Sociopolitical and cultural-technological progress of China if Rome survives

General Zod

Banned
Hello, this is meant to be a sister thread to an existing one where the issue of which sociopolitical and cultural-technological developments would have occurred in the Roman Empire if it had survived. This instead focuses on the Chinese side of the issue.

The main assumption is that this is a plausible best case scenario where both Rome and China survive as functional centralized empires, steadily evolve and modernize socially, politically, culturally, and technologically, both on their own and as a result of ongoing extensive trade and cultural exchanges since the 2nd century CE, and become the main global superpowers up to modern times (the theory that centralized empires are inexorably prone to cultural stagnation, and political fragmentation is necessary for steady cultural progress, is hereby deemed to be sheer idiocy).

The divergence is assumed to be Roman conquest of Central Europe in the 1st century, which causes Roman conquest of Parthia in the 2nd century, establishment of extensive and steady cultural and trade exchanges with China since the 2nd century, a momentum for steady cultural progress in both Empires, and Rome successfully weathering crisis points like the 3rd Century crisis, the Hun invasion, and the Justinian plague, as a result.

The sister thread has been discussing the social, political, cultural, and technological developments in the Roman Empire, and a TL has been created as a result of the ideas proffered. This thread is meant to discuss which social, political, cultural, and technological developments occur in the Chinese Empire as a result of steady and extensive cultural, technological, and trade exchanges with Rome since the 2nd century, and the gradual development of superpower imperial competition in Eurasia, and eventually create a TL which gives adequate coverage to both Empires.

Since the issue focuses on broad sociopolitical and cultural developments, the discussion and the TL are kept to a rather high degree of abstraction, analyzing century-by-century trends and big events, rather than the minutiae of individual emperors' careers and the like.
 

General Zod

Banned
For reference, this is a copy of the current version of the TL, as it concerns Roman developments:

Imperium Aeternum, v 1.2 (0-800 CE)


1st Century CE: The Roman Empire conquers Germania, Bohemia, Dacia, Nubia, Britannia-Caledonia, and Hibernia. In Northern Europe, only Scandinavia remains outside Rome’s control. During the reign of Augustus, the Romans get a long string of victories in Germania, annexing it up to the Elbe. A victorious war spurred by Nubian invasion grants control of Nubia as well. This builds a momentum under Tiberius and Claudius that leads to the annexation of Bohemia, Dacia, and Germania Magna up to the Vistula-Carpathians-Dneister line. The assimilation of Germania and Dacia follows the pattern of Gallia and Hispania in the previous centuries: there are a couple crushed rebellion attempts and some decades of unrest, then those areas area settle down in long-term peace and the onset of Romanization. The conquest of Britannia occurs in the second half of the century, as the new Northern provinces are settling down, and is soon followed by the conquest of Caledonia as well, when the Emperor and the local generals decide that complete annexation of the island would reduce the bruden of garrisoning yet another border. At the closing of the century, when the ongoing settlement of Germania and Dacia is reducing the military burden in the North (alsi thanks to hte new shorter border) and it allows to recuirt massive numbers of new German auxiliares, the Empire starts a new round of expansion as Hibernia is conquered and a massive campaign against Parthia is prepared.

The borders of the Empire are established at the Vistula-Carpathians-Dniester line in Eastern Europe, and the confluence of the Blue Nile and the White Nile in Africa. Romanization of Northern Europe starts in earnest as the conquests and the urge to make good use of all that new and underexploited land spurs the discovery of various technological improvements (heavy plough, three-field system, horse collar) which allow extensive development of Northern Europe. Control of Amber sources in Northern Germania and iron-rich Germanic provinces benefits Rome economically as well.

The Roman state undergoes the renovation and expansion of the Suez Canal. The waterway significantly improves trade with India and the efficiency of military communications for future expansion in Africa and Parthia. Success of the project (which cause the lock to be developed) pushes various Emperors to undergo a vast program of canal construction in Northern Europe. Over the next two centuries, the Roman road system is expanded to Northern Europe and an extensive canal system is built and gradually extended to link the Rhine, Scheldt, Meuse, Seine, Loire, Rhone, Saone, and Garonne rivers in Gallia, and the Rhine, Weser, Elbe, Oder, and Vistula rivers in Germania. Other canals are also built in Germania and Dacia to link the Rhine with the Danube (as Roman engineers master the technique of summit level canals), the Elbe and the Oder with the Danube, and the Vistula with the Dniester.

2nd Century CE: The Roman Empire conquers Mesopotamia and makes vassals out of Persia, Arabia, Aksum, and several tribal confederations in Western Sarmatia. The legions freed up from the shortened borders in Europe and the expanded size of the Auxiliary corps allow Trajan to crush Parthia decisively in a series of quick campaigns. Some rebellions from Judea, Cyprus, Alexandria, and Cyrene, which occur during Trajan's Parthian expedition, are also suppressed in short order, thanks to the extra manpower. The peace treaty turns Mesopotamia and Armenia into Roman provinces and the rest of parthai into a vassal kingodm of Rome. The new border in the East is set at the Zagros mountains. During the rest of the century, other minor campaigns extend the borders of the Nubia province to the Sudd and the Ethiopian Highlands and make Aksum, coastal and northern Arabia, and several Slavic tribal confederations in western Sarmatia in other vassals of Rome. Heavy development of Northern Europe is ongoing from Romanized natives as well as colonists and veterans from other parts of the Empire being settled in the new provinces, as the new agricultural technologies cause a strong increase of agricultural yield, tax revenues, and population throughout the area.

News from conquered Parthia about a mighty and sophisticated civilization in the Far East spurs Rome to send a flotilla of triremes and liberunes to seek contact with China. The voyage is nothing short of epic, and lasts a little more than a year, as the fleet reaches India, reprovisions, and follows the coasts of South East Asia up to China and back. But the rewards are huge, as the Roman enyos make official diplomatic contact with Han China, whose dignitaries are impressed by the powerful stragers coming from the far West. In a few years, regular diplomatic contacts and trade deals are established across Central Asia by land and by sea routes across India and South East Asia. Both civilizations greately benefit from the strong trade links and from the groundbreaking technological exchanges that gradually follow.

