Some questions about the Wends.

Zioneer

Banned
So I've recently been interested in the Wends (or Sorbs, if you prefer), the Slavic culture directly about Germany that was fairly prevalent in the 1000s to 1200s. However, I can't find much information on the usual sources, so I am going to ask AH.com the questions I have.

Firstly, are there any lists of a Wendish language on the Internet? If not, do any AH.commers know any important words in the Wendish vocabulary?

Secondly, how did the Wends generally fight? I've read that they were basically taught Viking-style raiding techniques, and that they fought alongside Charlemagne against the Saxons. However, there isn't much info I can find beyond that.

Third, I understand that the Wends clung to their pagan traditions to differentiate themselves from the Germans. However, if one of their post-Gottschalk, pre-Duchy of Mecklenburg converted to Christianity, and he and his descendants were a strong force in the Wendish lands for a while, what type of culture would the Wends retain?

Fourth and finally, I know the Germans would call the Wendish lands something like "Wendland", but what would the Wends (being semi-Slavic) call their land themselves?

Thanks in advance.
 

Susano

Banned
Well, the Wends were not one people, so what theyd call their land and what language they speak would differ. I also dont think they "clung to paganism" to differenciate from the Germans - one doesnt simply give up a generations old religious tradition, and thats sufficient reason. In fact, nationality politics played pretty much no role at all - Germanification of the region, as historically happened, was merely a side result of the Christification process.

Of course, since that is so, German settlers most likely would have found their way to those regions anyways, even under a strong slavic ruler converting to Christianity, 1) as a stable Christian base from which to expand this faith and 2) for economical reasons, to import craft, mining and farming skills. Thats pretty much how Silesia became Germanified IOTL.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Well, the Wends were not one people, so what theyd call their land and what language they speak would differ. I also dont think they "clung to paganism" to differenciate from the Germans - one doesnt simply give up a generations old religious tradition, and thats sufficient reason. In fact, nationality politics played pretty much no role at all - Germanification of the region, as historically happened, was merely a side result of the Christification process.

Of course, since that is so, German settlers most likely would have found their way to those regions anyways, even under a strong slavic ruler converting to Christianity, 1) as a stable Christian base from which to expand this faith and 2) for economical reasons, to import craft, mining and farming skills. Thats pretty much how Silesia became Germanified IOTL.

Hmm... What if the Wendish group the Christian leader belonged to colonized throughout the Wendland, and managed to remove most of the other Wendish tribes? As well as having a light policy of... "Wendification"?
 
Well, their distinct culture has survived. But I think it would be difficult (though not impossible) for them to survive as their own country.
 
As for the language, AFAIK there are very little Wendish written texts preserved.

Polish Wikipedia article has some, more than the English one. I know it's not something to be trusted, but even Polish nationalists got to have something better to do than editing articles about long dead languages, at least so I hope... You won't find anythinng much better than that, though.

It says that all that's left from them is Pater Noster and a wedding song, both written down by Germans and with German alphabet

This is the Pater Noster:

Aita nos, tâ toi jis wâ nebesai, sjętü wordoj tüji jaimą;
tüji rik komaj; tüja wüľa mo są ťüńot kok wâ nebesai tok no zemi; nosę wisedanesnę sťaibę doj nam dâns; a wütâdoj nam nose greche,
kok moi wütâdojeme nosim gresnarem; ni bringoj nos wâ warsükongę;
toi losoj nos wüt wisokag chaudag. Pritü tüje ją tü ťenądztwü un müc un câst, warchni Büzac, nekąda in nekędisa. Amen.

There was actually a Wendish ethnic group that survived until fairly recently, the Drevani. They lived southeast from Hamburg. This guy wrote a chronicle and a vocabulary of their language, the Polish wiki article has some more data on them.

The most powerful Wendish political entity was, AFAIK, the Veletian Union, so you could use how they called themselves if you'll need that. Apparently, they also called them selves Wends, cause their language was called "wenska rec"

And the last thing, according to some linguists, their language was closely related with Kashubian , or rather: Kashubian is a surviving dialect of it, so maybe you could use that one.

