Slow Drift to War Europe 1984

Stonepile- Kennedy will be either at Greensbrier in West Virginia with the rest of congress or he will go to Hyannisport to die with the world. I have not decided that bit of info. Also the Soviet Union knew about Greenbrier so its on a target list. The presidency is not likely to be his.
 
I wonder what it would take to wipe out Greenbrier. How hardened the facilities were etc - obviously you need as groundburst of significant yield, and this is the sort of target you would hit with a missile. As always with missiles, and more so with Soviet ones, the issue of CEP comes in. I would expect, if you are really serious about making sure the facilities go away, you'll need to target this with 2-3 groundbursts with proper timing to avoid confliction. Of course this could be a target hit with a missile and then serviced again with a bomber, just to make sure. OTL there were other continuity bunkers, some of which remain secret to this day.
 
sloreck- I believe three groundbursts in three separate attacks with say seven to ten minutes between each attack. Also given how efficiently the KGB operated i would be surprised it they did not have a pretty good idea of where all the main bunkers were. Bombers i have to think on that.
 
Farmer: If you are using 3 groundbursts, a lot depends on how accurate the actual strikes are. In theory this could be a target for a bomber with parameters as to whether or not the bomber drops there, if the hits look good they go somewhere else.
 
Farmer: If you are using 3 groundbursts, a lot depends on how accurate the actual strikes are. In theory this could be a target for a bomber with parameters as to whether or not the bomber drops there, if the hits look good they go somewhere else.
Wouldn't a bomber be shot down before arrival? to get to WV you would need to fly a bomber over Maryland, Northern Virginia and Western Europe which I am sure would be either heavily radiated or have its AA shields on high alert.
The only other option's would be to fly across the pacific and then the continental united states which is a impossibly long flight and dangerous flight or fly over the polar ice caps.
 
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At high altitude the radiation won't matter. As a delayed strike, if there has been this sort of exchange, air defenses are going to be seriously degraded. Let's just say a flight plan to avoid areas of potential explosions will be worked out.
 
A friend flew B-52Gs in the 80s. He said once when he was on alert, he figured his target was a leadership bunker. His assigned bomber was loaded with two B53 bombs (9MT each) and his mission briefing was simply "when you get there you'll see a big crater. Drop both your bombs into it."
 
Stonepile- The first waves of nukes will screwup a lot of the defenses. From my reading most of the Soviet bomber crews figured they were on one way missions. Also secondary bombing missions can be conducted a day or two later with what ever bombers that survive. That is if enough of the satellite networks is still functioning to provide any accurate data. Which is debatable.

USN vet- Interesting and very believeable.
 
sloreck- I believe three groundbursts in three separate attacks with say seven to ten minutes between each attack. Also given how efficiently the KGB operated i would be surprised it they did not have a pretty good idea of where all the main bunkers were. Bombers i have to think on that.
That's why the Soviets had a couple dozen or so SS-18 Mod 3 with a 25 MT warhead. For all the large hard targets. NORAD in Colorado and North Bay, Ontario were a couple of the targets. If they knew of Greenbriar, then that would be another. The bomber would be a nice to have but the missiles would be the main strike.
 
I can't say for Soviet mission planning, but it would probably be similar to US planning. When flight profiles for nuclear missions were planned, information was available so that in addition to the usual route planning to avoid radar, AAA, and SAMs, you were able to plan around expected NUDETS (nuclear detonations) from missile strikes, other attacks etc so that you would not be in the area of a planned nuke going off thereby knocking you out of the sky. Avoiding downwind fallout, well you really could not do much dodging that because knowing the winds somewhere over enemy territory would be difficult. In any case, flying through a fallout cloud would not keep you from completing your mission. By the 1980s with luck most missions were not guaranteed to be one way - although tankers being when and where planned was going to be very iffy. Even then, especially for smaller aircraft with nuclear missions (such as all USN nuclear missions and some USAF), good luck meant exited out of the USSR before you had to land or bail out, not necessarily returning to a US base. I knew crews whose nuclear missions somewhat earlier ended with "after servicing the target head for (name of NATO or neutral country) and stretch your fuel. Bail out as late as possible then walk to the border." Not a terribly pleasant idea, bailing out over a country you've just dropped nukes on does not endear you to any locals you meet. I heard rumors, nothing I could confirm, that some crews who were going to do airbursts had decided to arm the weapons and then descend to the planned altitude without releasing the weapon - a quick and painless end, they mostly knew there was not going to be anyone to go back to.
 
