port. An anchorage is where you can bring your ship in to mooring and docking safely and move to and from it but the anchorage, which is nearly always in a harbor, is not equipped and usually not large enough to handle large volumes of goods.

As for good qualities for a port they need to have a good, large harbor to provide lots of space for large numbers of vessels to move in and out freely. They need lots of docks for vessels to tie up at during loading and unloading operations along with facilities like warehouses to store the goods prior to land-based distribution. They also need to be in deep enough water to accommodate the draft of any vessels frequenting the port. This is the reason why San Francisco is no longer a major port and most port operations now take place in Oakland where the water is deep enough to handle large container ships. Ports also need to be in a location where it is possible to easily distribute goods by land, usually through road or rail, although it is often true that good ports will develop such connections as was the case with San Francisco Bay in the 19th century.

Shipyards, as ports above.

Shipyards are places where you build ships. They need to be located at a harbor to provide a safe point for launching the new ships, have access to raw materials, skilled labor, and manufacturing facilities for all the parts needed to build ships, and have large amounts of space for the actual construction which takes place in large structures known as slipways. Modern ports also need drydocks which are specialized facilities that are capable of housing a full-sized ship on dry land for repair, construction, and upgrade and moving them back into the water when the work is done. The reason you need drydocks is because water, especially salt water, is highly corrosive and there are some repairs that can't be conducted on a ship that is in the water.

Naval Bases, as above.

Naval bases are, effectively, ports that specialize in handling military vessels. They also usually come with drydock repair facilities to handle maintenance and repair work on their own but usually don't come with all the bells and whistles you see with a shipyard. Some naval bases do double duty as shipyards, like Norfolk, but this is not common as shipyards need lots of highly specialized equipment and space to operate effectively. The main difference between a naval base and a port is the main traffic they cater to is military as opposed to commercial traffic that civilian ports enjoy and they have additional repair facilities most ports lack. The other main difference is there are often naval bases, like Diego Garcia, that are located great distances away from major nodes of traffic and function as facilities for supporting naval operations by providing space for repairs, refueling, and resupply. Naval bases in terms of placement focus more on providing strategic locations for sending out the fleet to engage, like Scapa Flow or Pearl Harbor, maintaining extended fleet operations, or controlling critical waterways and chokepoints like Gibraltar.
 
A Port and a Harbour aren't always the same thing, a Port with jetties, wharves and the like can be built in or near the mouth of a river. The picture below is of a coastal steamer in Port Fairy Victoria (very near where I grew up) in the '30s as the railway was killing the coastal steamer traffic. The port itself is in the river which as a turning basin probably about where the photographer is standing, the sea is behind the dunes in the background, there is no appreciable harbour.
 
Thank you, Sir!


As for good Port qualities: large harbor, lots of Docks & Facilities like warehouses to store the goods prior to land-based distribution.
So I should pay special attention to the above two things when doing the future thread. Anything (other than water depth, which I cut before I thought about it) else that I may need to know/ask about? I want to get a good thread, that provides (eventually) a 'one-stop-shopping' kind of experience.


So now I have to ask, what are the differences (or are there any) between wharves, docks and Piers and a 'Quays'? I have seen raised wooden platforms referred to as docks, but is this correct?

What are: jetties, artificial reefs? Something like a breakwater, to stop waves?

So an Anchorage is something between a Harbor (without cargo facilities) and a Port (with large amounts of cargo handling capacity? Thanks.

Shipyards are places where you build ships. They need to be located at a harbor to provide a safe point for launching the new ships, have access to raw materials, skilled labor, and manufacturing facilities for all the parts needed to build ships, and have large amounts of space for the actual construction which takes place in large structures known as slipways.
As I so far understand it, the slipways were (are) the 'bottlenecks' for building large ships?


Modern Shipyards also need dry-docks which are specialized facilities that are capable of housing a full-sized ship on dry land for repair, construction, and upgrade and moving them back into the water when the work is done. The reason you need dry-docks is because water, especially salt water, is highly corrosive and there are some repairs that can't be conducted on a ship that is in the water.
I'll need to read up on these as well, I think.


Naval bases are, effectively, ports that specialize in handling military vessels. Naval bases in terms of placement focus more on providing strategic locations for sending out the fleet to engage, like Scapa Flow or Pearl Harbor, maintaining extended fleet operations, or controlling critical waterways and chokepoints like Gibraltar.
If you approve, I will ask your permission to use the above as quotes in the information thread as a starting point.
 
