So the Germans break through the Ardennes...

Its pretty much impossible within the otl framework... the Germans could never bring fuel and supplies that far forward, nor did they have enough infantry to screen what would be an increasingly long left flank as they drove north... basically before they ever got that far, Patton would find air or a thin screen of troops in the south and cut them off... think 3rd battle of kharkov or falaise plus snow

you need pod's much earlier that make the german army of the west stronger at least to even consider such a drive (perhaps an orderly pull back to the french river lines instead of the insane attacks that lead to the battle of falaise)
 
Model's "small slam" would have been a far more workable solution. This involved a pincer attack by the 15th army (about 12ish divisions would be allocated) around Aachen to trap the 4 farthest forward allied divisions, crush them, and then conduct an orderly pull back to defend the Rhine for the spring

He and Rundsted also proposed a winter attack (again about 12 divisions) out of Velno Holland with the idea of pushing the British back (whom they felt had overextended in the fall and whose troops where exhausted)... this would have had the same problems the British had on their way in... too many water obstacles and the roads are too easy to turn into bottlenecks/killzones
 
Its pretty much impossible within the otl framework... the Germans could never bring fuel and supplies that far forward, nor did they have enough infantry to screen what would be an increasingly long left flank as they drove north... basically before they ever got that far, Patton would find air or a thin screen of troops in the south and cut them off... think 3rd battle of kharkov or falaise plus snow

you need pod's much earlier that make the german army of the west stronger at least to even consider such a drive (perhaps an orderly pull back to the french river lines instead of the insane attacks that lead to the battle of falaise)

What if the Allied command figured out earlier that a major offensive was underway? The decision is then made to let the Germans advance deep into the Allied rear, with the idea of trapping the German armies. Along the way, it could be possible for the SS spearhead to advance into Antwerp (not everything goes as planned for on the Allied side).
 
Well, didn't OTL Patton say along the lines of let 'em get to Paris then cut them all off? I know he was prone to his share of bravado and it probably was in jest or as a boast; or whatever; SHAEF wouldn't let that happen. but to a degree, the more successful anything in the Ardennes goes, the better chance of Falaise 2: Electric Boogaloo :cool::eek: :D
 
IIRC, after the war Von Rundstedt said arriving to Antwerpen was utterly impossible in the situation the Wehrmacht was. His literal words (I quote from memory) were something like "We should have fallen on our knees and thanked God only for arriving to the Meuse; nevermind reaching Antwerp". When not even the guy in charge believes in the feasibility of the operation...
 
IIRC, after the war Von Rundstedt said arriving to Antwerpen was utterly impossible in the situation the Wehrmacht was. His literal words (I quote from memory) were something like "We should have fallen on our knees and thanked God only for arriving to the Meuse; nevermind reaching Antwerp". When not even the guy in charge believes in the feasibility of the operation...

There where some strange moments like that in the western campaign

Kluge gets ordered by Jodl to conduct the Mortain offensive which lead to the disaster at Falaise

Kluge: This plan makes no sense, the entire front is a ratfuck
Jodl: Plan approved!
Kluge: Plan useless!
 
Might get Canada more recognition in the public eye if they can even just hold out until everyone else shows up.
 
Might get Canada more recognition in the public eye if they can even just hold out until everyone else shows up.

Inside Canada, probably.

In the US, Patton would be famous for rescuing them.

In the UK, Monty would be famous for rescuing them.
 

CalBear

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I always figure that the Heer came out of the Wacht am Rhein about as well set up as was possible given the stupidity of the plan.

They blunted the Allied push into Germany for at least six weeks, which gave the Heer time to shake out some sort of defensive line, and didn't get too overextended in the process.

Whenever Wacht am Rhein comes up I am always reminded of Sherman's line about John Bell Hood's threat to come out of the defenses around Atlanta "If he'll advance as far as Franklin, I'll send him rations".

Any German unit that emerged from the Ardennes, probably any armored unit that went must beyond Bastogne was going to be flattened, probably with total unrecoverable loss (eithr KIA or PoW) as soon as the weather cleared. The farther the offensive advanced the more Heer units went into the kill sack.
 
Even if they had managed to break through at the Ardennes they'd have had to cross the Meuse at either Liege or Namur - both of which were occupied by XXX Corps, which Monty had been moving into place along the river since he first heard about the start of the German offensive. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell of Hitler capturing Antwerp. Monty may have been an egocentric prig, but he was a good general and certainly no Gamelin. :rolleyes:

Oh, pish. Stop being so ... predictable.

Everyone knows the Germans were simply 30% better than the Allies, which meant they could do 30% more with 30% less and get results 30% greater. Clearly 30 + 30+ 30 is pretty much 100%, which of course means that each German soldier was actually twice as efficient as each Allied soldier. When you have a 200% superiority over the enemy, trivial little things like quality (or lack thereof), airpower (or lack thereof), and resources (or lack thereof) become completely irrelevant. Why, with that kind of superiority a platoon of 60year-old Volksturmers armed with sharpened mangoes would merely need to walk up and posture a bit in order to have the entire Allied army scrambling back onto their landing-crafts as fast as their fully fuelled, totally motorised, logisitics services could carry them.:D
 
The plan makes sense if you are still trying to WIN and only through that vantage should it be viewed. Of course it really had no chance for success but that is why Hitler ordered it. As others pointed out the rational view was surrender to the western allies and let them occupy Germany.

Michael
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Might get Canada more recognition in the public eye if they can even just hold out until everyone else shows up.

Inside Canada, probably.

In the US, Patton would be famous for rescuing them.

In the UK, Monty would be famous for rescuing them.

And Gridley pretty much nails it on the head. That's the shit of the Canadian military in World War II. They were the only military to both have their own beach AND get to their objectives on D-Day, they were primarily responsible for the demolition of I SS Panzer Corps as an effective fighting force in Normandy, and they opened Antwerp by taking the Scheldt Estuary.

But what does history record? Omaha Beach, because the Americans were there.

Operation Cobra, because the Patton was there.

And the Liberation of Antwerp by Horrocks' XXX Corps, because they were British and it was in Monty and Britain's best interest to trumpet their own acheivements to high heaven so they could get an equal seat at the postwar table.

Nevermind the fact that when Antwerp was taken it was still useless to the Allies: the approaches between it and the sea were held by the Wehrmacht. But Monty had gotten British soldiers on newsreels liberating a capitol and now he would turn them to go into the heart of Germany in his next adventure (Market Garden). So the Canadians got stuck with the shit job of cleaning out the Scheldt Estuary after the Germans had time to dig in: this was even after Guy Simonds (who was commanding First Canadian Army at the time) had been sounding off that Monty should turn Horrocks up immediately and hate him clean out the Scheldt before the Germans could regroup.
But evidently it was more important to keep British troops in the spotlight.


(detect some bitterness? Yeah...it's there.)
 
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