So, suppose the Brits exit the war in 1940...

...over a failed Dunkirk evacuation or whatever, what do they do afterwards? Assuming this does not change the general course of the war (Germany attacks the U.S.S.R. in 1941), would they re-enter the war at some point, a bit like what happened after the Treaty of Amiens in the early 19th century? I'd be willing to say that they would, but I'd like to hear your opinions.

Also, could someone chime in on whether or not the 1940 General Election would have been held in this situation? If so, what would have been the probable result?
 

James G

Gone Fishin'
I would think we would have seen a similar situation to the early 1800's, yes: Britain would go back in soon enough.
As to a general election, I think that with the then national government in-place due to the war, a state of armed peace with Germany still a massive threat, there would be no general election for some time.
That is my reading of such a scenario.
 
Brits can't allow Germans dominate whole Europe so they don't leave war.

I think this is true and will be the basis on how they make their decisions.

The two assets they have in place to allow them to stay in the war are the Navy and Air Force.
  • With the Navy they can blockade Germany and make life hard for Germany.
  • The Air Force will be able to keep Germany at bay long enough until the US gets involved.
These would be the same two assets that would convince them to re-enter if they quit after Dunkirk.

The OP's thought of quitting would REALLY require a different then OTL type of political leadership and British public opinion!
 
It would be like the peace or Treaty of Amiens in 1802 at best

And remember that even Halifax believed that Continued War was preferable to a disadvantageous Peace

So unless German Soldiers were marching down Whitehall, with a puppet in 10 Downing street and the RN was mostly destroyed then its unlikely to happen.
 
Those in control were well-schooled in such events as the Treaty of Amiens and the Peace of Utrecht. It's the British Way to return to war when it's more advantageous.

However, with no state of war existing, a General Election would be mandatory by law, and it would be likely to go badly against the "Guilty Men" who first appeased and then lost a war against Germany.
 

Deleted member 94680

A "failed Dunkirk" would mean the Army has taken a kicking, but as others have posted, the Navy and the Air Force would still be around.

Allowing for no invasion threat, the British would rebuild their Army and come back for another go as soon as they could.

What would the Germans be doing in this time period? Rebuilding and refitting for Barbarossa?
 

Redbeard

Banned
I think the first significant consequences will be in the Med and then the Far East.

If Germany and UK are no longer at war Italy will have to either leave the war very soon or get rolled over in short with no one to bail them out. So in short we will not in 1940-41 have any Mediterranean or North African campaign (and no Rubarb sorties over France) drawing heavy resources on the British.

This means it will be quite easy to bring up the defences in the Far East (Malaya/Singapore) to a level making it nigh on impossible to for the Japanese to take Malaya/Singapore. That will in itself be significant for world history after.
 

Deleted member 94680

I think the first significant consequences will be in the Med and then the Far East.

If Germany and UK are no longer at war Italy will have to either leave the war very soon or get rolled over in short with no one to bail them out. So in short we will not in 1940-41 have any Mediterranean or North African campaign (and no Rubarb sorties over France) drawing heavy resources on the British.

This means it will be quite easy to bring up the defences in the Far East (Malaya/Singapore) to a level making it nigh on impossible to for the Japanese to take Malaya/Singapore. That will in itself be significant for world history after.

So in this, you're saying Italy would still be at war with Britain even if Germany isn't? Doesn't the Pact of Steel mean if Britain is at War with one member, they're at War with all of them? The North African campaign would end as soon as Britain withdraws from the War, wouldn't it?
 
I strongly suspect that Germany would gladly throw Italy under the bus in order to get peace with Britain. I know Hitler had a soft spot for Mussolini, but the practical benefits would be so large that it would be worth sacrificing Il Duce.
 

Deleted member 94680

I strongly suspect that Germany would gladly throw Italy under the bus in order to get peace with Britain. I know Hitler had a soft spot for Mussolini, but the practical benefits would be so large that it would be worth sacrificing Il Duce.

Fair point I suppose.
 
I strongly suspect that Germany would gladly throw Italy under the bus in order to get peace with Britain. I know Hitler had a soft spot for Mussolini, but the practical benefits would be so large that it would be worth sacrificing Il Duce.

