Slow Drift to War Europe 1984

[Farmer12]

ferdi254 first i made no comment about 50 percent of the Soviet Missile force not working. The point i was making that both the United States and the Soviet Union had problems with the reliability and the accuracy of their ICBM forces. I does not matter how well they work if they miss the target. Second you seem to forget that with tanks and APC's you can go out and see how many work during manuveurs. Finally it does not matter how many tank you have on the whole front it how many tanks you have at the point of decision that is what matter. Remember France 1940. As for nuking cities i was talking a full out strike and not the use of tactical nukes. I personally believe that it would be nearly impossible to fight a limited nuclear war. So i am looking much more broadly at the use of nuclear weapons. I do admit though that a WWIII limited nuclear war scenario could be interesting. Some variant of Twilight 2000 i would think.

 

[sloreck]

I agree that a limited nuclear war is highly improbable - once they start being used if, and only if, both sides stare into the abyss and mutually rapidly seek out an end, could you prevent the gradual escalation to strategic use.

 

[Farmer12]

That is the hope, but once you started downhill its damned hard to put brakes on the situation.

 

[Farmer12]

10/9 Aug. Interregnum The funeral of Konstantin Chernenko went off without a hitch as his body took its place in the Kremlin Wall Necropolis. Once again, the world watched to see if any there was any sign of who was going to be the next leader with no luck as usual.

11pm Brussels General Roger was looking over the front lines, British divisions were now on their way. But two of the divisions were infantry divisions. Northern Germany did have some rugged areas favorable to the use of infantry but most of those areas were further behind the line and could be maneuvered around. Not only that it would not free up any mechanized or armored divisions. What annoyed him was that the German 3rd Corp was sitting in territory that only an idiot would attempt to assault in force. Freeing up the 3rd Corp was a very tempting. The 6th Infantry Division and the 43rd Wessex as mostly light infantry would be ideal units to defend such rugged terrain. Now he had to convince the British and the Germans to do the switch. The German would probably like the idea free up one third of the Bundeswehr divisions for combat elsewhere would be an easy sell. The British would be tougher and he would probably have to sweeten the pot.

After a few minutes of careful thought, he decided on the appropriate bribes, the 107th ACR was equipped with M-60a3 would be the reserve unit. Artillery brigade the 45th, 103rd and the XI Corp Artillery. The 45th had three battalions of 8” SP, on the other hand the 103rd was two battalions of towed 155’s and finally the XI Corps artillery were one battalion of 155 SP’s one battalion 155mm Towed and one battalion of 8” SP.


First, he would talk to the Germans before talking to the British. He called in the German liaison officers. They cautiously interested there was some concern that the British would not hold on to German territory with the same tenacity they would also the current front line was much closer than General Rogers had ordered. On the other hand, freeing up an entire Corp. One third of the Bundeswehr was oh so very tempting and the terrain the British was extremely suitable for defense and using light infantry divisions made some sense despite the lack of mobility. But the addition of the 107th did mean that a potentially capable armored force but it was a National Guard unit, would be backing up the British divisions and the number of Artillery brigade the Americans were offering to provide was interesting. Finally, the German officers agreed to send the proposal with a positive recommendation. One officer commented now you have to get the British to agree. General Roger replied, “Well, once I know that Germany has accepted, I will go to the British.

London The Band Dire Straits announced that it was going to a recording studio in Montserrat to work on its next album. At the same time, it was noted that a lot of high power high profile people were moving themselves and their families to what was regarded as safe areas of the world. How soon they would follow no one was sure.

