Some Market Garden changes

Which dykes are you referring to? The sea dykes won't matter as the area in question is not below sea level. The river waal is 8 meters above sea level at nijmegen for example. The area is subject to river flooding, but not much in september as the rivers are down. Blowing up the dykes would basically screw fortress holland, but all that would do is secure the western flank of the allied advance, as the garrison of holland would be under 20 ft of water. Spring would suck, but the allies would not be impeded much in the fall.

Actually mild flooding off the courses of the Maas and Rhine would help them as that would secure their eastern flank as well.

The dikes along the Mass farther south that would still be held by the germans which would cause a domino effect down the line and cause the others in allied controlled territory to fail and for the river to crest and flood the country side (especially the territory between the Maas and the Rhine which is extremely narrow where the allied spearheads where)

Model wouldn't want to attack them from the south(in Holland itself), he would use his reserves on the east bank of the rhine to attack the spearheads inside Germany who would be struggling with difficult supply lines and probably numerical inferiority
 
But as mentioned this is not flood season, so until the winter/spring rains start, any river flooding will be minimal in effect, and limited to turning the polder in the immediate vicinity of the blown dykes into very shallow lakes constrained by the still existing dyke system. There isn't enough water for the secondary dykes upstream to suffer immediate failure until winter or the spring, if even then. They are designed so as to not fail after such an event after all, and the allies have the engineering capacity to reinforce the ones they do hold. The raised roads will act as dykes as well, and they are above the maximum height of river flooding, so Allied supply across them should be unaffected in the short to medium term, especially once VIII and XII Corps clear the secondary roads, which IOTL was ongoing and complementary to the main action. The effect you predict may happen, but it will take months to develop. The time of year is wrong for it.

Given that the terrain beyond Arnhem is much drier and more raised, if the Allies get tanks across the Neder Rhine, the Germans will have much more difficulty stopping or delaying them than they did in the softer ground further south, as the British are no longer limited in axis of advance.

I won't say that the great sweep across the NGP is inevitable, but it is possible.
 
Anyways, now that we have established salt water isn't an issue. :rolleyes:


Do the Germans actually have any advantage if they attack through the Netherlands instead of through the Ardennes during the winter '44-'45?
 
But as mentioned this is not flood season, so until the winter/spring rains start, any river flooding will be minimal in effect, and limited to turning the polder in the immediate vicinity of the blown dykes into very shallow lakes constrained by the still existing dyke system. There isn't enough water for the secondary dykes upstream to suffer immediate failure until winter or the spring, if even then. They are designed so as to not fail after such an event after all, and the allies have the engineering capacity to reinforce the ones they do hold. The raised roads will act as dykes as well, and they are above the maximum height of river flooding, so Allied supply across them should be unaffected in the short to medium term, especially once VIII and XII Corps clear the secondary roads, which IOTL was ongoing and complementary to the main action. The effect you predict may happen, but it will take months to develop. The time of year is wrong for it.

Given that the terrain beyond Arnhem is much drier and more raised, if the Allies get tanks across the Neder Rhine, the Germans will have much more difficulty stopping or delaying them than they did in the softer ground further south, as the British are no longer limited in axis of advance.

I won't say that the great sweep across the NGP is inevitable, but it is possible.


The Germans still had a pretty decent amount of frontage on the meuse/maas itself and could blow the dikes farther south for miles and miles to create the domino cascading effect. Look at 3rd ypres fought over similar terrain (including september fighting) The summer of 1944 had some pretty fair sized storms and winter came early and viciously... even if the overall effect is delayed by a few weeks, it will eventually hit the break point (especially when you add bombing and shellfire to the mix beyond strait German sabotage)

And the great sweep in sept is impossible. The British, even if they get across are tired from months of relentless combat, and short on infantry replacements (not to mention after such a pitched battle a lot of their equipment will be down for maintainence, its not like monty had a reputation for rapid exploitation)... nor are the American's in a particular spot to help, the 1st army at that time was wasting its precious infantry strength in Hurtgen and Patton was stymied before Metz and his troops where exhausted... even without flooding 21st army group would have an extremely difficult time supplying that far forward and wouldn't be poised to resume the offensive for many weeks, and remember 6-8 weeks after market garden all german reserve divisions are in their readiness state for wacht on rhine or whatever alternate counter offensive model proposes (I assume he would want to smash the bridgehead so he could base his defense in the spring on the rhine)
 
I won't say that the great sweep across the NGP is inevitable, but it is possible.
The thing is, the Great Sweep was originally envisaged as a force of "40 Divisions, so strong that nothing may withstand them". Any great sweep after Arnhem would, at most, see the nine divisions of the British 2nd Army, and a couple of American Corps. The Canadians are still slugging it out with the German 15th Army, and the American 1st and 3rd Armies are committed in the Hurtgern and around Metz respectively.
 
The thing is, the Great Sweep was originally envisaged as a force of "40 Divisions, so strong that nothing may withstand them". Any great sweep after Arnhem would, at most, see the nine divisions of the British 2nd Army, and a couple of American Corps. The Canadians are still slugging it out with the German 15th Army, and the American 1st and 3rd Armies are committed in the Hurtgern and around Metz respectively.

And let's not forget all the supplies have to go through Red Ball Express (not the most efficient logistical system ever devised) because ANTWERP has not been opened...

Marc A
 
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