Hitler cutting Mussolini's balls off and offering them to Churchill has political benefits?

Hitler surely knows that whatever slim changes he had of pulling off something like Sealion would be slashed if the Royal Navy wasn't tied down in the Med. No the Axis needed to take peace together.
 
Germany would want Italy to be included in the peace deal, but I suspect that if Germany had to choose between peace and lifting of the blockade, and Italy, then it would strongly consider the former.

But, really, Germany shouldn't have to make this decisions. Mussolini isn't stupid and would moderate his demands on Britain... but not on France. That still leaves him able to declare victory in his war.
 
If there is any peace deal, it will be through Italy, as that's what Halifax was working on. It also has to be in the heat of the moment, right after Dunkirk, since waiting will only make attitudes harden and peace less likely.

Moreover, if this comes as a result of a completely botched Dunkirk, and let's say also working German torpedoes in Norway, to really tighten the screws, then it's quite possible, probable in fact, that the Anglo-French approach the Italians together, to act as intermediaries BEFORE the fall of Paris. Meaning Italy won't be in the war at all.

If you delay long enough that the shock of losing the entire BEF wears off, in order to get the Italian DoW, you might miss your chance for peace.

That said, I severely doubt any peace Hitler is willing to consider would meet even the most minimal standards Chamberlain (and more importantly Parliament) would accept.

Ignoring that for a second, if peace is declared, it means no German troops in and no economic domination of western Europe. Britain would continue rearming like crazy, (as would France in secret most likely - even OTL, they tried basically every trick in the book) and would argue that, as soon as Barbarossa happens, that that action violates the terms of the 'Armistice for Peace in Europe' (which it probably will).

What's more, Stalin isn't going to be caught napping ITTL.
 

Riain

Banned
I doubt Germany would be comfortable with leaving Britain to arm up while barbarossa in underway. I think any attempt at peace negotiations will falter on that point, Germany knows its history as well.
 
Well, lets say Guderian ignores the "Stop"-order of 24th May.
He did similar later on in the East and such "ignoring" or not "receiving" such orders had some ... tradition (Gen. Francois at Stallupönen 1914 i.e.).

Therefore he reaches Dunkirk at the 25th (just 18 km away from his positions at the 24th of May AFAIK). What might force/motivate group Hoth as well as the "rest" of the 4th army to cross also the Yser and Aa rivers, cutting off fench 1st army even earlier. That leaves for the Brits as possible port of evacuation only Nieuport - at the moment.
Hitler might be upset, perhaps even furious of Guderians extra-tour, but ... success has merits and weight of its own and he might ceventually calm down due to this (as later as well with Guderians extra-tours).
With Belgium breaking away also Nieuport isn't available for the Brits anymore, the bag is closed around 28/29th May. Assuming Gort still manages to depart for Britain on Churchills order, the remaining BEF and french forces will likely surrender somewhere around 2nd/3rd June. Though there might still be some troops evacuated but I would assume well below 100.000 instead of 330.00 men.

-> MEGA-victory for Germany -> all disobeidience by Guderian forgiven atm (but maybe not forgotten ?)

Now, that the Brits doesn_t have much/anything to spare I would doubt, that the quick redeployments of the evacuted troop to France would occur ITTL, leaving the french almost completly by their own.
Churchill and the british cabinet would also NOT immediatly sue for peace or even an armistice at that point and try to convince France to "fight 'till the last frenchman", as they were already accused of IOTL. However, there also might now pop up an "invasion scare in Britain" with sooo few troops left. ... and eventually lead the cabinet - with or without Churchill - to ask for an armistice at least. But to come to this will take some time.
Maybe around the 7th/8th June, maybe via Mussolini, as he hasn't entered hostilities yet. Though I can think of him being rather reluctant to do so, seeing the german success. Hitler, "drunken" by this victory might be willing to accept such an armistice, but only for Britain, not for France, what might cause some further delays, as the british might quarrel, if they can/have to negotiate for their 'stubborn' ally, with whom they try to speak also for 'acceptable' terms for them.
What costs further time.