It is a time of significant technological progress as well: various important discoveries are first adopted and gradually mastered and spread through the Empire over the next two centuries from improved contacts with India and China through Persia (papermaking, blast furnace & cast iron, seed drill, hand crank, crossbow, woodblock printing) or independently development (wheelbarrow, abacus, caliper, waterwheel & watermill, solid-treed saddle & stirrups, iron horseshoes, cranes). On its turn, China gains knowledge of concrete, glassware, reverse-overshot type waterwheels, balistas, onagers, plumbing, and screw presses.

3rd Century CE: it is a time of crisis in the Roman Empire as civil wars, climactic changes, and plagues strike the Empire. A dynastic change in Persia, with the takeover of the anti-Roman Sassanids, causes it to break away from Roman control and make inroads into Armenia, Syria, and Mesopotamia. However, the territorial and economic expansion and the technological improvements of the last two centuries prevent the crisis from causing the irreversible economic and social damage that the Empire would have suffered in their absence. By the last part of the Century, the political unity of the Empire and its Eastern borders have been firmly reestablished, as the upstart Sassanids are pushed back beyond the Zagros.

At the start of century, Roman citizenship is granted to all free subjects of the Empire.

Extensive reforms are applied to deal with the issues of the crisis which largely stabilize and benefit the Empire in the long term:
- A professional scholar bureaucracy is created, with recruitment through competitive examinations on the Chinese model, to balance the influence of the professional military and its military administrative arm; the two branches of the civil service share responsibilities with varying degrees of authority in different areas of the empire, and often exchange personnel, especially with the military branch "retiring" in the civilian service through a preferential recruitment channel.
- A new specialized military corps in Italy (the Legio I Italica) is created to be a counterweight for the Praetorian Guard (and vice-versa).
- A system of strong property rights with lease and usufruct contracts for land development akin to sharecropping is created. Reform of land ownership combines the recognition of private ownership and the rewarding of cultivators with a harvest share commensurate with their efforts. A tax reform lifts restrictions to finance and commerce and establishes property titles as the assessment basis; this encourages the wealthy elites away from absentee landholding and in intensive development of agriculture and related pursuits like pottery and brick-making, mining, quarrying, and forestry. Over time this also gradually encourages investment in trade and industry as a “secondary” source of income, such as factory tanneries, textile manufacture, pottery workshops and such as part of the landed estate, and trade as part of the sales and raw materials purchasing channels.
- The Army is restructured to create a mobile force, and the provisions are strengthened to grant discharged veterans substantial land grants in the provinces when they discharge, both in the less developed areas of the Empire and from the vast estates expropriated because of the civil wars.
- With the extension of the citizenship, the recruitment pool of the Auxiliares has been largely drying up, so they are reformed to become a militia-reserve corps manned by veteran legionaries who ended their regular military service along with local cohorts recruited as militias and law enforcement corps in the non-militarized provinces or amongst trusted allies and maercenary forces from beyond the border in frontier provinces. They support enlisted legionaries by training recruits, policing rear areas, garrisoning forts and other rear-echelon duties, and form the backbone of a second-tier defensive system and law-enforcement network that spans the Empire (performing duties as city watchmen and highway patrols against banditry). Existing forms of local law enforcement and control, either military (stationarii, beneficiarii, vigiles) or local (paraphylakes, diogmitai, iuventutes, doryphoroi) are gradually incorporated in this system. In emergency situations, the veteran troops in the Auxiliares may be recalled into active service in the legions.
- To compensate veterans for the extended service, legionaries are given full rights of conubium - full legal marriage - with a woman, and legitimacy with their children.
- With the extension of citizenship, the existing system of consultative provincial assemblies and legations to the central governemnt is strenghtened and extended throught the Empire. Each province has meetings of representatives of the ruling classes of the province at a significant cultic centre at which issues get be discussed, loyal proclamations issued, petitions presented, and ceremonies held. The provincial assembly (or local cities if they get the assembly's permission, especially if legations from competing cities would present their cases against each other) regularly sends a legation of highly qualified, influential and smart men to Rome to present the Emperor with a proclamation of loyalty on every session (they meet annually or at longer, but regular, intervals, sometimes coinciding with sacred games) and uses the opportunity to send their petitions and grievances along. The legation stays in Rome more or less permanently and only returns to report to the next assembly. Over time this shall grow into an informal but effective representation of the provinces, which shall eventually get formalized into a representative body eclipsing the Senate in importance, and alongside with the new meritocratic professional civil service, strengthens the ties between the provinces and the central government.

4th Century: A revitalized Roman Empire begins a new cycle of expansion and significant technological progress. It reaps the benefits from the reforms, two centuries of Romanization of Northern Europe, as well as some technological improvements that better the quality of Roman cavalry and archery. Western Sarmatia is conquered, and Persia is re-invaded and annexed to the Empire for good. The borders of the Empire are moved to the Daugava and Dnieper rivers in Eastern Europe, and the Oxus and the Indus in Central Asia. Over the next two centuries, with interruptions due to nomadic invasions, the Roman road system is extended to Western Sarmatia and the canal system is gradually expanded to link the Vistula with the Niemen, Daugava, and Dnieper, as well as the Danube with the Dniester and Dnieper. As Northern Europe is becoming more and more populous and economically developed, the Romanization of Eastern Europe is begun in turn.

Several technological innovations are introduced in this period and gradually spread in the Empire over the next two centuries, including mobile type printing, artesian wells, grindstones, horizontal loom, distillation, wine press, soap, water hammer, arched saddle, longbow, spurs.

Renewed confidence of the Roman people in their society results into the strong revitalization of European polytheism: the various polytheistic religious that exists within the Empire (Greco-Roman, Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Baltic, Semitic, Egyptian, etc.) are merged into an inclusive syncretistic “Romanist” system and pantheon, which borrows strong pantheistic and monistic elements from Roman philosophy (especially Stoicism and Epicureanism), Buddhism, and Hinduism. It develops the doctrine that an universal immanent divine force exists, which creates fate and natural law, and the various gods are self-aware universal archetypal expressions of natural law, who wear different faces and names in different cultures, and may partially affect fate and natural law in their respective fields of responsibility. Greco-Roman and Middle Eastern mystery cults and monotheistic religions (such as Christianity and Mithraism) begin to lose influence and popularity or to be gradually absorbed into Romanism.