kessock- Your right about those SS-18'S with the 25 MT warheads purely designed to take out command centers. From what i understand there was at least one more underground command center in Pennsylvania. Like as not there were others scattered around and i believe but i am not certain that the Soviet had some missiles with 3 to 5 MT warheads but some were scrapped or modified so the record is not clear at to the numbers available.

sloreck- Your pretty much right about the bomber forces most would not come home but some would make it back. I have made an effort during this crisis for the bomber and missile crews to know that there families have been move to low risk target area. Ellsworth went to Casper Wy, Grand Forks Mt. to Kalispell Mt. Minot AFB to Buffalo Wy. The idea was to give the officers and enlistedmen the belief their families had a chance to survive. Moral is all important.
 
17/16 Aug War Day -7
Moscow Kissinger arrival in Moscow was covered by the worlds press. But it was noted that Kissinger seemed to be very grim looking. The Soviet officials were not in the least concerned with Kissinger’s attitude. All that mattered was he was here, that meant as far as they were concerned, the deception plan was working.

200 Nautical miles to the west of Ferrol
The Hermes Carrier Task Force slowly came into view the two groups of ships move in a parallel formation. Then the Plumleaf left the Hermes Carrier Group and joined up with the Spanish ships. The Plumleaf was joining the replenishment unit of the current operation. Then the Hermes and her escorts pickup speed and they began to move south at a greater speed.


Brussels
Rogers was going over operation Crystal Ball it was looking better and better all the time. But they had a plan. Now they had to get the politicians to go along with it. That would be a lot harder and also the more people that knew about the plan the more likely it would leak out. Secrecy was essential and that was fact. The idea was to use the knowledge of roughly when the attack would begin to make an initial first strike. Not a deep penetration raid, but a quick hammering of the first wave of attacking Warsaw Pact units. Just enough to knock the initial assault back on its heels.

Bonne
The news that the Italians were not going to setup north of the Danube did not go down well with the Germans. The Germans were of the opinion that the Italians did not care about handing a piece of Bavaria over to the WARSAW PACK without little or no resistance. Chancellor Kohl had called Prime Minister Craxi to talk him into support the German plan. Craxi refused to order what his senior officers had advised against. But he did offer to add another division to the forces being sent to Northern Austria. The Piedmonte division would be the division sent by Italy. Craxi was not going to tell Chancellor Kohl that the he was sending the least battle-ready division of the Italian Army to reinforce the 3rd Corp. In the end Chancellor Kohl accepted the offer and now a difficult decision had to be made.

The German government was opposed to just handing territory over to the enemy. But there were not enough troops to cover the southern flank and still be able to defend the front line. In the end it was decided to order a pullback. General Wagner had been opposed to withdrawing to behind the Danube. But when the orders came, he began to plan the withdrawal. Previously he had ordered the start of construction of defensive position on the west side of the Danube and now he ordered the program accelerated. He responded to his orders with the message the withdrawal would begin in forty-eight hours.

Brussels

General Rogers had received his briefing and he had heard an earful from the Germans. But as he had pointed out to the German officers, he could not force Italy to do what it did not want to do. What he did not mention he had been less than enthused about the German 2ND Corps current position. The decision to take up positions behind the Danube was a plus in his mind. The Italian refusal put its force on the wrong side of the Danube was the proper decision and forced the Germans to make the right decision. But he was not to enthused about the extra division being sent to the northern Austria. The Piedmonte division was mostly made up of reservists with mostly dated equipment. The Germans would be pissed on they found out about the division’s actual degree of combat readiness.

