Snake River Civilization Planning Thread

[Eparkhos]

After further reflection, I've decided to move the center of my Great Basin Civilization thread to the Snake River (despite it not being in the GB. Close enough for horshoes, hand grenades and government work). I've been doing some outlining and will be posting it here. If you have any suggestions, please make them.

 

[Eparkhos]

Note: This list does not apply to plants domesticated outside the Snake River Plain, and is not final.

(Wild Cultivars

Lomatium nudicaule - Indian celery, used by natives in OTL. Tubers and stem used for food, seeds used as medicine for coughs and sore throats, tubers larger than other species.

Amaranthus: Likely hybrid of A.hybridus and A.palmeri. Inherits extreme growth, fast seeding, and drought resistance from A.palmeri and the all-around edibility (seeds, leaves and root are all edible) and easy harvesting of A.hybridus. A union, stronger than the sum of its parts.

Balsamorhiza hookeri: Basalmroot common across the Great Basin, produces edible seeds and fruit, is quite drought resistant and grows pretty much everywhere.
Balsamorhiza sagittata: Basalmroot common across the Great Basin, is completely edible, drought resistant and has regular growing seasons.
hybrid?

Lupinus argenteus: Lupine species found in the lands around the Snake Gorge, largest beans out of the family but otherwise unnoteworthy. Annual plant, rather easy to farm, so it should be domesticable.

Oryzopsis hymenoides: Still important as a source of famine food and for growing in fringe environments, but not as important as in the GSLV. Seeds are edible, and the rest of the plant can be used for medicine.

Allium bisceptrum: Same as last time. Ability to be grown during the winter would make it quite important, and it would provide a source of famine food. Bulbs would be their primary value, but stem and leaves would also be eaten.

Trifolium douglasii: Species of wild clover. Fruit and seeds are edible but small. Would likely be allowed to spread into farming areas for their fruit before their rejuvenating properties would be found.

Distichlis spicata: Useful as a famine food. Its real value comes from its ability to extract salt from the soil and excrete it.

Apocynum cannabinum: Poisonous, but its seeds are edible and it can be used to provide fiber on a very impressive scale.

Asclepias cryptoceras: Relative of milkweed, capable of growing in very dry areas. Used primarily as a fiber crop, but its seeds and roots can also be eaten.

Populus trichocarpa: Tree used primarily for lumber, due to its fast growing period.

Juniperus scopulorum: Slow-growing species of juniper, used for medicinal purposes and burned for ceremonial uses. Berries can be used as a spice, and in particular a ground concentration of wood and berry can be used as a coffee substitute. Bark is edible, and can be ground up into flour.

Hordeum brachyantherum: Would originate as a weed before being unintentionally domesticated by Vavilovianistic processes. Mostly used as a secondary food source and/or famine food.

Opuntia polyacantha: Species of prickly-pear cactus widespread in the Snake River. Grows primarily on bad ground untenable by other species, but its fruit is very sweet and can be turned into candy or alcohol.

Camassia quamash: Camass. Flowering plants with a large edible tuber, would grow primarily away from the river and would be used as a source of food by nomads and farmers.

 

[Eparkhos]

https://imgur.com/FReaSmb

Despite its large size, the Snake River's Plain contains little arable land, mostly due to its tendency to form canyons. Without irrigation, only a relatively small part of the Plain (and the Bear River Valley, which is again close enough for government work) could support a sedentary population through a mixture of farming and fishing. For the sake of the discussion, these regions will be referred to from left to right as the 'Boise Plain', 'Grand View Wetlands', 'Shoshone Falls + Burley Plain', 'Upper Snake Plain' and 'Bear River Valley'

Prior to the domestication of plants, the Shoshone/Burley region would be the most populous, as Shoshone Falls contains the largest salmon run in the region. Small settlements would likely cluster around that and other salmon runs, centered within the canyon but spreading out into the lands above the cliffs. The soil wouldn't be very good, though, so they would still rely on fishing for food.