Case Red will still happen, maybe with a delay of 2 or 3 days (7th instead of 5th June), maybe with the same 'problems' 'Heeresgruppe B' encountered in the first days of their advance. But then only the technically attainable speed of Guderians and Rommels tanks will hinder them.
Seeing the french loosing the Brits might now accept an armistice only between them and germany, adandoning France. I could assume now an armistice between Britain and Germany alone around the 11/12/13th June.
Conditions :
  • withdrawel of any british troops, that might still be in France - without their equipment
  • unconditional "opening" of the Noth-Sea as well as the Channel for german ships
  • opening of british over-sea harbours for german merchant ships ... and ofc giving any yet seized such ships back.
  • repatriating of any german PoWs, that might be there, of british PoWs : the brits might get some, the wounded, the family fathers maybe, but the bulk will be spared for a peace settlement, what Hitler, now 'reinforced' in his believe in an anglo-german 'partnership' might believe to come quick and easily.
  • cessation of any support to France, economical, financial and ofc militarily also (regarding material). The german 'wish' of receiving french troops, who might have made it to Britain or french naval units, that might have 'found' shelter in Britain might be fought off with the 'promise' of interning them, as would have (?) done a neutral state.
)Ofc for Britain it would be planned by the Brits only to serve as a breathing pause to rebuild, though Hilter might think/hope/dream of different.)

What IMO would cause Mussolini as the opportunist he was to immediatly start hostilities against France also, before any negotiations might come to a conclusion, maybe around 15/16th june. At that point I could assume the french also seeking an armistice - with Germany alone, but such a bid would be as futile as IOTL.
Therefore I could assume a "Compiegne" around the 20th June, some days earlier that OTL.

Though this "Compiegne" might look different. First because Hitler/Germany doesn't 'need' the french northern coast as a guard and staging point against Britain. Second because the french are now even more pissed off the Brits by abandoning them. They might even offer to 'fight' in a way against Britain, in the Mediterrainian i.e.. Though I would assume, that at least atm Hitler would refuse to have french fighting forces of importance left in metropolitan France.
  • Eastern and north-eastern France might be occupied as OTL, as well as Britanny with its harbour for the KM and Bordeaux-region but NOT the long strip down the Atlantik-coast, NOT Normandy and Northern France, NOT Ile de France.
  • French army in Metropolitan France (as IOTL) reduced to 100.000 men
  • atm same as IOTL regarding french PoWs
  • same regulations regarding german citizens in France (object to delivering to german authorities -> exilants)
  • much reduced "occupational costs" (maybe 5 mil RM instead of 20 mil)
  • BUT integration of french economy into the german/german controlled "autarky zone" or war economy (french industry producing for germany) already from the beginning
Mussolini will get as much or even fewer he gained OTL.

However, the german-british talks about a peace-treaty will be deliberatly delayed by the Brits until at least ...
Operation Catapult happens
(which IMO will happen, as the reasons for it would still stand and weight perhaps even more with the french-british alienation)
Though it would still be questionable if this would sober Hitler enough to forbabe the french, now furious about the Brits, to wage their on war against Britain (maybe in the colonies).

... open for further butterflies ...
 
To be kept in mind now :

sea- and trading lines now fully open for EVERYBODY ...
the brits as well as the germans ... Wall Street will celebrate ...
 
Well, lets say Guderian ignores the "Stop"-order of 24th May.......... Assuming Gort still manages to depart for Britain on Churchills order, the remaining BEF and french forces will likely surrender somewhere around 2nd/3rd June. Though there might still be some troops evacuated but I would assume well below 100.000 instead of 330.00 men.

Would this really work? Can the Panzers keep going and if so can they avoid getting attrition so they are not available for the later turn south?
Did Gort not start moving before he got orders to do so and would they really get so few off?


I could assume now an armistice between Britain and Germany alone around the 11/12/13th June.
Very unlikely why would GB give up when they still have France fighting? Even if you think an armistice is inevitable unless Germany immediately gives very good terms they might as well buy for time and let some more Germans die and hope that the French forces are willing to join you in exile.