Black Hills Depot
The last shipment of Silver arrived at the Black Hills Depot so far it seemed like no one suspected the truth but one thing was certain everyone in the Black Hills was aware of the massive stockpile of food were being located at the Depot. The Commander at the Ellsworth AFB had enquired about making sure the families of the base personal who were now located in Casper Wyoming would be prioritized for the delivery of food. The Depot commander promised to prioritize the families, but since he really only had a few thousand tons of food if World War three broke out he would have a lot of explaining to do to a lot of people. But the new Secretary of Agriculture had made it clear that at least an additional five thousand tons of food supplies would be sent just in case the war did broke more if possible. The problem was that the ammunition bunkers did not have refrigeration units but it could store dried milk products. The flour and corn meal did not have that problem and shipments of canned meat were also shipped in. One suggestion was to move the items that needed to be refrigerated could be move to the Wind Cave national Park where the butter and cheese could be stored in a cooler environment. There was some talk about confiscating the all the production of SPAM and other canned meats for the post war recovery. The new Secretary of Agriculture was definitely considering the idea.

 

[sloreck]

MRE's first came out in 1981, although large scale distribution was after a few series of test with troops. Here, the production can be ramped up and given what they are being stockpiled for, the palatability improvements OTL are not going to be an issue. A person not doing physically active work will do just fine on 2 MREs a day (1250 calories each). If you throw in vitamin supplements (which need to be stored/stockpiled as well) and things like dried milk for children and pregnant women, you can see you can stay healthy and do well. Active workers and troops not sedentary should get 3 MRE a day. I also wonder if there are any old C-rations or K-rations around that are still usable (should be at least in part) these should be put someplace secure as every little bit will help. One particular supplement that needs to be produced in large numbers is iodine supplement, you need to take this to provide the iodine you need and therefore avoid the body absorbing radioactive iodine which will lead to thyroid cancer. The government needs to buy all the milk it can and have it either as canned or powdered milk or cheese (which can be stored in cool places not necessarily refrigerated) as milk after nukes is likely to have significant strontium-90 contamination, a bad thing.

The USA produces and has a lot of basic foodstuffs designed for shipping and storage in less optimal conditions under the "food for peace" program and similar to third world countries. Needless to say some of that or all of that can be "delayed" and stored in safe locations - if war does not happen it is sent, otherwise...

Any place where food is stored is going to need the following things: vehicles and fuel to distribute the food, troops and weapons to protect the depot and food shipments, a preplanned communications net (land and radio) so they no when and where to distribute. Potential food convoy routes need to be surveyed and planned with alternates.There will also need to be a predetermined ROE (rules of engagement) - looters WILL be shot, deadly force WILL be utilized to protect food and distribution, and anyone who interferes with proper distribution will face military justice - you know some local politicians or police etc will attempt to divert some food for themselves and families, and there is always the criminal element.

All of this has to be thought out and preplanned otherwise a good portion of the effort will be wasted/more inefficient than need be.

On the medical side, key stocks need to be accumulated and stored. One reality is that folks who depend on regular medications that need to be refrigerated (like insulin) are going to be in trouble. You are going to be down to very basic medications pretty quickly, things like chemotherapy drugs, anti-rejection drugs for transplant patients etc are going to go away, and also spare parts and reagents for most of the standard blood tests - in some cases you can go back to the old fashioned methods, but not for a lot of things. You will need glass syringes that can be resterilezed likewise needles - some disposable items can be resterilized and reused but only some and it has to be done very carefully. The reality is in a post exchange USA, even before you factor in radiation effects, and the folks killed/wounded, a lot of people who are kept alive and healthy by mundane care and drugs will die and anyone who needs more sophisticated treatment whether drugs or dialysis will go rather quickly. TRIAGE will be a word that the general population comes to know well, and not the province of medical providers.

 

[Farmer12]

sloreck- My understanding is that during this period the United States military was trying to use up as much of its stockpile of k-rations. What was happening to the MRE's being produced at this time i am not sure. But one thing is certain that large quantities of both rations are being shipped over seas. There stockpiles inside the United States but the military would have control of those stockpiles. Also there are K-rations being sold by many army surplus stores. Question is whether the military should remain in control of those stockpiles or the Department of Agriculture. The military may not want to give up those stockpiles.