A system of unitary procedure and law, with recognized authorities to provide legal opinion and formalized educational institutions for practitioners, is developed.

Legal reforms create increasingly complex financial instruments in trade, banking and investment, including limited liability and full legal personage, and different legal systems for slavery: 'house' slaves are provided with an extended set of legal rights and become trusted retainers who act as commercial agents, estate administrators, and other vital functionaries, perform paramilitary functions, provide skilled labor and ultimately form a stratum of 'ministerial' upper class, while 'chattel' slaves remain a labor reserve or luxury consumption good (ever more costly, but ultimately disposable).

A toned-down form of temporary "house slavery" is developed to provide apprenticeship: A house-born slave (verna) who shows promise in youth is trained, either in-house or by being lent or sold to someone who has use for him (trade in gifted children is brisk). Once he has the required skills (as an accountant, merchant, administrator, physician, artisan or whatever), he works for the profit of his owner. These people only change hands rarely, and if they do it is for large sums. Traditionally, after ten to fifteen years of service (in comfortable quarters and nice conditions, with some informal pay), they are granted their freedom and continue to work for their masters, now for pay. Some may strike out on their own, though they are still bound to them by legal ties (may not compete with them or act against their interests). Many former owners provide seed capital for their freedmen. Many free-born but poor children join a modified form of this system by temporary slavery contracts that provide legally-enforceable guarantees of liberation after a fixed term of service and of personal freedom for the temporary “apprentice slave”.

5th Century: Various groups of Central Asian nomads unify in the Huns confederation and make a massive breakout in Western Sarmatia and Dacia. The effort to contain them taxes the Empire for the good part of the century. However, by now Rome has the internal stability and military resources to reduce the Huns to nothing more than a decades-long big border headache, instead of a deadly threat (better cavalry and archery allow the Legions, who have maintained their original excellent quality, to be an effective match for nomad breakouts). Eventually the Huns are defeated and repelled by the Roman legions, using combined arms tactics between heavy cavalry and archers. After the Hun breakout, the Emperors intensify the efforts to extend the Roman canal system into Western Sarmatia and develop the region with settlement of the Germanic and Slavic native populations and colonists from other areas of the Empire. This results in gradual unsystematic Roman expansion in Eastern Sarmatia, as the legions expand their control to buffer the border defense against the nomads and go in pursuit of defeated Huns. The Bosporan kingdom is annexed to the Empire. Repeated Persian uprisings are suppressed and eventually Persia subsides into an uneasy peace as Romanization of the region begins in earnest. Roman power also spreads into Africa and the Middle East as coastal Arabia and Aksum are annexed to the Roman Empire.

The Romanist religion spreads to become the faith of the majority of the Roman Empire's population in the West and the plurality in the East. A kind of informal religious leadership for Romanism is gradually established both as a subset of the civil service and as a body of scholars that combine expertise in classical literature (especially as relevant to mythology), law, philosophy, and religious ritual. Gradually the body of lore expected from Romanist scholars grows to include logic, mathematics, and empirical expertise in medicine and natural philosophy as well. Romanist scholars undergo a vast effort to organize an extensive corpus of Greco-Roman literature and philosophy relevant to Romanism, and to integrate it with the compiled oral literature from other traditions within the Empire, such as the Celtic, Germanic, and Slavic cultures. Mystery cults largely fall in obscurity as the vast majority of their following is absorbed by Romanism. Middle Eastern monotheistic and dualistic religions (Christianity, Manichaeism, Zoroastrianism) steadily keep losing influence and following within the Empire, as many Roman citizens come to see such “alien” religions as a distasteful expression of disloyalty to Roman culture, and Emperors heavily tax followers of religions who refuse to give allegiance to Rome and the Emperor in Romanist ceremonies (Christianity, Zoroastrianism).

The "Roman Agricultural Revolution" takes off. Roman traders and explorers travel across most of the Old World, and establish an early global economy across most of Asia and Africa and all of Europe, with their trade networks extending from the Atlantic Ocean and Mediterranean Sea in the west to the Indian Ocean and China Sea in the east. The global economy established by Roman traders across the Old World, enables the diffusion of many crops and farming techniques among different parts of the Roman world, as well as the adaptation of crops and techniques from and to regions beyond the Roman world. Hundreds of new crops are diffused throughout Roman lands, which previously had not grown these crops, as a result of the Roman Agricultural Revolution. Some of these crops include rye, sugar cane, rice, citrus fruit, apricots, bananas, coconut palms, cotton, aubergines, saffron, lemons, sour oranges, eggplants, limes, almonds, figs, sorghum, mangos, artichokes, spinach, carrots, hard wheat, colocasia, plantains, and watermelons, among hundreds of other crops. Romans start developing a scientific approach to agriculture based on three major elements: sophisticated systems of crop rotation, where land is cropped four or more times in a two-year period, highly developed irrigation techniques, using machines such as norias, water mills, water raising machines, dams and reservoirs, which allow to greatly expand the exploitable land area, and the introduction of a large variety of crops which are studied and catalogued according to the season, type of land and amount of water they require. Manufacture of silk spreads in the Roman Empire.

Technological progress continues, with the diffusion of many numerous innovative industrial uses of water mills, early industrial uses of tidal power, wind power, and fossil fuels such as petroleum, and the earliest large factory complexes. A variety of industrial mills are invented in the Roman world, including fulling mills, gristmills, hullers, paper mills, sawmills, ship mills, stamp mills, steel mills, sugar mills, tide mills, and windmills. Roman engineers also invent crankshafts, connecting rods, and water turbines, first employ gears in mills and water-raising machines, and pioneer the use of dams as a source of water power, used to provide additional power to watermills and water-raising machines.