Suddenly he decided that it was time to push the Germans to take their 1ST Corp and pull it out of its position in a salient to the east of Hamburg. They could shorten the line and release another division into the reserves. The current position held by the 1st Corp had WARSAW PACT forces in large numbers on all three sides of the salient. He decided to pull a surprise inspection tomorrow with the Senior Budeswehr commander in that area and point out the advantages of pulling out of the salient. He knew that the West German government hated the idea of giving up parts of West Germany. But in doing so they could shorten line and increase the reserves and that was what he would emphasize.

Saltzburg Austria
General Conti received the news of his newest division to be assigned to his Corp was the Piedmont division. In his mind labeling the division as second line was a bit on the generous side. His decision was to send a request that the Trento division be sent instead.

Washington DC
The house the vote on the Democratic Parties plan to take the negotiations away from Reagan had come up for a vote and it actually failed by a larger margin than expected. Several Congressmen and women had decided in the last day or so that the plan was not a good option. Especially since the people in their districts were opposed to the plan.

The peace movement was not happy about the failure of the bill. Members of the Peace movement took to the streets that night in candle light vigils across the country. While the leaders of the Peace Movement announced that that the people of America should take to the streets to protest Reagans mad rush to war.

18/17 Aug WAR D-6
The peace talks were once again on, the negotiators were now facing each other and the talks began. The Soviet negotiators were not giving anything away. Kissinger was now certain that Soviet Union was not interested in negotiations. All they were doing was buying time. He decided that in his phone call to the president, he would confirm that the Soviet Union was just engaged in a delaying action.

The Hermes and her escort group sighted the Dedalo and her escort group. Then the two formations merged together. Almirante Juan Tomas Ruiz Garcia was proud of the fact he had been chosen for this command. He was watching as the two groups of ships merged together and then the Task Force again moving to the south. In just a few days the Spanish navy would engage in its first actual naval battle with its carrier. He had been given the opportunity to show the world just what the Spanish Armada was capable.

Uelzen Germany
The headquarters of the 1st Corp was in the area around Uelzen a large number of highways came together making the town strategically important as a crossroads. The German Minister of Defense was also visiting. He was not one bit happy about what was happening. But he was still doing his job. General Rogers sat through the briefing listening to the number of Soviet and Polish troops in the region. One thing was certain the Soviet Army was looking to cutoff the bulk of the 1st Corp and destroy it in a cauldron operation.

The Minister of Defense was also not happy about what he was seeing. It was all too easy for the Soviet Army to cutoff a third of the Bundeswehr and destroy it. By the end of the conversation it was obvious he would be pushing for the immediate evacuation of the salient. The commander of the 1st Corp was told to look over a new line of resistance and consider how quickly his troops could be pulled back.

While the commanding General of the 1st Corp would not admit it he was happy to pulling his Corp out of what he considered to be and overly exposed position. No sooner that Roger and the Minister of Defense had left. A plan was pulled out and all the senior Corp officers, division and brigade commander of the Bundeswehr and the Territorial Army were called in for a meeting. What was going on no one could tell and with the Soviet and East German spy organizations severely crippled it would be a few days before word of this meeting would arrive on the other side of the Iron Curtin. The commander of 1st Corp made it clear that he wanted to begin pulling out of the salient in no more than two days. All they were waiting for was a call from the Minister of Defense telling him that the Chancellor had ordered the pull back. By 7pm the order arrived and the code word went out in the clear. Griffin Rising would begin in forty-eight hours.

19/18 Aug WAR DAY-5
The convoy carrying the Australian Armies 1st brigade arrived at Pusan and the unloading began immediately.
The La Sahir took up position just outside of the port of Conakry, he was to let the High Command know if the squadron sortied. At the same time the Rubis took up position outside the harbor where the supply ship for the Soviet submarines were docked. He was to follow her if she set sail before the war started if after she was to sink the ship or any submarine that entered the area once the war started. At the same the Task Force continued its southern course.