The Food for Peace program which is under the control of the Department of Agriculture and it can make decisions on that. Foodstuff that are being sent overseas can be delayed. But Department of Agriculture also has control of massive stockpiles of food. Purchased to keep market prices up for farm products. In Missouri stored in caves are massive stockpiles of cheese so much so that those quantities will not be reached until the 2010's. One problem is that a lot of those food supplies are in warehouses in major cities so it will need to be shipped to other safer locations.

The various National Guard MP brigade that remain inside the United States and various other support personal. They can be given the mission of protecting the stockpiles of foods. But gathering the support vehicles and other equipment will be difficult with so much of the military's weapons and equipment being shipped overseas. Stocks of refurbished M-14's can be used and more civilian trucks can be purchased for use by the military.

The problems with looters, black marketeers and hoarders will happen. Keeping control of the of the system will be chaotic at best.

As for iodine i know from personal experience that dairy farms used diluted iodine to clean cows udders, i wonder if that could be given to people to protect them from radioactive iodine. As for stockpiles of medical supplies can be gathered but but the fighting will drain the supplies of many of the medicals supplies that need to be stockpiled. But your right people will die.

 

[sloreck]

In 1984 the USA had large stockpiles of various strategic materials, these included medical equipment and supplies in addition to raw materials - these stockpiles were drawn down in many cases after then end of the Cold War. Any "military rations like K-rations or MREs put in these different storage areas can, of course, be drawn upon by the military in case of need. Civilian trucks, pickups, and jeeps painted army green with appropriate lettering will actually be better for use by the food storage depots as in a post exchange situation parts for civilian vehicles will be more available, including cannibalizing damaged civilian vehicles.

In addition to organized MP units, if and when things go pear shaped there will be active duty military personnel at bases where training is going on, and recruits/draftees in the military and trained "enough" to use at least as interior or perimeter guards.

 

[Farmer12]

sloreck I agree with pretty much everything you have commented on. The only possible problem is that the Soviet Union may try to take out as many military bases. So a good portion of the recruits/draftees will probably become casualties from the strike. The next question is that how many of those troops stay with their units and how many desert, taking their weapons with them.

 

[sloreck]

Training bases that don't have a significant active unit component (example Ft McCoy in Wisconsin) are going to be way down the target list. Depending upon how fast a major strategic exchange develops, units at such bases can leave to pre-assigned rally points where some gear etc has been stashed. An example of this would be rations and tentage stashed at a state or national park not too close to a given base, trucks ready to go etc which means that even a couple of hours lead time means you can get folks with light weapons and ammo there and out of the danger zone. They can then take a deep breath and proceed to a designated site where they can be utilized - there ought to be several potential "final" destinations as one or more may be eliminated.

Desertion at all levels will be a problem, basically the more a command structure is intact, with the local command element key although national authority is necessary. Scared recruits are one problem, another is men who have families they know or believe to have survived whatever exchange and think they have a shot at getting from where they are to where their family is. If there is decent unit integrity at the platoon/company level and then higher, this ought to be manageable. Small broken groups are likely to be the biggest issues as they may descend in to banditry/warlordism.

There are only going to be so many ICBMs/SLBMs ready to launch for the USSR at any moment. Some targets may need to be serviced by several to achieve the results. A training base can't hurt you right now, and even longer term is a minimal threat, therefore you won't waste a missile on one of these maybe a bomber may have this on their target list or it may be an alternate target for a bomber. In 1984 the USSR had roughly 1,400 land based intercontinental missiles. These have a total of roughly 6,000 warheads with ~300 missiles have 10 MIRVs and ~350 having 6 MIRVs. There are roughly 60 SSBNs of all sorts with a total of ~920 missiles some of which have 3-5 MIRVs - some of these can operate effectively from "bastions" close to the USSR, others require deployment in to the Atlantic. A small percentage of the land based missiles are mobile.