I think the Boise Plain would be the first region where plants would be domesticated. It has the best soils by far, the longest growing season and access to the lower salmon runs. Camass, which would probably be one of the staple crops, would occur naturally in great numbers in the region, encouraging the natives to adopt semi-sedentary foodways. It would have enough exposure to outside raiders to encourage the development of states, but not too exposed. The lowlands around the river would allow for easy irrigation, as well, which would raise population densities enough to encourage state organization and outward expansion.

On a side note, the Grand View Wetlands and the Muddy Lake Plains--between Roberts and Dubois--would both be home to a number of migratory birds and captive populations of fish, which would encourage the natives to become semi-sedentary. Over time, I could easily see them adopting some limited forms of agriculture, and eventually diking the shallower parts to create rich farmland.

Finally, the Upper Snake Plain and Bear Valley would probably be late to farming. The region has a shorter growing season, subject to more erratic weather and has much harder soils than lands further down the river. Nonetheless, it has the potential to be farmed and I think that it would be farmed, just because of the proliferation of agriculture nearby. There wouldn't be a salmon run, although steelhead trout would run up the lower half of the Upper Snake Plain and provide an excellent source of food, and some species of plants such as Indian saltgrass or chia would grow readily in the Bear River Valley, creating pressures to adopt agriculture to the north.

Again, this is just a rough outline. Thoughts?

 

[Arkenfolm]

I think you'd definitely have a domesticated Lomatium species (as the Columbia Plateau/Snake River area are centers of diversity for that genus) and maybe also a domesticated Lewisia (bitterroot) species which was another important staple and that genus also has a lot of diversity in the Great Basin and Columbia Plateau. Maybe Claytonia perfoliata (Miner's Lettuce) too.

A lot of the agriculture would probably be replaced by crops from further east. Not so much maize (it didn't take well in Idaho during the late 1st millennium) but definitely sunflowers and squash.

This region also extends east to Jackson Hole and west to the Blue Mountains/Powder River area and that western area is definitely fit for being a very early center of plant domestication. It's also hard to imagine things not very early on incorporating the Lower Snake and Mid-Columbia region given the same environment and lifestyle and similar challenges to overcome.

 

[Eparkhos]

I think you'd definitely have a domesticated Lomatium species (as the Columbia Plateau/Snake River area are centers of diversity for that genus) and maybe also a domesticated Lewisia (bitterroot) species which was another important staple and that genus also has a lot of diversity in the Great Basin and Columbia Plateau. Maybe Claytonia perfoliata (Miner's Lettuce) too.

A lot of the agriculture would probably be replaced by crops from further east. Not so much maize (it didn't take well in Idaho during the late 1st millennium) but definitely sunflowers and squash.

This region also extends east to Jackson Hole and west to the Blue Mountains/Powder River area and that western area is definitely fit for being a very early center of plant domestication. It's also hard to imagine things not very early on incorporating the Lower Snake and Mid-Columbia region given the same environment and lifestyle and similar challenges to overcome.

Thanks for the Claytonia suggestion, I somehow missed that. I'm also aware that a lot of these plants would be supplanted by eastern crops, I was just spitballing. TBH excluding Jackson Hole was just a brain snarl, and it would probably be settled fairly early on.

If I may ask, what do you think of the region in terms of domesticates? I've been doing some research, and it appears that otters would be an excellent and fairly easy domesticate--they live in groups, happily give birth in different locations, have a quick growing period and would be very useful for fishing and hunting small game--but otherwise, it seems like the region is a little short.

 

[Eparkhos]

I feel like I should elaborate on why I've changed the location of the first plant domestication. Simply put, the SLV's ground is too hard to be farmed with premodern technology. More elaborately put, the ground is so hard that the Mormons shattered iron plows attempting to farm it in the 1840s. There's just no way Neolithic farmers could get enough seeds in the ground to make farming viable.