Moscow
The world press was not happy about the conference, the word was that the Soviet Union was not negotiating in good faith. The word came from various members of the American diplomatic staff, people who were well known to the press. Some of the people doing the leaking were known to not be fond of President Reagans policies. That added credence to the reports. But at the same time no one wanted to report what was going on. They did not want to destroy even the last smallest chance for peaceful negotiations.

The first elements of the 3rd Corps units began moving behind the Danube, supply and other support elements were the first to move. Much of this movement was out of the sight of Soviet Force on the ground but their satellites did see the movement. But for now, the analysts were uncertain what was happening so it was decided to just keep an eye on things and see what happened.
 
This time the Germans won't be as foolish about salients and giving up territory as they were in WWII. Especially as these were bit they were going to lose anyways. Hopefully any potential assembly areas are pre-registered by NATO artillery, bridges, rail facilities, and even culverts are primed to be blown the minute things start, and very importantly civilians need to get out of these areas ASAP. As much as possible civilians need to be out at least 24hrs before the expect attack. Other "little" details like all gas stations have their tanks emptied or are set up to be blown or contaminated (sugar from the local supermarket will do nicely) - the WP was planning in using such civilian facilities to stretch their supplies. Likewise supermarkets should be emptied as much as possible with the food going to troops in the defense lines or civilians leaving the area. Germany won't do scorched earth (other than blowing bridges/culverts/highway overpasses) but they need to leave as little behind of use to the WP forces as possible. If I were in charge of the engineers I would enjoy leaving booby traps in various places the Russians might want to loot or use - btw leave all the liquor behind, it will only cause problems for the WP NCOs and officers. Don't even lock the liquor stores. Consider adding things like ipecac or stronger to some liquor...

Knowing when the war is going to start even now with just a week to go gives you a chance to do these preparations right, and while the "propaganda" of evacuating civilians may not look good, better they get out of the way now than be caught in the fighting or used as human shields (anybody think the Soviets would not enjoy doing this with German civilians...).
 

ferdi254

Banned
Farmer the German capital was named Bonn not Bonne. There is no highway going into Uelzen. And for the salient east of Hamburg I can only assume you mean the Lüchow Dannenberg County. If that is the case no defense there was planned anyway. If you mean the area directly east and northeast of Hamburg that was pivotal territory and perfectly defendable.

And once more the number of troops is just 11:10 favoring the WP.
 
ferdi254 are you sure you can read a map Uelzen has a network of roads all around it. The L250, L270, 4 ,70 ,491,493 all are in the area in and around Uelzen. Also how do you know that no defense would be planned for that salient. Also so I mispelled Bonn oh well.
 
sloreck- One of the concerns was the West Germans desire to not give up any territory. Also evacuation is going to happen and laying of minefields and the construction of fortifications.
 
Yes, the West Germans did not want to concede any territory. However reality has to set in - you can have some forces to harass the Soviets, mines/boobytraps etc but defending every inch of border, especially when you are outnumbered as NATO is, is a recipe for disaster. Attrit the enemy, conserve your forces, and what is yielded can be retrieved. Expand your limited assets unnecesarily and you lose the game.
 
sloreck - True from what i read the West Germans were almost pathological about holding onto terrain but a real war on the way has a way of making people see reality.
 
As a small technical note, prepared defensive positions made just within a few days won't be similar to ones constructed during WWII or Vietnam - but much stronger. Fortifying a position in 1980's won't be an effort with bunch of grunts having spades, saws and axes, but construction firm grade equipment such as backhoe loaders, bulldozers, etc. ready made reinforced concrete elements, the grunts having chainsaws to cut out firing zones in the woods in hours instead of days required in WWII, Claymore mines etc. They won't be unbreakable, but will pose much greater challenge than quickly prepared ditches.

Keep up the good work!
 
Yes, the West Germans did not want to concede any territory. However reality has to set in - you can have some forces to harass the Soviets, mines/boobytraps etc but defending every inch of border, especially when you are outnumbered as NATO is, is a recipe for disaster. Attrit the enemy, conserve your forces, and what is yielded can be retrieved. Expand your limited assets unnecesarily and you lose the game.
One who tries to defend everything, defends nothing.
 
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