Some land based missiles, especially the mobile ones, would be held back for second strikes for targets that were not serviced in the first strike and also as power chips after the war. Likewise for some of the SLBMs. So now the math starts. Assume there are 8,000 warheads than can be delivered by missiles. Assume between mobile ICBMs and SLBMs held back you now have a theoretical max of 6,000 warheads deliverable by missiles. Starting with the SSBNs, no matter how hard the Soviets (or the Americans) try some of them will be in port if it hits the fan, and at some point the SSBNs will be targeted by the other side even if left alone while things are conventional and atoms are not on the horizon. The US and UK have very capable ASW forces, so there will be Soviet losses among deployed boomers. For the silo based missiles, no matter what a certain percentage are simply not going to be ready to go when the button is pushed. If the launch is delayed for some reason, deliberate or just circumstances, the missile may die in its silo. For all missiles a certain number will malfunction so that they don't reach the USA, a certain number of MIRVs will malfunction and perhaps not separate from the bus. Some of the warheads will just go splat, and not explode and if some of the conventional explosives in the device do go off simply spread a relatively small area of plutonium goodness. So the question is how many warheads actually reach the USA and land reasonably close to their targets (remember CEP says 50% of the missiles hit in that circle, the other 50% from 1 cm outside the circle to anywhere on the planet).

Given the estimates of max readiness for the sub force and the missile force, failure rates for the various missiles, and how many would be held for second strike or later you can estimate the max number of warheads that might hit the USA. Of course some will be used against Canada, some against various US bases outside CONUS etc. It won't be a small number but it will be substantially less than the theoretical max of 8,000 if all fired at the US/US owned targets. Training bases like the Marine boot camp in San Diego as well as the Navy boot camp there will go, simply because San Diego is going to be hit by multiple warheads and they will go as "bonus". Will Parris Island go? Probably not by missile, no active forces there. Will the Navy boot camp at Great Lakes go - it may get caught in stuff hitting Chicago, but it is potentially far enough away to survive depending on impact points. There are many other basic training bases and others that might get lucky and be low down on the list. Don't forget targets due to be serviced by missiles that fail, or on the list for SSBNs that are sunk before they fire will escape unless and until the USSR knows they were missed, wants to kill them, and has the capability to do so. Any target slated for only one missile warhead, be it a military installation or a city can be the beneficiary of missile failure, sub sinking or just poor guidance.

Any target not hit by a missile in the initial salvo is probably safe from missile attack for some time and possibly permanently. If they are going to be hit by a bomber, this means the targets have several hours before they hit the vulnerable zone. Assuming they have plans to evacuate some or most of their assets somewhere not likely to be on a target list (and one hopes these plans would be made) once the nuclear exchange starts they have more than enough to to bug out.

 

[Farmer12]

sloreck- True but some trainees will be at bases like Fort Hood, Bragg,Polk and other major bases that would be likely targets. Your right about the rally points and the need to plan ahead. Warlordism may a bigger problem all to many people watch Mad Max and a lot of them would probably go out and try to be a marauder.

Your right about what will happen with the warheads. The ICBM's will launched en masse, with various countries as targets. So while the US will get the largest portion of ICBM's it will not get hit with everything. While SLBM's will have varied missions. The Delta and Typhoon class subs will be operating Barent and Kara Seas and could be held in reserve for a second strike. While the Yankee class will be positioned forward so it will be more of a use it or lose it kind of situation. But even then not all the SLBM's will be targets at the United States. Any idea that the US will catch all the missiles is not realistic. Add on the failure rate of the missiles for all reasons the MIRV systems not working and the warhead failure rate and then any accuracy problems. Now this will go both ways the missiles used by the US at the Soviet Union will also have similar problems. Basically it all depends on the failure rate of each nations missile and warheads. In general most of what i have read indicates that the Soviet Union will have the higher over all failure rate. What percentage is open to interpretation. Although i firmly believe the old missile systems will have the higher failure rate.

Then you have the CEP now while the warhead misses the target but most will still hit inside the United States so while the target survives. You will still have a cloud of radiation from the exploding warhead. The chances of targets being hit during a second strike is still there the SLBM's not used during the first strike can be used over a period of time or a massive second strike it all depends on how heavily damaged the Soviet Unions command structure is.