On a side note, the marshes around the edges of the Salt Lake and Utah Lake support enough fish/shrimp and waterfowl to give the hunter-gatherers a high population density. If--and that's a big if--some sort of water plant can be crossed with the salt-leeching traits of D.spicata, then some sort of water-based farming might be possible. The Sevier-Sanpitch Valley should also be able to support agriculture, although it would have to be introduced from somewhere else.

 

[Eparkhos]

I don't have much time today, so these are the species of animals I think most likely to be domesticated in the Snake River region.

Lontra canadensis: American river otter. Far and away the easiest to domesticate. They have a complex existing social structure, rely on burrows of other species to whelp, have varied and easy to provide diets and reach maturity relatively quickly. Practically speaking, they could be used as fishing aides--water dogs?--as well as to find crawdads, frogs, salamanders and waterfowl.

Lepus californicus: Black-tailed jackrabbit. Plentiful to the region, it feeds on commonly available plants and so can fairly easily be kept in captivity. Willing to approach humans if need be, i.e. under drought conditions. Has fast reproduction rate and time, and can be easily bred for meat and fur.

Oreamnos americanus: Mountain goat. Most live at altitude, but could be captured at salt licks at lower elevations. Lives in herds with a semi-coherent social structure, so can be domesticated in that way. Valuable source of wool, meat and milk and can be fed on practically anything, so would quickly become a valuable source of food.

 

[Eparkhos]

I've been doing some conlanging in recent days, and this is the phonological inventory of 'Ākquqatsuti, the lingua franca of the Snake Valley proper. The proto-Ktaxna, who will be the first to settle in the valley, will eventually split into different but related ethnic groups as local centers of power emerge. The two big descendant languages will be those west of Shoshone Falls and those East of it, tentatively called 'Anāpiquqa and Nantikata respectively, but 'Ākquqatsuti will remain the language of trade, diplomacy and likely statecraft.

Characters /in slashes/ are the Romanized spelling, characters [in brackets] are the IPA characters.

'Ākquqatsuti follows a Verb-Subject-Object pattern and so is head-initial regarding verbs, prepositions, pronouns and possessor/possessee compounds. However, the adjectives are verb-derived (i.e. a literal translation of 'the sky is blue' would be 'the sky is being blue' rather than 'the sky, the thing that is blue, is).

Also, the syllable structure is (C) C V (C), so keep in mind that each set of consonant-consonant-vowel should be pronounced independently and then strung together.

 

[TimTurner]

On a side note, the marshes around the edges of the Salt Lake and Utah Lake support enough fish/shrimp and waterfowl to give the hunter-gatherers a high population density. If--and that's a big if--some sort of water plant can be crossed with the salt-leeching traits of D.spicata, then some sort of water-based farming might be possible. The Sevier-Sanpitch Valley should also be able to support agriculture, although it would have to be introduced from somewhere else.

Honestly, a SLC-Utah Lake cluster has shades of the Valley of Mexico (marsh, water availability in broadly arid region, etc.)

 

[Eparkhos]

My objective for the next few days is to lay a solid groundwork, a proper timeline, for the domestication of plants, the spread of agriculture, rise of cities and civilization, and the historical periods of this civilization. This is going to be the meatiest part of the prewriting, and I'm facing it with more than a little trepidation, so I'm going to try and list the major factors on the taming of plants and the rise of organized states in the Snake Valley, as a starting point if nothing else.

The Snake River: The river has an immense impact on the valley, obviously, but the way in which it flows has an even greater one. The Snake has carved a narrow gorge, n some places more of a canyon than a valley, and it is those valleys that concentrations of population will first occur. The river is broken up by a number of waterfalls, the most important being Shoshone Falls in the middle of the Plain, which blocks the salmon from moving further up the flow. This is practically a magnet for a major settlement, and I'd imagine a major power would arise here off the ability to control fish stocks alone. As an interesting side note, steelhead trout can make it over the falls, so this would probably be a heraldic or similar point in the future. Anyway, the river's floods would be of vital importance to the farmers, so the first local organizations might be villages banded together to create dikes and diversions to keep fields from being flooded with the spring rains. I'll probably add on to tis later.

