So Julia and Pompey have a kid...

But Julia's father and husband still go to war with each other. Pompey still loses in Greece and goes to eygpt with his family. After landing in eygpt with his young son and wife they are betrayed and all murdered. Julia and Her son are killed because of a false rumor that Caesar wants them dead. That complety false and when showed his family heads he gets pissed. My question is would Caesar go full on Gaul on eygpt and brutally conqure it or is he pragmatic enough to keep it as a client kingdom?

Scenario 2: Julia doesn't get killed but sees Pompey die. She runs to her father with her son and in her grief begs Caesar to avenge Pompey by destroying the house of ptolemy and conquring and decimating eygpt for the republic. How much of this Does Caesar follow? Also what happens to the young son of Julia?
 
But Julia's father and husband still go to war with each other. Pompey still loses in Greece and goes to eygpt with his family. After landing in eygpt with his young son and wife they are betrayed and all murdered. Julia and Her son are killed because of a false rumor that Caesar wants them dead. That complety false and when showed his family heads he gets pissed. My question is would Caesar go full on Gaul on eygpt and brutally conqure it or is he pragmatic enough to keep it as a client kingdom?

Scenario 2: Julia doesn't get killed but sees Pompey die. She runs to her father with her son and in her grief begs Caesar to avenge Pompey by destroying the house of ptolemy and conquring and decimating eygpt for the republic. How much of this Does Caesar follow? Also what happens to the young son of Julia?

You miss one point that is absolutely decisive and not respecting this point turns your hypothesis into an ASB scenario.

The minute Caesar and Pompey go to civil war against each other, Pompey breaks up his marriage with Julia.

And the fact that Pompey was actually in love with Julia changed nothing to this which was a basic law of roman political and dynastic alliances.

OTL, Pompey's marriage with Julia was arranged by Caesar to strengthen their alliance. When Cicero and Pompey's other optimate friends strove to break up the triumvirate with which Pompey was beginning to feel unconfortable, they naturally tried to convince him to divorce from Julia. Which Pompey refused more for political reasons than for love reasons : Pompey had already shown when young that he did not hesitate to break up a marriage in order to contract a politically more convenient marriage. He had even shown that he did not hesitate to execute a friend and kind of patron that had previously protected him and save his skin (I am refering to Gaius Papirius Carbo).

My stand is also that Caesar and Pompey both loved Julia so much that she would have made them self restrain and maintain their political alliance.
 
Butterflies are being genocided. A surviving marriage between Pompey and Julia means there is no opportunity for the Catonians to attempt to open a split between Pompey and Caesar.
 
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With Julia alive you will never have any war between Caesar and Pompey. And if Julia still die but left a living son the alliance between them will likely remain (pompey is the father of Caesar most likely heir)
 
And if Julia still die but left a living son the alliance between them will likely remain (pompey is the father of Caesar most likely heir)

This is less certain.

Let's say that this son is the baby for whom Julia died in childbirth and who OTL lived but a few days.

Child mortality was terribly high even in aristocratic families. You have the famous example of Cornelia, who gave birth to 12 children, among which only 3 reached adulthood.

The fact that the only known child of Caesar is Julia does not at all mean that Caesar did not have other children by his 3 successive wives. It most probably means that Caesar's wives either suffered miscarriages or that their children died when babies or very young children.

Besides the case of Cornelia and her Gracchi children, we have the quite famous case of Agrippina the elder and Germanicus. We know that Augustus kind of breached custom in that he wanted so much to have many great grandchildren and loved Agrippina's children, especially boys, so much that he had statues or chests of them in his house. And that when one of Agrippina's sons died aged around 2 years old, Augustus was so sad that for some time he used to caress the face of the chest of his dead great grandson.

All this to say that, if Julia died in childbirth, her leaving a very young boy of Pompey may not be a guarantee for Pompey and Caesar not going to war against each other because this child still statistically has a high risk of dying before reaching adulthood.
 
This is less certain.

Let's say that this son is the baby for whom Julia died in childbirth and who OTL lived but a few days.

Child mortality was terribly high even in aristocratic families. You have the famous example of Cornelia, who gave birth to 12 children, among which only 3 reached adulthood.

The fact that the only known child of Caesar is Julia does not at all mean that Caesar did not have other children by his 3 successive wives. It most probably means that Caesar's wives either suffered miscarriages or that their children died when babies or very young children.

Besides the case of Cornelia and her Gracchi children, we have the quite famous case of Agrippina the elder and Germanicus. We know that Augustus kind of breached custom in that he wanted so much to have many great grandchildren and loved Agrippina's children, especially boys, so much that he had statues or chests of them in his house. And that when one of Agrippina's sons died aged around 2 years old, Augustus was so sad that for some time he used to caress the face of the chest of his dead great grandson.