Rural slavery changes as well as a result of the economic and legal changes: latifundia rural labourers become more akin to serfs than chattel slaves. They are granted some more personal rights, but their freedom of movement is still restricted. They live in estate enclosed villages, forming a nerwork of sub communities, which are managed by a freedman steward, whom worked his way to his position, and lives in a bigger house than his former kind, whom either live in huts or in slave-barracks. Records are kept on slave families, individuals, and their relations, and they are sometimes moved around the estate, or traded to other estates, to prevent inbreeding. Every now and then, children from the slave families may be collected by servants of the landlord to become either new household staff, or perform seasonal work on the lords villa/manor. Gifted or surplus children may be sold on through the market system, ad enter the urban household slavery system, where they are given to professionals as slave-apprentices, or given as rewards to the landlords social clients. Slaves from beyond the Empire serve alongside condemned criminals in dangerous occupations, such as mining and gladiatorial combat.

Educational institutions for legal practitioners begin to transform under the influence of Romanist scholarship into a full-fledged higher education system as they provide education into other subjects. Their curriculum grows to include law, medicine, philosophy, Romanist classics, mathematics, grammar, rhetoric, logic, astronomy, accounting, architecture/engineering, and natural philosophy.

6th Century: Roman expansion in Eastern Sarmatia continues as the Empire faces and successfully repels the encroachment in southern Sarmatia by another Central Asian nomad confederation, the Avars. Roman legions are able to use the military tactics they have mastered against the Huns, to very good effect. The new nomad threat increases the interest of the Imperial government to build up Eastern Sarmatia as a strong frontier bulwark. A continuous border is established on the Don river and the control of the Empire is extended throughout the Baltic region up to the Volkhov-Lovat line. Efforts are started to connect the new territories in Eastern Sarmatia to the Roman road and canal system and start their settlement, as the development of Western Sarmatia proceeds to a brisk pace. Roman colonization of vast Sarmatia is steady but gradual and mostly centers in the fertile lands of Ukraine and southern Russia from the Caspian to the Black Sea, as well as the amber-rich and fertile areas of the Baltic coast. Revolts in Arabia and Aksum are ruthlessly quelled. Roman control is extended throughout the Arabian peninsula and the Ethiopian highlands. Plague hits again the Empire, delaying expansion in Asia as the plans for invasion of India are shelved. The plague heightens interest into medicine and natural philosophy in Roman culture.

Many industries are generated due to the Roman Agricultural Revolution, including the earliest industries for agribusiness, astronomical instruments, ceramics, chemicals, distillation technologies, clocks, glass, mechanical hydro-powered and wind-powered machinery, matting, mosaics, pulp and paper industry, perfumery, petroleum, pharmaceuticals, rope-making, shipping, shipbuilding, silk, sugar, textiles, weapons, and the mining of minerals such as sulfur, ammonia, lead and iron. The first large factory complexes are built for many of these industries. The Roman domestic water system is improved, with a the development of a widespread network of sewers, public baths, drinking fountains, piped drinking water supplies, and widespread private and public toilet and bathing facilities in all cities.

Two types of economic systems are developing in parallel in the Roman world. Command economy and politically-driven investment by the government bureaucracy and military, most prominent in newly-acquired and far-off provinces, prompt agricultural development and colonization of under-exploited lands, typically combining the settlement of veterans and colonists in state colonies and in individual land grants, building and extension of the road network, the canal network in Europe, and the irrigation system in the Middle East, as well as the establishment of an extensive postal system. At the same time, the first market economy and earliest forms of merchant capitalism, most prominent in the Mediterranean provinces, but also briskly expanding to Britannia, Gallia, and Germania, take root; a vigorous monetary economy is created on the basis of the expanding levels of circulation of a stable high-value currency (the denarius), with market-driven agricultural development, involving the spread of advice, education, and free seeds, and the introduction of high value crops or animals to areas where they were previously unknown, the development of an extensive international trade network, and widespread manufacturing. Innovative new business techniques and forms of business organization are introduced by economists, merchants and traders during this time. Such innovations include the earliest trading companies, big businesses, contracts, bills of exchange, long-distance international trade, the first forms of limited partnerships, the issuing of insurance, and the earliest forms of credit, debt, profit, loss, capital, capital accumulation, circulating capital, capital expenditure, revenue, cheques, promissory notes, trusts and charitable trusts, startup companies, savings accounts, transactional accounts, pawning, loaning, exchange rates, bankers, money changers, ledgers, deposits, assignments, the double-entry bookkeeping system, and lawsuits.

Technological progress steadily continues in the Roman world: new technologies that spread in the Empire include buttons, mirrors, rat traps, spectacles, spinning wheels, magnets, compass, counterweight trebuchets, astrolabes, rib vault, coffee, hang glider, hard soap, shampoo, nitric acid, alembic, valve, reciprocating, combination lock, quilting, pointed arch, and surgical catgut.

The formalized higher education system spreads throughout the Roman Empire and takes the shape of an informal “university” system as they develop an effective accreditation system through letters of commendation: Teachers would write those for promising students, and one would collect a number of them from a number of senior philosophers/doctors/architects/jurists/whatever until one is effectively one of their number. This gets official support by Imperial authority as the letters of commendation become a preferential title of merit for the civil service examinations and getting appointments in some branches of the military, and some branches of the civil service are accredited as the senior ranks of the commendation system (e.g. as jurisconsults of imperial authority or archiatroi). The students of the great institutions where the most accredited masters cluster become the academic elite, while the majority of accredited scholars walk out of provincial schools with letters of commendation detailing what they learned and from who.

The development of the “university” system, supported by Romanist culture, spurs a heightened empiric interest into logic, mathematics, natural philosophy, and medicine: notable scientific advances of the 6th-8th centuries include the first definitions of the scientific method, development of a decimal place value number system and the zero, systematization of arithmetic and algebra, solution of linear and quadratic equations, and those polynomials of higher degree that could be reduced to quadratics through substitution, first developments in differential calculus, the theory of impetus, the first integrated systematization of mechanics, optics and hydrodynamics, the development of chemistry, rediscovery of atomism, advances in trigonometry with the definition of the trigonometric functions, advances in surgery with the standardization of surgical instruments, the development of a mathematical scale to quantify the strength of drugs, and a system that would allow a doctor to determine in advance the most critical days of a patient's illness, the introduction of systematic experimentation and quantification into the study of physiology, the discovery of the contagious nature of infectious diseases, the introduction of quarantine to limit the spread of contagious diseases, and the introduction of experimental medicine and clinical trials.