EDIT: forgot to add, Sorbs are, at least here, considered to be a different group than the Wends of modern Brandenburg, Mecklenburg and Pommerania. I don't know the reasons for this.
 
If you just want an independent Sorbian state, and aren't too concerned about the POD...

Bohemia-Hungary doesn't fall under the Hapsburgs -> Bohemia-Hungary doesn't lose Lusatia -> Nationalism comes around, the use of the various West Slavic languages - including Sorbian - are promoted over German -> Bohemia-Hungary collapses -> independent Lusatia!
 
Problem with that is that Lusatia is a geographically poor place, mostly marshy, and well.. it's not material for a viable state.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Problem with that is that Lusatia is a geographically poor place, mostly marshy, and well.. it's not material for a viable state.

Wasn't the Netherlands marshy as well? And look where it is now.

Also, thanks for the help, everyone. I'm still not getting a lot of information, but hey, it's more then I started with.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Well the Wendish dialects has at this point only been seperate from the different West Slavic dialects for a few hundred years, so they have likely been similar enough to be seen as a single language today. It's important to understand that the word Wend was a Germanic term for the Transelbian people, and the Wends didn't see themself as a united people, but as Obotrites, Sorbs, Pommeranians etc.

Military they wasn't distinct from Danes or Saxons or the medieval germanic tribes, the biggest difference was the smaller size of their armies thanks to a lower population.

Agricultural are where we find the biggest distinction, Wends prefered loose sandy poor soil, this made it easy for Wends to spread because it was easy to start up a new farm in such land, but it also resulted in lower yield and a lower population density. The Germanics on the other hand prefered swamp and forest soil, this was harder to start a farm in, but the yield was higher, making it possible to support a higher population.

To the question what kind of culture they would keep if some of the Wends converted to Christianity and set up their own states. The answer are that they did so both Pommern and Mecklenburg was Wendish states which converted to Christianity and survived. The result was that they imported Saxon settlers to improve their tax base and they was assimilated by the Germans. There's different reason for this, while the Wendish noble kept Slavic names and likely have spoken Wendish to the 15th century, they fast became bilingual and intermarried heavily with Germans and Danes. The other was the German settlers, they was often given tax benefits for immigrating, while the native peasants slowly lost more and more rights and either assimilated into the richer (in material terms) German culture, or they ended up as poor isolated groups in low populated areas with poor soils (see Lüneburg heath or Lusatia). In the towns because of the German trade dominating position the Wendish mechants adopted German and intermarried with German mechant families. As such the the the slow disappearance of Wendish was almost unavoidable.
 

Zioneer

Banned
Alright, thanks again for info. But what if the Holy Roman Empire shattered for one reason or another, and the Germans fought amongst each other, instead of colonizing the Wendish lands?
 

Susano

Banned
it would be speak Danish instead.

Eh, somehow I cant see a Denmark stretching down to Cottbus :p But for the northern shore thats of course a strong possibility. As for the question of German infighting, eh, the eastern marches did collapse in the 10th century, and had then to be reconquered. So it stands to reason that once the fights in the HRE are over, heads will turn eastwards again, so to say.

Now, after we all have been so critical and negative :D Id like to say that I think it is definitely possibile for a Christian, Wendish nation arising in the East Elbian lands. It just wouldnt be the most probable outcome, as it would have to somehow circumvent all the pitfalls listed in here. One way to avoid the "problem" of German east settlement is maybe the fate of the socalled Forrest Germans - very early (before the main settlement waves came that far) German settlers in Poland who over time got assimilated into Poland. Of course, Poland had a somewhat higher economical and cultural standing than the Wendes, and the German speaking main lands were further away, but as invitation to German settlements for economical reasons can hardly be avoided, maybe the "solution" is to have those settlers be assimilated into Wendic culture over time, instead of the other way round... of course, that also poses the problem of "how"...
 
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