 

[ferdi254]

Sloreck there is a crisis now going on for a couple of weeks. Unless one assumes that either side is full of vodka/whisky both sides will not only have brought up the conventional armies to max power (farmer all those old tanks spent decades in storage without real checks) but also the nuclear forces.

But even with „only“ 5k warheads hitting the USA that is one per 48k inhabitants. There won’t be much left to restart.

Farmer what should the red missiles attack apart from the NATO and maybe SEATO states? 20 warheads each finish Australia and New Zealand 50 are enough to get rid of Japan (no need for ILBM there anyway)

 

[Farmer12]

ferdi254-China for one and she will catch hell for sure no way the Soviet Union would allow China to survive intact. The Russian ancestral memories about invasions from the East and the various wars fought with the Muslims states. Also leaving Iran intact would be a nonstarter. Since they have only so many IRBM's so ICBM's will be used. Also Canada, Israel, various Arab states that are allied with the United States. Why no hit Mexico with in crisis it would only cause more problems for the Americans. That will eat up missiles and warheads. As for the tanks the Soviet Union has had some time to bring those tanks up to operational status. The T-34/85's and T-54/55's are some of the easiest tanks in the world to maintain and to bring to operational stations. Remember you can drive that tank around the block and fire the cannon and machine guns to see if they work and then fixed whats broken. You cannot do that with an ICBM or SLBM. With them you find out the hard way during or after launch.

 

[ferdi254]

Farmer as we do have no plans from the USSR what their target list was of course you are free to speculate but imo you and Sloreck go a bit too much along lines used in the 80s:

The big evil empire of the reds that will do all evil things (attack neutrals, randomly nuke states, start a war of aggression) which has a huge conventional advantage over the NATO while the USA will not get mauled as bad as expected due to missiles and warheads not working.

Exactly that kind of thinking nearly got us into a war.

For the conventional troops. First you need the tanks to get moving (spare parts??? trained people) then you need to move them to the GDR (two train lines) and then you are short of everything for those troops from AA assets to field kitchens. All those problems plus all the well known problems of the forces in the GDR are waved away while at the same time the absolute backbone and pride of the red army suddenly has huge problems and gets partly wasted on tertiary targets.

Well of course not that many as Israel is but two warheads and Canada maybe 80. Hitting Mexico to cause problems in the USA instead of firing directly at targets in the USA sorry can you explain this a bit more in detail?

It was called MAD because only the knowledge that any attack on the other side would destroy your own country made sure you did not think about such an attack which again assured the other side that they needed no preemptive attack. That was why the star wars project of the USA was so dangerous. Tell the USSR that in 10 years their missiles will be useless... and then do expect that they will do nothing about it?

 

[Farmer12]

ferdi254- You the one running from the truth, the Soviet Union was a dictatorship that ran a brutal empire for ever atrocity committed by the West and they did happen and note I am being truthful. The Soviet Union committed a hundred. They ran a brutal Gulag system of work camps that kept dissidents in prisons. But the United States did not. As for my comments on the reliability on the Soviet Missile force there are also comments that the United States had similar problems only somewhat less severe.

As for the movement of troops and equipment they have had roughly forty days to move their troops to East Germany. The information i have states that it take eighty trains to move a division and two main railroads and a third going through Prague even allowing for the movement of troops to Czechoslovakia for combat operations at some point this route could be used to move troops and supplies to Germany. Also remember that the mobilization only Division are both understrength and under equipped so it will take few trains to move those division. The movement of forces is not that restrictive. Also some unit can be moved by secondary routes looking at railroad lines inside the United State in consideration for post strike operations.


I noticed that there were a number of secondary routes that would allow the movement of supplies and personnel around the United States avoiding cities that had been probably hit. While in Europe which has a much more complex railroad system than the United States. So i imagine that secondary routes could be used to move additional troops and equipment into Germany and roads could be used to.

I noticed you used the term secondary targets for the countries i mentioned. China is not a secondary target and it sits right on the border of the Soviet Union with a very large army. It will get hit by a large number of missiles to make sure it cannot attack the Soviet Union while it is still recovering from Americas first strike. Also Mexico has oil supplies and some industry that can produce material for sales to the United States. That would be a good enough reason to hit Mexico.