A Port and a Harbour aren't always the same thing, a Port with jetties, wharves and the like can be built in or near the mouth of a river. The picture below is of a coastal steamer in Port Fairy Victoria (very near where I grew up) in the '30s as the railway was killing the coastal steamer traffic. The port itself is in the river which as a turning basin probably about where the photographer is standing, the sea is behind the dunes in the background, there is no appreciable harbour.
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&r...QIgTAyEvqcZ6UsIFVcWFRqeQ&ust=1434230589893889
Fair enough, I will add that into my thread, as like an exception to the 'almost always' one with the other.
 
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As I so far understand it, the slipways were (are) the 'bottlenecks' for building large ships?

[CO
Is the above true? At least for battleships I am being told that gun pits are the main bottlenecks. ANyone feel like explaining this and how they get from shore onto the battleships?
 

Saphroneth

Banned
For building large ships, slipways are a bottleneck.
For building large turreted ships, turrets are a separate bottleneck.
They both have the potential to majorly slow things down.

Logistics is like that, it's a mess of constraints.
 
Fair enough, I will add that into my thread, as like an exception to the 'almost always' one with the other.

You're not incorrect, I think the terminology is imprecise.

For example I think a harbour is a good anchorage, due to it's sheltered nature and if other factors are right such as deep water close enough to useable land the harbour-anchorage will be developed into a port with jetties and other infrastructure.
 
I recall that "Hampton Roads" was originally an anchoring place which was not a natural harbour but which nevertheless had no rip currents or particularly nasty features.
One of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadstead

I've read that was also true during the Crusades. There were ports with open roadstead that could be used during good weather but the Crusaders needed an all weather port, I think Acre was the one they needed.
 
Is the above true? At least for battleships I am being told that gun pits are the main bottlenecks.
Hey man, good to see ya!

Anyone feel like explaining this and how they get from shore onto the battleships?
Not here, please, other than this bit below, ok? Later on, when I get the whole shebang together, I will cover that in the part about naval shipbuilding.

You may be right on the gunpits/turrets, but I think that is 'big gun' warship specific, as opposed to the construction of large ships themselves. As far as I am being told, turrets are built, tested, dissassembled, sent to the place where the BB is being completed, and then reassembled on board? Or at least that is what I (perhaps mis)understand at this point.

In the thread I am going to write, I am also going to want to be able to ask question on improvements to naturaly occuring terrain features, as part of the greater
 
For building large ships, slipways are a bottleneck.
For building large turreted ships, turrets are a separate bottleneck.
They both have the potential to majorly slow things down.

Logistics is like that, it's a mess of constraints.
Thats probably the best way of putting it, and better than what I wrote.

I recall that "Hampton Roads" was originally an anchoring place which was not a natural harbour but which nevertheless had no rip currents or particularly nasty features.
One of these:
[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadstead"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roadstead[/URL]

I've read that was also true during the Crusades. There were ports with open roadstead that could be used during good weather but the Crusaders needed an all weather port, I think Acre was the one they needed.
Interesting. I can see this is going to be a good deal of work, but perhaps it might just be worth doing.;)
 
A Port and a Harbour aren't always the same thing, a Port with jetties, wharves and the like can be built in or near the mouth of a river. The picture below is of a coastal steamer in Port Fairy Victoria (very near where I grew up) in the '30s as the railway was killing the coastal steamer traffic. The port itself is in the river which as a turning basin probably about where the photographer is standing, the sea is behind the dunes in the background, there is no appreciable harbour.

Which makes it an artificial harbor. Not all harbors are natural and it isn't unheard of for lagoons and rivermouths to be used or converted into harbors through constructing barriers like jetties, dredging out waterways, and other efforts.

So I should pay special attention to the above two things when doing the future thread. Anything (other than water depth, which I cut before I thought about it) else that I may need to know/ask about? I want to get a good thread, that provides (eventually) a 'one-stop-shopping' kind of experience.

The direction the harbor faces and how big the opening is are important as that dictates how ships will move, the dimensions they have to operate in, and how many can move through the passage at any given time. That also dictates the kind of currents the ships will be facing during the passage. Pretty much every active port worth its salt uses harbor pilots, highly experienced mariners who are familiar with local sea conditions, to pilot ships when they are leaving port until they are ready to get underway as it is quite common for the constricted waterways of a harbor's entrance to have tricky, finnicky currents that vary from place to place.