Monotheistic religions have been marginalized to a tiny minority by Romanism in the West, and reduced to a minority in the Near and Middle East. Several riots occur in the Christian and Zoroastrian communities against the unfair tax burden these communities suffer. The Emperors and the Senate retaliate by enforcing several unfavorable property and inheritance codes on these religious minorities, which further accelerates their decline. Only the Jew minority apparently remains strong thanks to its close-knit community support system.

7th Century: The Empire gradually recovers from the effects of the plague. Repeated minor breakouts of Central Asian nomads in Eastern Sarmatia and Persia, always repelled, prompt the Empire to extend the border to the Volga and Jaxartes rivers. Renewed religious uprisings in Arabia are quelled by the Romans with large-scale repressions, enslavement, and deportations. Religious dissidence in the Near East and Persia gradually dies out as more and more of the Christian and Zoroastrian communities convert to Romanism to escape the unfavorable tax and property regime. The first major civil war (caused by a dynastic crisis) since the 3rd Century somewhat slows down the pace of Roman expansion, but this century still sees the first major inroad of the Roman Empire in India as Roman legions conquer Punjab, eastern Sind, Gujarat, and the western half of the Gangetic plains in a series of wars.

Notable technological developments of this period include the hourglass, mechanical clocks, dry compass, cross-staff, mariner's astrolabe, stern-mounted rudder, arch bridge, steel crossbow, and oil paint.

Despite the very good quality that the Roman road and canal system has achieved, the vast extension the Empire has reached and the growing amount of trade between different areas of the Roman world and beyond spur the interest of the military, civil service, and private traders into ways to make sea and land transport and communication more reliable and efficient.

By the end of this century Romanism has become the faith of the overwhelming majority of the population in the Roman Empire.

8th Century: Indian expansion represents the main political and military development of this period for the Roman Empire, as the Roman legions steadily enlarge the Imperial control of northern India, conquering Malwa, Bihar, Bengal, and the whole of the Indo-Gangetic Plain. Conquest of Rajastan, however, escapes the Empire, as Roman offensives fail to grasp control of the area.

Indian conquests expose the threat of overextension for the Empire, since the Roman road and canal system does not reach the Indian subcontinent and Roman seafaring capabilities are not fully up to the task. The issue appears to spark concern in the Roman ruling elite. As it concerns Eastern Sarmatia, this leads to a heightened effort to extend the road and canal system in the area (in due time, canals are built to link the Volkhov, Lovat, Dnieper, and Volga rivers in the north, and the Dnieper, Donets, Don, and Volga rivers in the south). There are many areas of the Empire, however, that cannot be effectively reached by the road-canal system, either for military, administrative, or trade purposes, so both the Imperial government and the Roman trading elites seek for supplementary solutions. On one hand, this spurs interest in developing more efficient seafaring technologies. The Romans have been significantly improving their navigational capabilities of late, for this reason, but now this results in a concerted effort to improve the quality of Roman shipbuilding, in order to develop a truly ocean-worthy navy. On the other hand, efforts to improve the quality of communications for military and administrative purposes result in the proposal of a comprehensive post riders network service to operate on a regular schedule throughout the Empire. The expenses to establish such a service are heavy, so the issue is hotly debated in the Imperial bureaucracy and the Senate. Eventually, the expense issue is surmounted when representatives of the trading elites in the Senate propose, and the imperial bureaucracy accept, to fund the system through a new tax in exchange for opening the service to private correspondence and business messages, too. All the while, serious effort is given by various Roman scholars and engineers to develop a reliable optical telegraph system, on the basis of the available, but less efficient, hydraulic telegraph systems.

By the last part of the century, a new threat surfaces for the Roman Empire, as the Norse barbarians from Scandinavia, so far deemed not really worth the effort of conquest by the Roman ruling elite, start to seriously harass the Roman world with frequent raids on towns laying on the coasts and along the rivers of Western, Northern, and Eastern Europe. This forces the Empire to expand the size of the military and redeploy several legions in the threatened areas. Although this contains the problem to a degree, it remains an insufficient and costly response, fueling the interest into building a truly ocean-worthy Navy for Rome and a reconsideration about the conquest of Scandinavia.

Roman expansion into northern India has several significant efforts for Roman society: on one hand, it significantly improves the Empire’s financial situation by reducing the amount of species that gets drained outside the Roman world to buy Indian luxury goods, and it somewhat spurs the scientific and technological progress of Rome in some fields (e.g. it accelerates the adoption of the decimal number system, and the mastery of some mathematical discoveries, such as negative numbers). On the other hand, it sparks a lively debate in the Roman elites about the relationship of Romanism to Hinduism and Buddhism. Obvious affinities between the three religious systems (also hearkening to the formative influences of Hinduism and, to a lesser degree, Buddhism on Romanism itself during its systematization) are easily recognized, so the reaction to undiluted Indian religions is nowhere so negative as to old Middle Eastern (now moribund) monotheistic systems. Romanist scholars express interest into Indian religion and philosophy, and explore integration of Indian philosophical systems and Hindu lore with Romanism. However, on the average Roman culture finds itself seriously at odds with the Indian concept of castes, since Roman society, while strongly hierarchical, fully espouses the concept of social mobility.

and these are some ideas that have been proffered about the political developments of the Chinese Empire:

First of all, as for China, I'm pretty sure that gunpowder would be invented there at least at the same time it was in OTL, or perhaps earlier in fact.

Politically, when contact with Rome occurs, it is important to point out exactly when the contact occurs. If contact occurs rather early in the 2nd century, up to around 150 AD, and the Han have a competent ruler, it would probably mean that the Han Dynasty lasts for another century or more. By the late 2nd century, however, China was in one of its cycles of a Dynasty in collapse, corrupt emperors, greedy eunuchs/officials/generals etc, and Roman contact will all but destroy the Han Dynasty, and thus Roman contact to China would be like European contact in Asia in the 19th century. (The Han collapsed around 220AD OTL).

More likely, with the way your timeline is structured, contact occurs sometime in the mid to late 100s, meaning it would be too late to prevent the fall of the Han Dynasty. There would probably still be a 'Three Kingdoms' period where China is in its usual century long process of civil War and eventual reunification. Fortunately for China in the 3rd century, Rome seems to be enduring its own process of rebellion, civil war, external threats, etc before reconsolidating, so it probably won't be until the end of the 3rd century or the beginning 4th century, once both these new Imperial orders are established, when trade and exchange of technology really gets going.