Honestly, a SLC-Utah Lake cluster has shades of the Valley of Mexico (marsh, water availability in broadly arid region, etc.)

Here's an idea: The aforementioned D.spicata hybrid is created, and water-farming/shrimping begin to pop up on the edge of the GSL, but because of the hard soil no real empires can develop and it remains a backwater. Then, as the Old World diseases hit, these statelets unify under one banner. Because of their isolation, they don't get hit by the diseases early on, and as their neighbors are ravaged by plagues the Sohana sweep across the desert....

 

[Light Jammings]

How is the grea t drought gonn a affect the snake river civiliszation?

 

[ramones1986]

What RL (proto)language(s) you based on for 'Ākquqatsuti?

 

[Pesterfield]

Practically speaking, they could be used as fishing aides

A show I saw about otter fishing in Bengal that might be useful.
The fishermen put the nets out and the otters go further out then drive fish toward the nets.

The interesting part is the guy who fished with them didn't know how to train them, the otters taught their own kits.

 

[Arkenfolm]

I've been doing some conlanging in recent days, and this is the phonological inventory of 'Ākquqatsuti, the lingua franca of the Snake Valley proper. The proto-Ktaxna, who will be the first to settle in the valley, will eventually split into different but related ethnic groups as local centers of power emerge. The two big descendant languages will be those west of Shoshone Falls and those East of it, tentatively called 'Anāpiquqa and Nantikata respectively, but 'Ākquqatsuti will remain the language of trade, diplomacy and likely statecraft.

Characters /in slashes/ are the Romanized spelling, characters [in brackets] are the IPA characters.

View attachment 660827

'Ākquqatsuti follows a Verb-Subject-Object pattern and so is head-initial regarding verbs, prepositions, pronouns and possessor/possessee compounds. However, the adjectives are verb-derived (i.e. a literal translation of 'the sky is blue' would be 'the sky is being blue' rather than 'the sky, the thing that is blue, is).

Also, the syllable structure is (C) C V (C), so keep in mind that each set of consonant-consonant-vowel should be pronounced independently and then strung together.

Were the earliest people actually relatives of the Kutenai OTL? I've seen evidence the very early people of the Snake River Plain were Algic speakers since the area is in-between and on a natural migration route between where speakers of Algonquian languages later appeared (north and west of the Great Lakes area) and where Yurok-Wiyot first appeared (mid-Columbia Plateau, where they later moved to the coast and then south to northern California). I could see a language related to any of the three branches of Algic or even a fourth branch of Algic being their language.

 

[Eparkhos]

How is the grea t drought gonn a affect the snake river civiliszation?

Which one?

The Greatest of the Droughts, as I like to call it, should run from around 6500 BC to 3000 BC as it did in OTL. The Snake River Plain is a rather dry place even in wet weather, so the locals will be forced to cluster around the Snake and its gorge. I think that this might force the sedentarization of the locals, paradoxically enough, as they would no longer be able to supplement their diet with hunting and gathering on the now-barren plains and be forced to rely upon agriculture and aquaculture. Given that it would peak around 4000 BC as in OTL, the back face of that should see the first farmers emerge. I think. IDK, I haven't been able to find too many sources

What RL (proto)language(s) you based on for 'Ākquqatsuti?

Primarily Ktunaxa (modern, I'm afraid, I haven't been able to find any reconstructions of the proto-language) with a little Yurok thrown in to try and represent intake from the locals of the region.

A show I saw about otter fishing in Bengal that might be useful.
The fishermen put the nets out and the otters go further out then drive fish toward the nets.

The interesting part is the guy who fished with them didn't know how to train them, the otters taught their own kits.