So now I have to ask, what are the differences (or are there any) between wharves, docks and Piers and a 'Quays'? I have seen raised wooden platforms referred to as docks, but is this correct?

A dock is a place where you can tie up your ship to keep it in place. It's basically like a parking space for maritime vessels. Docking a boat is the action of bringing your boat up to a dock and tying it up to stay in place.

A pier is any kind of long, usually wooden, structure that projects out into the water. A pier can also be and usually is referred to as a dock if that pier is primarily used as a dock.

A wharf is a place, which can be on a structure projecting out into the water or that is along the shoreline, where cargo is loaded and unloaded. The difference between a dock and a wharf is docks are used to "park" your vessel while wharves are specifically meant for loading and unloading goods from any vessel docked at that particular wharf.

A quay is a physical structure, made out of wood or concrete usually, that is specifically meant for being used as a wharf. Quays can project out into the water, like piers can, or be a reinforced area along the shoreline.

What are: jetties, artificial reefs? Something like a breakwater, to stop waves?

Jetties are large barriers made out of gravel and earth that project into the water. Jetties are used to either channel, deflect, or halt the movement of water through a specific area in a harbor. These are often used to reinforce the mouths of harbors and to create artificial harbors.

Artificial reefs are reefs that are created usually by sinking a decommissioned vessel or other large amounts of material offshore to create a reef. Artificial reefs can be used for similar purposes to jetties but if this is done in a harbor it is usually in conjunction with jetties and other barriers. They can also be used to create good surfing spots :cool:

So an Anchorage is something between a Harbor (without cargo facilities) and a Port (with large amounts of cargo handling capacity? Thanks.

More like an anchorage is a different use for a harbor than a port. A port is a thing that is located within a harbor, the harbor itself is a geographic feature that is either natural or man-made. An anchorage is a place where you can safely anchor your ship, a mooring is something similar as a place where you can tie up your ship for mooring. It is quite common for there to be small moorings and anchorages used as resupply points but these are not ports as they are not involved in the actual movement of goods to or from ships in large numbers with the exception of stuff like food and fuel for passing vessels.

As I so far understand it, the slipways were (are) the 'bottlenecks' for building large ships?

Yes. You can't build more ships than you have slips to house them and slipways to launch them from.

If you approve, I will ask your permission to use the above as quotes in the information thread as a starting point.

Sure go for it :)
 
Also, what in the heck is an 'atoll' compared to an island? I have found a few on bing maps, but they look like just a semicircular bit of land enclosing a patch of water. Also, what is a 'Bay', and do they have any thing about they that would need to be covered from the point of geographical or infrastructual? And after catching up on others posts, what is a 'Lagoon', and how is it different?
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
Also, what in the heck is an 'atoll' compared to an island? I have found a few on bing maps, but they look like just a semicircular bit of land enclosing a patch of water. Also, what is a 'Bay', and do they have any thing about they that would need to be covered from the point of geographical or infrastructual?
Atolls are a geological thing.

Okay, so you have an island (a volcanic one) somewhere warm.
Coral grows around it. This is a reef.
Over time, the island is eroded away, and sinks - but the coral is self-regrowing, so it stays at the same height, roughly where the shoreline of the island used to be.
That's an atoll.

Thanks. Does he already have such a thread here?


Not that I'm aware of.
 
You're not incorrect, I think the terminology is imprecise.

For example I think a harbour is a good anchorage, due to it's sheltered nature and if other factors are right such as deep water close enough to useable land the harbour-anchorage will be developed into a port with jetties and other infrastructure.

Or you can have a Port, with no Harbor

Port of Lewiston, in Idaho is such an example.

A seaport, over 450 miles from the Pacific Ocean


http://billingsgazette.com/business...cle_8ae2daa0-978a-11df-a49a-001cc4c002e0.html
 
Or you can have a Port, with no Harbor

Port of Lewiston, in Idaho is such an example.

A seaport, over 450 miles from the Pacific Ocean

http://billingsgazette.com/business...cle_8ae2daa0-978a-11df-a49a-001cc4c002e0.html
I think we already had one of those mentioned up thread, but your post makes me realise that I am going to have to make either one thread, or 2-3 threads, as river traffic and lake traffic, as seperate from ocean traffic. Nah, I'll just have to make sure to include them in the main thread. Thanks. I am already getting better input here than I got with the 'big gun history' thread, but then this does have much more useful prospects.
 
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