All this to say that, if Julia died in childbirth, her leaving a very young boy of Pompey may not be a guarantee for Pompey and Caesar not going to war against each other because this child still statistically has a high risk of dying before reaching adulthood.
Yes and I said a living son. If the child die is not unlikely who the alliance between Pompey and Caesar will follow him in the grave but while he live will be difficult put Pompey against Caesar
 
If Caesar only has one child and grandchild,only an idiot would somehow think he would want them dead.There's a slight chance Caesar might be monstrous enough to kill his grandchild since he is also the descent of his enemy,but his daughter?Even the most monstrous rulers who kill their children usually only do so because they have 'spares'.
 
Yes and I said a living son. If the child die is not unlikely who the alliance between Pompey and Caesar will follow him in the grave but while he live will be difficult put Pompey against Caesar

Sure but the course to civil war occurred in 50BCE and in the very first days of 49. And at that time the son of Pompey and Julia would have been only 4 years old. So at that time, both Pompey and Caesar could but be very aware that this child's future was still very uncertain.

Things would have been different if the boy was born as early as 58BCE, just one year after the marriage of his parents. In this case, the adoption of this son by his grandfather Caesar would very probably have already been arranged and performed.
 
At any rate,while I doubt the Ptolemies will have a pretty end,it's doubtful Caesar would go full Gaul on Egypt unless he meets strong resistance(which from the way how Octavian conquered Egypt doesn't seem likely) since the Republic needs a Egypt unscathed from damage to feed Rome.
 
Sure but the course to civil war occurred in 50BCE and in the very first days of 49. And at that time the son of Pompey and Julia would have been only 4 years old. So at that time, both Pompey and Caesar could but be very aware that this child's future was still very uncertain.

Things would have been different if the boy was born as early as 58BCE, just one year after the marriage of his parents. In this case, the adoption of this son by his grandfather Caesar would very probably have already been arranged and performed.
In Rome children can be adopted at any age. At that point the four year old son of Pompey and Julia will be very likely already Caius Julius Caesar Pompeianus (and a full patrician) and Pompey will be very hopeful for the future of that child who is a full fledged member of that roman aristocracy who always considered him an half outsider
 
In any case, if Julia is alive Pompey isn't marrying into the Metelli in an attempt to rekindle his lost alliance with them. Pompey was heavily considering meeting with Caesar IOTL to diffuse the crisis, something IIRC, Cicero was pushing for but the Catonians were against for obvious reasons. Curio is also less likely to push his luck ITTL because he has a less obvious path to pitting Pompey and Caesar against each other.

So most likely a deal is struck.
 
Usually, adoption within the aristocracy did not take place when children were very young but when they had reached a certain age.

I think you misinterpret the place of the patricians in the roman aristocracy of the late roman republic.

From around the 170´s BCE, there basically was no longer any difference between the patrician aristocracy and the plebeian aristocracy. The plebeian aristocracy had become so powerful and so "equal" with the patrician aristocracy that It could decide to elect 2 plebeians as consuls and did it more and more frequently.

It was far better to belong to a prominent noble plebeian family (like the Fulvii Nobiliores and Fulvii Flacci, the Livii Salinatores and the Livii Drusi, the Caecilii Metelli, the Claudii Marcelli, and the Junii Bruti), than to belong to a second or third rank patrician family that had been unable to have a consul for centuries (like the Sergii or the Pinarii).

Even the Julii Caesares were quite obscure : they came back from oblivion because they were lucky to contract an alliance with Marius before he became the most important man in Rome.
It is mainly Caesar's personal outstanding talent and political courage (remaining faithful to the memories of the defeated Marius and populares) that made the Julii Caesares the powerful patrician family they had never been before.

Only members the 5 patrician gentes maiores (Cornelii, Fabii, Claudii, Aemilii and Claudii) a little more prestige than the most powerful plebeian gentes. On the condition that they belonged to a prominent branch of the gens.

Sulla, although a patrician Cornelius, was an upstart who made his family prominent back again after It had suffered infamia and been forced to back down 2 centuries earlier.

Julia was not a prestigious match for Pompey. Cornelia Scipionis, the daughter of Metellus Scipio and Aemilia Lepida (which means her parents both were from gentes maiores), was a prestigious match for Pompey because she was the most noble woman of Rome.
 
Usually, adoption within the aristocracy did not take place when children were very young but when they had reached a certain age.

I think you misinterpret the place of the patricians in the roman aristocracy of the late roman republic.

From around the 170´s BCE, there basically was no longer any difference between the patrician aristocracy and the plebeian aristocracy. The plebeian aristocracy had become so powerful and so "equal" with the patrician aristocracy that It could decide to elect 2 plebeians as consuls and did it more and more frequently.