This new dynasty would probably be more agressive militarily, being the first to realize how Rome truly is a rival to China and thus engage in gradual wars of expansion. Under this dynasty, we might see military reforms that take some Roman ideas, and also they would take note how Rome is able to secure the loyalties of a diverse group of people throughout their Empire, and thus we'll probably see a Qing-style expansion that would push China's Empire to the borders with OTL Mongolia, to Tibet, and west into the steppes, that will probably extend the size of the Chinese Empire to that under the height of the Qing.

Of course, there is always going to be setbacks and rebellions along the way, so consolidation there would probably take a century at least. The Chinese, with all these new people, might start experimenting with the Roman slave system a bit, though most will probably become eunuchs as they usually did.

During this time, they'll probably expand their reach to encompass more tributary states and take steps to enforce it better. Still don't see expansion into India or oceanic voyages yet, the tech still is not there.

However, in the 5th century, you note the Huns being repelled by the Romans and being forced to the East. Since the Huns would probably still be strong enough to subdue or absorb any other state on its way east, they'll probably remain together as a viable political unit, until they reach China's border, and thus see its riches and want to invade there. Eventually, you might see a major Hun (the Huns, by this time, likely combined with a hodgepodge of Mongols, Turks, Zhungars, etc and perhaps familiar with Roman technology and organization, after the Huns experience with the Romans) invasion of China sometime in the 6th or 7th century.

You also mention a plague breaking out in Rome around the 6th century, so expect that to hit China as well and kill off like 15 million people or so, and that will probably be when the Huns launch their invasion of China.

Thus, the plague combined with the Hunnic invasion, and however many peasant rebellions that spring forth, it would probably spell the end for that dynasty. (Dynasties usually have a life cycle of 300-400 years in China), It would created another disunified period, where the Huns are eventually forced back into the wilderness, or the Huns might take over China all together and create a whole new dynasty.

So in the 7th century, you once again see consolidation of this new dynasty, with the reestablishment of its tributary system, and then it would probably be expanding more agressively as Rome by this time is encroaching upon India. You'll probably see Korea and southeast Asia annexed outright, with Japan becoming a full tributary state.

By the 8th century, you'll probably see China making inroads into India, and then you'll see tensions with Rome rising for the first time.

Again, those are just some of my ideas of how China would evolve politically in this new landscape.

As for culturally, technologically and socially, I'm afraid I can't help you as much.
 
A few more ideas:

In the Han Dynasty, merchants were viewed as lowly and contemptible by the ruling scholar-gentry class. They were not to purchase land, were forced to pay extra taxes, banned from public office and basically reduced to being street vendors. This is especially true with the registered merchants (unlike the unregistered merchants who were the J.P. Morgans of their day). However, if the Han Dynasty falls on schedule, and with large scale Roman contact occuring around 150-200, with the Han well into its dynastic disintegration, the next dynasty could bring a substantial attitude change toward the merchant class.

This attitude toward merchants was due to Confucianism, which put merchants at the bottom of the social hierachy (of course, this was not universally true, as really the peasants were at the bottom), and one of the reasons why China stagnated in the 18th century. If the following Dynasty removes this social stigma on the merchants, which becomes more likely after contact with Rome, then China is definitely on the path to superpowerdom.

I'd expect that even after contact with Rome, the scholar-gentry will continue to remain the ruling elites. The farmer and peasant class will also likely remain the same, except they might benefit from new crops that were introduced by the Romans.

There were also slaves in the Han dynasty, those that were privately owned and government owned. Privately owned slaves were those who had fallen into debt, while publicly owned slaves were prisoners of war or people given via the tributary system. As far as I know, its already pretty similar to the Roman slave system.


Militarily, China had a very powerful army that was adept at combating the nomads, beating the Huns time after time, and it was because of these defeats that probably forced the Huns west and to Rome in OTL (or ITTL to Rome in the 5th century). Therefore, in this regard, I think that the Romans would be copying from them instead of the other way around. The Chinese had the crossbow, which was important as it allowed a peasant conscript to shoot down a fast moving nomad with reasonable accuracy and range, with less training. It could also pierce through all but the strongest armor. Therefore, for the Romans, the crossbow would quickly replace the bow and the javelin as the main medium to long range infantry weapon. China's cavalry was also excellent, and was perhaps as mobile as that of the Huns themselves.

However, the Chinese infantry in those days was pretty weak, as the Han Dynasty had been born out of a peasant rebellion. So if China were to go on serious expansion to annex Kingdoms in Korea, Japan, Vietnam or any other kingdom that will require a more conventional approach, training heavy infantry formations using Roman style tactics is essential. As for siege weaponry, the Chinese did have a traction trebuchet, which required teams of men to create tension, instead of the medieval counterweight trebuchet, but in comparison to the Romans were seriously lacking. It is in these places where China would not be able use its superior maneuverbility as effectively, and be forced to slug it out, and the development of these would be essential if China hopes to expand into these areas.

Therefore, the Han Dynasty, though able to expand into nomadic lands, had also not been able to fully conquer and incorporate some of the coastal regions, or other Kingdoms like Korea or Vietnam which had reasonable fortifications and well-trained armies. More importantly, a well-trained infantry force for the Chinese would allow them to better consolidate recently conquered regions than cavalry (after the fall of the Han, they all but lost some of the peripheral areas on the silk road).


(Where did everyone else go? Did they all lose interest in the thread? I hope not. We've got to get Hendryk in here somehow.)
 
A few more ideas:

In the Han Dynasty, merchants were viewed as lowly and contemptible by the ruling scholar-gentry class. They were not to purchase land, were forced to pay extra taxes, banned from public office and basically reduced to being street vendors. This is especially true with the registered merchants (unlike the unregistered merchants who were the J.P. Morgans of their day). However, if the Han Dynasty falls on schedule, and with large scale Roman contact occurring around 150-200, with the Han well into its dynastic disintegration, the next dynasty could bring a substantial attitude change toward the merchant class.