Conditions :
  • withdrawel of any british troops, that might still be in France - without their equipment (why would GB agree to that if they can delay and get equipment out?)
  • unconditional "opening" of the Noth-Sea as well as the Channel for german ships (Germany would want all the worlds oceans, at least for civilian ships)
  • opening of british over-sea harbours for german merchant ships ... and ofc giving any yet seized such ships back. (getting back ships and crews without giving up PoWs?)
  • repatriating of any german PoWs, that might be there, of british PoWs : the brits might get some, the wounded, the family fathers maybe, but the bulk will be spared for a peace settlement, what Hitler, now 'reinforced' in his believe in an anglo-german 'partnership' might believe to come quick and easily. (I think GB will want everybody for everybody swap and link to civilian ships and crews)
  • cessation of any support to France, economical, financial and ofc militarily also (regarding material). The german 'wish' of receiving french troops, who might have made it to Britain or french naval units, that might have 'found' shelter in Britain might be fought off with the 'promise' of interning them, as would have (?) done a neutral state. (I don't think GB will want to hand over exiles (not just French but all the others) but might agree to 'intern' them officially)
(Ofc for Britain it would be planned by the Brits only to serve as a breathing pause to rebuild, though Hilter might think/hope/dream of different.) agreed, but I think GB would want much more than offered for any swaps or they would give less.

What IMO would cause Mussolini as the opportunist he was to immediatly start hostilities against France also, before any negotiations might come to a conclusion, maybe around 15/16th june. At that point I could assume the french also seeking an armistice - with Germany alone, but such a bid would be as futile as IOTL.
Therefore I could assume a "Compiegne" around the 20th June, some days earlier that OTL.
I think it will all be done together, as soon as GB gives up its over why would Germany not get France to give up at same time? (and why let Italy in to share spoils)

Though this "Compiegne" might look different. First because Hitler/Germany doesn't 'need' the french northern coast as a guard and staging point against Britain. Second because the french are now even more pissed off the Brits by abandoning them. They might even offer to 'fight' in a way against Britain, in the Mediterrainian i.e.. Though I would assume, that at least atm Hitler would refuse to have french fighting forces of importance left in metropolitan France.
  • Eastern and north-eastern France might be occupied as OTL, as well as Britanny with its harbour for the KM and Bordeaux-region but NOT the long strip down the Atlantik-coast, NOT Normandy and Northern France, NOT Ile de France.
  • French army in Metropolitan France (as IOTL) reduced to 100.000 men
  • atm same as IOTL regarding french PoWs
  • same regulations regarding german citizens in France (object to delivering to german authorities -> exilants)
  • much reduced "occupational costs" (maybe 5 mil RM instead of 20 mil)
  • BUT integration of french economy into the german/german controlled "autarky zone" or war economy (french industry producing for germany) already from the beginning
Mussolini will get as much or even fewer he gained OTL.
However, the german-british talks about a peace-treaty will be deliberatly delayed by the Brits until at least ...
Operation Catapult happens
(which IMO will happen, as the reasons for it would still stand and weight perhaps even more with the french-british alienation)
Though it would still be questionable if this would sober Hitler enough to forbabe the french, now furious about the Brits, to wage their on war against Britain (maybe in the colonies).
If the Germans have agreed peace and not taken northern cost of France why do GB need to hit French fleet? They have given up on an invasion quickly and long term GB can build invulnerable defences especially without LW fighters to cover attack from close airbases....
The French will be pissed but will be very demoralized and prefer peace followed by civilian rebuilding if Germany is willing to go light on them to any war with GB.
I cant see the French doing anything and I cant see a war in Med as GB is to strong without Germany involved.
 
I am far from peace so early on ... only armistices.

Hitler woud not outright "forbade" Mussolini to take action on the french border ... nor would have the means to do so ... remember the ill-fated, unwanted italian attack in the balkans.

On the timing ... I am definitly not sure about, only assumptions, suggestions.

But the Germans/Hitler will seperate Britain and France and not deal with them together at the same package.

As there are seperate armistices, the reasons for the Brits, as said, are still the same to humiliate the french Navy. The possible reactions of France are my ... suggestions.
 
Top