It was far better to belong to a prominent noble plebeian family (like the Fulvii Nobiliores and Fulvii Flacci, the Livii Salinatores and the Livii Drusi, the Caecilii Metelli, the Claudii Marcelli, and the Junii Bruti), than to belong to a second or third rank patrician family that had been unable to have a consul for centuries (like the Sergii or the Pinarii).

Even the Julii Caesares were quite obscure : they came back from oblivion because they were lucky to contract an alliance with Marius before he became the most important man in Rome.
It is mainly Caesar's personal outstanding talent and political courage (remaining faithful to the memories of the defeated Marius and populares) that made the Julii Caesares the powerful patrician family they had never been before.

Only members the 5 patrician gentes maiores (Cornelii, Fabii, Claudii, Aemilii and Claudii) a little more prestige than the most powerful plebeian gentes. On the condition that they belonged to a prominent branch of the gens.

Sulla, although a patrician Cornelius, was an upstart who made his family prominent back again after It had suffered infamia and been forced to back down 2 centuries earlier.

Julia was not a prestigious match for Pompey. Cornelia Scipionis, the daughter of Metellus Scipio and Aemilia Lepida (which means her parents both were from gentes maiores), was a prestigious match for Pompey because she was the most noble woman of Rome.

You are sure? While the difference between patricians and plebeian aristocracy was diminished and politically the most important plebeian gentes were superior to the minor patrician gentes, the patrician had still their prestige and for a man like Pompey (who was of senatorial and also consular rank but was looked down because his family was not considered full roman) all his three patrician brides were very prestigious matches: being both patrician and well connected. Aemilia Lepida's late father was the principes senatus and her mother was at the time the wife of the Dictator Sulla, Julia was daughter of the Pontifex Maximus Julius Caesar, one of the leaders of the Popular party, Cornelia Metella was noble but calling her the most noble woman of Rome is an exageration.
 
You are sure? While the difference between patricians and plebeian aristocracy was diminished and politically the most important plebeian gentes were superior to the minor patrician gentes, the patrician had still their prestige and for a man like Pompey (who was of senatorial and also consular rank but was looked down because his family was not considered full roman) all his three patrician brides were very prestigious matches: being both patrician and well connected. Aemilia Lepida's late father was the principes senatus and her mother was at the time the wife of the Dictator Sulla, Julia was daughter of the Pontifex Maximus Julius Caesar, one of the leaders of the Popular party, Cornelia Metella was noble but calling her the most noble woman of Rome is an exageration.

I am sure. And Cornelia definitely was the noblest woman in Rome. Nobody could count as many consuls in his lineage as she did. Just consider what Cicero wrote about her father. This is the precise reason why Pompey wanted to marry her in 52.

PS : Mucia, the mother of Pompey's 3 children, was plebeian, not patrician.
 
I am sure. And Cornelia definitely was the noblest woman in Rome. Nobody could count as many consuls in his lineage as she did. Just consider what Cicero wrote about her father. This is the precise reason why Pompey wanted to marry her in 52.

PS : Mucia, the mother of Pompey's 3 children, was plebeian, not patrician.
I know and as you can see I excluded her and named only the three who were patrician (the second, fourth and fifth wife).
 
I think there's a little too much emphasis being placed on prestige over practical considerations. Prior to his joining the triumvirate, Pompey had an alliance with the Metelli. If Pompey wished to resurrect his political fortunes, which had been more or less ruined by the triumvirate (there's little doubt that Pompey got the short end of the stick of the triumvirate while Crassus and Caesar cashed in handsomely off of the alliance), a good place to start was rekindling his alliance with the Metelli.
 
At any rate,while I doubt the Ptolemies will have a pretty end,it's doubtful Caesar would go full Gaul on Egypt unless he meets strong resistance(which from the way how Octavian conquered Egypt doesn't seem likely) since the Republic needs a Egypt unscathed from damage to feed Rome.
So early annaxtion is your view? Hm intresting
You miss one point that is absolutely decisive and not respecting this point turns your hypothesis into an ASB scenario.

The minute Caesar and Pompey go to civil war against each other, Pompey breaks up his marriage with Julia.

And the fact that Pompey was actually in love with Julia changed nothing to this which was a basic law of roman political and dynastic alliances.

OTL, Pompey's marriage with Julia was arranged by Caesar to strengthen their alliance. When Cicero and Pompey's other optimate friends strove to break up the triumvirate with which Pompey was beginning to feel unconfortable, they naturally tried to convince him to divorce from Julia. Which Pompey refused more for political reasons than for love reasons : Pompey had already shown when young that he did not hesitate to break up a marriage in order to contract a politically more convenient marriage. He had even shown that he did not hesitate to execute a friend and kind of patron that had previously protected him and save his skin (I am refering to Gaius Papirius Carbo).

My stand is also that Caesar and Pompey both loved Julia so much that she would have made them self restrain and maintain their political alliance.
oh my bad
 
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