If that's true--and I'm not saying it's not, I just made the mistake of trusting bad information last time--that's another good point towards otters being domesticated. I'll look into it, thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Were the earliest people actually relatives of the Kutenai OTL? I've seen evidence the very early people of the Snake River Plain were Algic speakers since the area is in-between and on a natural migration route between where speakers of Algonquian languages later appeared (north and west of the Great Lakes area) and where Yurok-Wiyot first appeared (mid-Columbia Plateau, where they later moved to the coast and then south to northern California). I could see a language related to any of the three branches of Algic or even a fourth branch of Algic being their language.

No, from what I've read the Kutenai have lived in their home region since around 9,500 BC (if you believe the Goatfall hypothesis). However, the real PoD for this timeline is that culturally similar cousins of the Kutenai living on the Upper Snake get pushed southward through the Snake Gorge to the plains of the same name instead of being conquered and assimilated as in OTL. I'll elaborate about this in the section on the PoD, but it is somewhat major that the Algic-speakers no longer inhabit the western part of the valley.

That said, it's entirely possible a fourth branch of Algic might pop up on the fringe of the region. Maybe in the Bear River region?

 

[Light Jammings]

The Greatest of the Droughts, as I like to call it, should run from around 6500 BC to 3000 BC as it did in OTL. The Snake River Plain is a rather dry place even in wet weather, so the locals will be forced to cluster around the Snake and its gorge. I think that this might force the sedentarization of the locals, paradoxically enough, as they would no longer be able to supplement their diet with hunting and gathering on the now-barren plains and be forced to rely upon agriculture and aquaculture. Given that it would peak around 4000 BC as in OTL, the back face of that should see the first farmers emerge. I think. IDK, I haven't been able to find too many sources

I was asking about the 11th century drought, btw

Edit : Lol, i thought the snake river valley was in the southwest, my bad

 

[Eparkhos]

I hoped to post an outline today, but no such luck. Because of the secondary source of food provided by the river, as well as environmental pressures from all sides, the first towns would begin to develop concurrently with the rise of agriculture, and it's making planning quite difficult. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions, please let me know.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

So, what items would be traded, you think? Even neolithic (which is the stage you are roughly imagining?) societies had rather extensive trade networks (even if each trader generally didn't go too far).

 

[Arkenfolm]

So, what items would be traded, you think? Even neolithic (which is the stage you are roughly imagining?) societies had rather extensive trade networks (even if each trader generally didn't go too far).

I'd expect it to be like OTL where the people in this area traded obsidian (the major good), dried food (berries, salmon, and especially camas), and finished goods. Likely bison hides/bison robes, since there were very few bison west of the Snake River Plain (in eastern Oregon they went extinct before 1600, probably because of drought and overhunting). Maybe slaves too although slavery was bigger on the Columbia Plateau and especially west of the Cascades.

 

[Eparkhos]

So, what items would be traded, you think? Even neolithic (which is the stage you are roughly imagining?) societies had rather extensive trade networks (even if each trader generally didn't go too far).

I'd expect it to be like OTL where the people in this area traded obsidian (the major good), dried food (berries, salmon, and especially camas), and finished goods. Likely bison hides/bison robes, since there were very few bison west of the Snake River Plain (in eastern Oregon they went extinct before 1600, probably because of drought and overhunting). Maybe slaves too although slavery was bigger on the Columbia Plateau and especially west of the Cascades.

To build on what Arkenfolm said:

The most widely-exported goods, the goods which would effectively become synonymous with the Snake in outsiders' eyes, will be obsidian and bison products. Obsidian will likely be the chief export, just because Idaho is practically lousy with it while there are only a handful of deposits on the Columbia Plateau, let alone in Cascadia itself, and before the advent of bronze it will be the most useful tool-making good. As Arkenfolm said, the Snake plain was also home to a sizable population of bison several times larger than the Columbia's. I'd imagine there would also be a good bit of gold and silver found in streams around the Sawtoothes as well, so a metalworking culture might arise that exports tools and jewellery. Salmon and trout might also be exported eastwards, and overall the region would be of great importance in trade between the Columbia Plateau and the Plains.

There's probably more I'm forgetting.