 

[Farmer12]

11/10 Aug Moscow Interregnum The Politburo again gathers to talk about who is to become the next General Secretary. For Gorbachev what was really frustrating was that he could not get the centrist members of the Politburo to commit to his taking control. The problem was that they really did not want to make the necessary cuts and the Hardliners were offering a way out of the problem. But doing what the Hardliners would almost assure an all-out nuclear war with the Americans. But the undecided members of the Politburo seemed to be more afraid of the people of the Soviet Union. Than they were afraid of the possibility of a nuclear war.

Romanov was so close to being the next General Secretary he could taste it. He needed to bring the undecided members of the Politburo to his side. But they were not yet convinced his approach was the best option. What he needed to do was to make it clear that the military specifically the Soviet Army and the KGB were both on his side. That would show the undecided that two of the three bases of power were under his control. That left only the party on the outside. Something that the party leadership would want to avoid at all costs.

He decided that he needed both the Soviet Army and the KGB give briefings on what the difficulties would be for both approaches. He knew that the military would agree with his plan and had panned Gorbachev plan. While the KGB were not too sure about going to war, they were definitely opposed to dismantling the military. While at the same time cutting back on spending on the civilians at the same time. Romanov also suspected that they were afraid that they would be in for some cutting to. To the Leadership of the KGB that was a recipe for disaster. The problem it was to late to arrange for the briefings now but during the meeting he would push for briefings from both the Soviet Army and the KGB about the two plans.

He knew that both organizations had put together briefing papers on both plans but he had held off on pushing for the briefings. He was not entirely sure that the KGB’s briefing would back his plan over Gorbachev’s plan. But based on comments made by Chebrikov he was not fairly confident that the briefing would come down on his side. Watch the debate going in circles he decided it was time to move everyone on all sides were getting tired of the situation. The crisis demanded a leader and time was just not there.
Germany The last units of the 47th division have arrived, the aircraft used in that movement will be used to moving additional support units to Germany. The movement of the British Army 5th division had been complete and the first elements of the 6th Division began to move.

Gersfeld Germany Chuck was prepping for another round of training of the ground to the rear of the battalion’s companies. The full company with its tank platoon was going to do a bit of training at night. He wanted to see just how long it took to move a full company into various positions while moving in the dark. Training did have risks but he needed to be sure that when it was time to move the company could carry out its mission at anytime day or night. He also wanted to reminded his company on what it was like to operate short of sleep. He knew If war broke out they would be operating with little or no sleep for several days at a time.

Since the Sikh terrorist shot Gromyko and Indira Ghandi, he was pretty sure that war was far more likely than peace. All of the company commanders were sending their men out on night patrols and there was a flurry of rechecking the locations for the mine field when the time came. Yesterday the company commander of the local Territorial Army company had walked around village of Gersfeld. The word was that the Territorials were going to put at least a company troops from the Territorial Army in the town in an effort to hold it. The idea of the Territorial Army company being located in front of the battalion could be either help or hinderance. The help part was that the company would make for a strong outpost. One that could break up at least the first attack from the Warsaw Pact troops. Also, since the troops were from the area they could hopefully be counted on putting up a hard fight to protect the town.

The hinderance was first language difficulties, the 1/39th was short of German speaking troops and who knew how many people in the German Territorial company spoke English. That would make coordinating the defense with the Territorial troops more difficult. What was quietly discussed was that the leadership of the Battalion where not too sure that the Territorial troops would be up to a standup fight with the Soviet Union. That was the biggest concern.

But in Capt. Peterson’s opinion the biggest real hinderance to the battalion’s success came driving by, Lt. Col. Rodney. He was possibly the worst possible commander to lead the battalion in combat. The word that Rodney was sleeping with a local German woman. That was distracting him from what was supposed to be his mission of preparing the battalion for war. Then upon reflection it did allow the battalion XO and the S-3 to have a pretty free reign over the battalion. Thinking the whole situation through it meant a pair of combat veterans were making most of the decisions for the battalion. That was a good thing.