This attitude toward merchants was due to Confucianism, which put merchants at the bottom of the social hierarchy (of course, this was not universally true, as really the peasants were at the bottom), and one of the reasons why China stagnated in the 18th century. If the following Dynasty removes this social stigma on the merchants, which becomes more likely after contact with Rome, then China is definitely on the path to superpowerdom.

I'd expect that even after contact with Rome, the scholar-gentry will continue to remain the ruling elites. The farmer and peasant class will also likely remain the same, except they might benefit from new crops that were introduced by the Romans.

There were also slaves in the Han dynasty, those that were privately owned and government owned. Privately owned slaves were those who had fallen into debt, while publicly owned slaves were prisoners of war or people given via the tributary system. As far as I know, its already pretty similar to the Roman slave system.


Militarily, China had a very powerful army that was adept at combating the nomads, beating the Huns time after time, and it was because of these defeats that probably forced the Huns west and to Rome in OTL (or ITTL to Rome in the 5th century). Therefore, in this regard, I think that the Romans would be copying from them instead of the other way around. The Chinese had the crossbow, which was important as it allowed a peasant conscript to shoot down a fast moving nomad with reasonable accuracy and range, with less training. It could also pierce through all but the strongest armor. Therefore, for the Romans, the crossbow would quickly replace the bow and the javelin as the main medium to long range infantry weapon. China's cavalry was also excellent, and was perhaps as mobile as that of the Huns themselves.

However, the Chinese infantry in those days was pretty weak, as the Han Dynasty had been born out of a peasant rebellion. So if China were to go on serious expansion to annex Kingdoms in Korea, Japan, Vietnam or any other kingdom that will require a more conventional approach, training heavy infantry formations using Roman style tactics is essential. As for siege weaponry, the Chinese did have a traction trebuchet, which required teams of men to create tension, instead of the medieval counterweight trebuchet, but in comparison to the Romans were seriously lacking. It is in these places where China would not be able use its superior maneuverability as effectively, and be forced to slug it out, and the development of these would be essential if China hopes to expand into these areas.

Therefore, the Han Dynasty, though able to expand into nomadic lands, had also not been able to fully conquer and incorporate some of the coastal regions, or other Kingdoms like Korea or Vietnam which had reasonable fortifications and well-trained armies. More importantly, a well-trained infantry force for the Chinese would allow them to better consolidate recently conquered regions than cavalry (after the fall of the Han, they all but lost some of the peripheral areas on the silk road).


(Where did everyone else go? Did they all lose interest in the thread? I hope not. We've got to get Hendryk in here somehow.)

I would argue that Chinese infantry was nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be. After all, look at Qin Shi Huang's army a few centuries before the Han. Han infantry were at the very least, well-equipped and well-disciplined troops. Siege equipment was probably better (or at least relatively well organized sapper troops) than you describe it as well. The real flaw in the Chinese system was a lack of professional, long term soldiery. Most troops were conscripts, not long service full-time soldiers like they were in Rome. However, there are no immediate threats to the existence of Chinese civilization in East Asia, so a professional army would be somewhat redundant. Also, China didn't have much to conquer. The south was disease ridden jungle and malarial swamps, Korea was mountainous, and there were steppes to the north that seemed to go on forever, and they didn't support Chinese methods of agriculture. A conscript force to deal with the occasional barbarian incursion or dynastic overthrow is much more economical when you don't have to fight constantly.

The disdain for merchants comes from the fact that for the longest time, China was the most advanced society in the world, and thus didn't have as great a need for trade or non-tribute based exterior relations. For most of its history, there was China, surrounded by satellite states who paid tribute to China. It's easy to be disdainful of the merchant class in such a situation, as a merchant negotiates and buys instead of demands and takes. What needs to happen for a powerful merchant class is that Rome in this case, needs to be seen as China's equal, and not just barbarians. Until then, the Chinese will simply take what they want and disregard the barbarians.
 
All I could speculate for China at the moment is that there would need to be quite a few mercantle settlements in both territories, as usual diplomacy, in the early stages of their relationship, would take too much time. With having a permanent, albeit token presence in each others lands, plenty of merchants would be willing to ferry officials across the Indian ocean, at a fee.

I think there were a number of Zoroastrians in China at the time. If the Persian religion was percieved by the Roman conquerors as a hostile idealology, this could be used by the Chinese later in any possible future conflict with Rome, as the Persians might start seeing the Chinese as potential liberators.


That all I got at the moment.:)
 

General Zod

Banned
All of you have already provided several rather useful ideas (although none about PoD effects on Chinese civilian technology :(, a very important issue IMO). Well done. :D

Some comments: I take it very much as a given ITTL that China would soon come to regard Rome as its own full equal (at least since they conquer and assimilate Parthia), and adjust its view of the world and international relationships accordingly.

Also, with Rome sticking around and steadily expanding for centuries, and Roman-Chinese trade exchanges becoming more and more substantial, I assume it as necessary that the status and importance of the merchant class would rise up to matching their Roman equivalent. Yes, the scholar-gentry would remain the ruling class, but the merchants would become the social ladder just below.

I also expect that the officers too would rise to a status just inferior to the scholar-gentry, like the merchants, since China would have to face more border troubles with the steppe barbarians trapped betwen two increasingly stronger empires, a military rivalry with Rome since when it expands in India and shifts from distant trade partner to border rival, and an increasingly expansionist attitude of later dynasties like Bmao described.

With the rise of a professional scholar civil service (albeit paralleled by a military one), the decline of chattel slavery, and the rise of proto-capitalist economy in Rome, these developments would cause Roman and Chinese societes to become more alike.

Honestly I could not tell whether this would occur because Confucianist social theories get significantly revised, or because anohter philosophical school (maybe Mohism) grows dominant in Chinese political thought.

I would also take strong objection that Korea and South East Asia would be worthless targets for Chinese expansion. The three kingdoms of Korea and the Khmer Empire, just to name a couple examples, were far, far from worthless tracts of mountain or jungle. :eek::rolleyes:

I rather assume that China would be forced to retool its army to make it more suited to imperial expansion, and that they could learn some tactical and technological lessons from steady contact with Rome, albeit Chinese army was already rather good. A shift to at least a partially professional army would indeed be quite likely. By the way, we have already eastablished in the other thread (and included in the TL) that Rome would soon copy the crossbow from the Chinese.

