I mean, even before, he didn't exactly do a good job as King, and now....
Now he's just a utter disgrace to the title.
So Evident a Danger: The Consequences of War between Britain, Prussia and Russia in 1791
- Thread starter Gwrtheyrn Annwn
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Now he's just a utter disgrace to the title.
No wonder he always prefered locks 😆
It would probably be better for him too, if he quietly retired.
Isn't the Dauphin (Louis XVII) a much better and a more logical option than his uncles for assuming the claim to throne if his father decided to abdicate?
As the actual King, absolutely. But he will be much too young to have any kind of policy or offer any leadership for 10 years or more. So one of the brothers would have to be regent (a second regent of France).
Under the French traditions, Marie Antoinette would be her son’s Regent NOT Provence or Artois
An interesting point and it would certainly add plenty of colour to the narrative, but I wonder how long Provence or Artois would put up with that?
IIRC, Louis XVI produced a document before the Flight to Varennes IOTL that essentially made Provence regent if he failed to escape. That may or may not exist ITTL, and obviously wouldn't come into force even if it did, but it certainly sets a precedent for Provence as a regent if Louis XVI is 'indisposed'.
They have no choice: either Louis or Antoinette, unless they (or at least she) die
Yes. But Antoinette and the children were with Louis so they would either escape or be captured with him… In that set of circumstances Antoinette could NOT be an alternative to Louis
This is absolutely fair, but I do have one query. Wasn't Philippe II, Duke of Orléans regent for Louis XV?
Yes, but only because Louis XV‘s mother was already dead when her son became King.
Catherine de’ Medici was an hated parvenue who had never held any kind of political power and still was regent for her underage son, Marie de Medici also was seen as parvenue and she was her son‘s regent, Anne of Austria was the sister of the enemy King and the French Parliament annulled Louis XIII’s will (who established a Council of Regency for his son for limiting the power of his hated wife) giving Anne the regency for her son with full powers…
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Very interesting thank you, I will make note of that for future installments!
Oh, factionalism in the royalist side?
In a strange way, too many cooks spoiling the broth is probably a useful analogy here.
You can go much further in time, all the way to Anne of Russia, mother of Phillip August, and probably pick up more examples in a way. 😂
In this specific case, MA would be the only one with at least theoretical financial and military backing while the two alternatives were just beggars fully dependent on whoever was ready to pay for their expenses. BTW, was there any precedent of abdication in France? If not, Louis may not even contemplate it: he was short of the skills and brains but not of a dignity and the very move would create a terrible precedent.
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I was just citing the most recent examples, who were also all women who had more reasons for being passed over for the Regency than Antoinette.
True. Either Louis is captured or he will stay as King
No argument there: I just pointed out that tradition was a very old one and applicable not just to the mothers but also to the suitable close female relatives like Anne de Beaujeu.
BTW, I was mistaken: Anne of Kiev was mother of Phillip I. Mother of Phillip II August was Adèle de Champagne who also was a regent. Then there was Blanche de Castille, mother of Luis IX. In total there were 7 female regents vs. 6 males so, besides other factors, the precedent would work for MA.
Not just captured, he has to be executed. As long as he is alive he is a legitimate king.
This is possible (with Francis I providing a precedent) but the regent is still MA, if she is not captured.
This is actually a good point, I don't think there is any precedent for it. And you're right, his dignity and royal position is probably the last thing Louis XVI has left.
Absolutely. With Antoinette alive Provence and Artois have ZERO chances to get any regency
These backward looking precedents for regency are undoubtedly correct but as a counterpoint one can look forward into the constitutional monarchy period to 1842. Upon the death of Louis Philippe's son and heir Ferdinand Philippe, the latter's foreign wife was excluded from the potential regency of her son in favor of Ferdinand's younger brother. The regency never materialized because of 1848, but it suggests how a constitutional regime might act differently from the ancien regime.