Brussel The Senior German General called General Rogers letting know that Kohl had been consulted only this morning. It had been the sheer numbers of WARSAW Pact forces gathering in the Northern Plains of Germany he been the final selling point. With the Germans on board now it was time to talk to the British and he invited the Germans over to be part of the discussion with the British. He called the British and rather than looking to eager for a meeting something that would get the British to wondering what was going on.

 

[sloreck]

What happens after a nuclear war is quite important to the parties involved in it. The folks in the USSR knew that after any nuclear exchange (partial or full) they would be significantly weakened. Therefore having a reserve of deliverable nuclear weapons for the post war period would be important hence SSBNs, mobile missiles, some aircraft/gravity bombs stashed in hopefully safe locations would be important. In a post exchange world, it would be necessary for the USSR to be able to extract food and resources from the relatively undamaged parts of the world, and since the ruble was not going to be worth anything, using the nuclear club to extract said goods would be essential. Obviously hitting allies of the USA/NATO with nuclear strikes is sensible, but various neutrals would need to be smacked down as well. Neutrals with the capability to become conventional regional powers or even have the potential to develop nukes in a relatively short time frame would need to be knocked down so as not to be able to be a hindrance to Soviet recovery and dominance. Neutrals close to the USSR like Sweden and Finland might get one or two nukes to their capitals and perhaps one or two other locations just to ensure they were unable to be a local threat. Trashing China is obvious, big, next door, and in 1984 they have nukes - so hitting known Chinese nuclear facilities, Beijing, and some other important cities/military targets is a given, and I expect the USA may toss a few at least at nuclear sites.

In some cases nukes would be delivered by ICBMs/SLBMs, some by shorter range missiles, some by aircraft. With the exception of China, where hitting nuke facilities right away as well as Beijing will be important, others won't necessarily be hit in the first flush. Of course Sweden and Finland are in range of short range missiles, which are more plentiful than ICBMs.

In the postwar world, if a region is reluctant to send "stuff" to the USSR, for free of course, seeing one of the capital cities vanish in a 2-3MT flash will convince the others.

All of the above is consistent with known Soviet nuclear doctrine. Other than the USA tossing something at China in a nuclear exchange, trashing neutrals was not likely.

 

[ferdi254]

Sloreck could you please give a source for that known nuclear doctrine?

Just to get that one off so you and Farmer do not have to repeat it again: The USSR was a tyrannical state which gave a shit about human rights and commited severe crimes against its own population. No need to sell that to me.

But this was domestic policy here we are talking foreign.

And here we are talking not only about invading neutral countries but as well nuking them and other than The Red evil empire will do anything evil we think it will... I may be a bit stupid but what are the sources to assume it will?

It was not the USSR that dropped a couple million tons of bombs unto two neutral countries in the cold war.

AFAIK it was not the USSR that had a plan that even went so far as to drop nuclear warheads into forests to set them on fire to deny the enemy even the use of those.

 

[sloreck]

@ferdi254 : Going off memories of old classified stuff. In the case of places like India, China, and Israel which have nukes in 1984 the USSR is absolutely going to want to hit them - if they have a nuclear monopoly in the postwar world they can get what they need to rebuild.

 

[ferdi254]

Sloreck Farmer has the USSR plan to deliberately not only attack a couple neutral countries but also nuke them.

India only had a handful of nuclear warheads at the time. So how many people would get killed to get those?

That would make the people responsible for it the greatest mass murderes in history by killing millions even hundred of millions of civilians in neutral countries.

Mexico might sell something useful to the USA? Just nuke them so they don’t. Kills a couple million people? Never mind as long as it hurts the USA it‘s perfectly ok for us. Do you really think the leadership of the USSR was made up of casual mass murderers?

 

[ferdi254]

Oh and a sidenote: Nuking countries which have military ties with the USA in the middle east would mean to nuke Bagdad.