The idea about early permanent merchant settlement si very good, even if I expect that rather soon it would blossom into permanent diplomatic missions (and a steady trickle of scholars going both ways).

I think the (very limited) presence of Zoroastrians in China would be utterly irrelevant in the big picture and the long term. ITTL that religion would suffer the same near-complete marginalization in Persia from the dominant Roman religion that it suffered IOTL from Islam, for pretty much the same reasons (including the one that Rome, while it remained strong, was ruthless and efficient at wiping out religions that became a rallying pojnt for separatists, ask the Jewish zealots). By the time China and Rome get to share close borders (Roman and Chinese expansion in India and Central Asia), Zoroastrianism would be a fringe minority in the Middle East. China would be in the position to try that trick in India, not in Persia.
 
Last edited:

Hendryk

Banned
I think the (very limited) presence of Zoroastrians in China would be utterly irrelevant in the big picture and the long term. ITTL that religion would suffer the same near-complete marginalization in Persia from the dominant Roman religion that it suffered IOTL from Islam, for pretty much the same reasons (including the one that Rome, while it remained strong, was ruthless and efficient at wiping out religions that became a rallying pojnt for separatists, ask the Jewish zealots). By the time China and Rome get to share close borders (Roman and Chinese expansion in India and Central Asia), Zoroastrianism would be a fringe minority in the Middle East.
Indeed, the religious overlap between the Roman and Chinese worlds wouldn't be Zoroastrianism but rather Buddhism, which started to enter China in the late Han dynasty and spread throughout Chinese society as a whole in the following three or four centuries, becoming gradually assimilated in the process with the rise of Mahayana Buddhism and its various schools (especially Chan, or Zen as we know it). As Buddhism became all the rage, Chinese pilgrims went to India to bring back scriptural documents, and this would provide occasions to find out about Roman culture. Chinese pilgrims would see Roman ones not as traders from overseas to be kept at arms' length, but as fellow believers, and this may be an opportunity for the two civilizations to become better acquainted on neutral ground.

One specific invention that would be passed around during such encounters would probably be paper.

To give you an idea of the kind of pilgrimage done by the Chinese at the time, and to highlight the occasions of contact with Romans present in India it would provide, one could do worse than take the example of Fa Xian (337-422 CE):

map.jpg
 
I think the (very limited) presence of Zoroastrians in China would be utterly irrelevant in the big picture and the long term. ITTL that religion would suffer the same near-complete marginalization in Persia from the dominant Roman religion that it suffered IOTL from Islam, for pretty much the same reasons (including the one that Rome, while it remained strong, was ruthless and efficient at wiping out religions that became a rallying pojnt for separatists, ask the Jewish zealots). By the time China and Rome get to share close borders (Roman and Chinese expansion in India and Central Asia), Zoroastrianism would be a fringe minority in the Middle East. China would be in the position to try that trick in India, not in Persia.

I didn't mean to suggest that the Chinese would adopt Zoroastrianism, but that it could provide sanctuary to Persian emigres fleeing from Roman rule, as well as a source of soldiers and administrators for if China ever intends to invade Persia, and perhaps install a loyal pro-Chinese government. Then again, India is closer, so the Han Empire may only provide just refuge for fugitive Zoroastrians.
 

General Zod

Banned
Indeed, the religious overlap between the Roman and Chinese worlds wouldn't be Zoroastrianism but rather Buddhism, which started to enter China in the late Han dynasty and spread throughout Chinese society as a whole in the following three or four centuries, becoming gradually assimilated in the process with the rise of Mahayana Buddhism and its various schools (especially Chan, or Zen as we know it). As Buddhism became all the rage, Chinese pilgrims went to India to bring back scriptural documents, and this would provide occasions to find out about Roman culture. Chinese pilgrims would see Roman ones not as traders from overseas to be kept at arms' length, but as fellow believers, and this may be an opportunity for the two civilizations to become better acquainted on neutral ground.

This is quite reasonable, and a very good idea. Now, I've been given some serious thought about the diffusion of Buddhism in this Roman Empire. I'm entirely convinced that Roman culture would espouse it as the sole main religion of the Empire (I'm purposefully feeding my pet peeves and picking butterflies that let Abrahamic and related monotheisms be utterly crushed in the dust of histoy :p;)), I would expect something like Hinduism (or my homegrown syncretic European analogue) to fill the niche that Confucianism and Taoism filled in China. On the other hand, I am quite convinced that something wholly analogue to China could and would happen in Rome, too, where Buddhism could spread in parallel to one or more different compatible religions, with both being practiced by most citizens for different matters in different circumstances. E.g. in our TL, Romanism for dealing with community matters, or seeking confort about everyday matters, Buddhism to cope with loss and life crises.

One specific invention that would be passed around during such encounters would probably be paper.

Very good point. Already discussed and inserted in the TL.

To give you an idea of the kind of pilgrimage done by the Chinese at the time, and to highlight the occasions of contact with Romans present in India it would provide, one could do worse than take the example of Fa Xian (337-422 CE):

Nifty chart. I suppose Romand and Chinese would trace that trek both ways.
 
Chinese maratime technology was certainly ahead of that of the Romans, as their ships were equipped with stern-mounted rudders as of the First Century CE, so they could have made the trip across the Indian Ocean faster than the triremes of the west.

Plumbing would have been a worthy bonus for Chinese civilization if contact with Rome was more intimate.

I think that if the Han Army becomes more geared toawards conquest, that the most professional element amongst them would be their cavalry force. Even if the infantry were to take on more legion-like characteristics, they would only be needed for the duration of a campaign, at the end of which, they'll be settled in military colonies to protect newly acquired territory.

Aquaducts would be a fine development for Chinese settlements that are located in more arid regions of the empire. The concept behind theatres, basilicas and bath-houses and maybe forums and arenas might hold the interest of Chinese diplomats visiting the Roman Empire.

Those notional trading colonies that each empire has in the others territory that I mentioned before, as well as improving the logistics between them, may help invite the technolgies of each civilization to the others midsts. This way, cranes, screw presses, domes and arches, and glass-blowing would be introduced to Chinese artisans.
 
Top