Sloped Panzer IV armor?
- Thread starter Shtudmuffin
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They would shill need a new tank. The T34 and the Sherman had way more development potential for a PzIV based version to match, even if the Sherman was underdeveloped.
Better crews, better leadership, experience. Plus upgrades with which Pz IV reached its full potential (long 75mm gun, bolt on armor, armored skirts)
Well better tactics, better training, better gun. How do you explain continued use of Sherman after war for example by IDF or T-34/85 by other users? BTW Syria used Pz IV against Israel and it was not so successfull.
Even the panzer IV ewas used for some time after 1945 
The Panzer IV was first designed in the mid-late 30s and in production from 1938. it started with around 17 tons and the latter H models were around 26 tons - Thats a 50% increase - the design reched its full potential.
Some other designs were related (Jagdpanzer Version StuG version Assault gun version - Aka Brummbär, bridgelayer ammunition carrier)
After 1944 the Pz IV could not be developed further, so it was abandoned (Germany defeated helps also?)
The T34 had exactly 2 advantages - sloped armor and easy assemble
But the T34 never had the potentioal to be developed further - you need a different design for that.
The Sherman was at least as versatile as the Pz IV - look at the many versions (including a ROCKET tank version!)
All three tanks were the workhorses of their countries - famous became only the US and SU ones - becuse the GErmans thought they needed racehorses to win the war - IMHO this was one of the big mistakes which led to germanys defeat - producing more simpler tanks should have been sufficient.
A design pairing the simplicity (and sloped armor) of the T34 with the 75L48 german gun and German tank doctrine (including radio) would have done much for Germanys war effort. Thus I am back with the original question PZ IV with sloped armor - yes, but it would have been a different design. A non Panther PAnzer V !
The Panzer IV was first designed in the mid-late 30s and in production from 1938. it started with around 17 tons and the latter H models were around 26 tons - Thats a 50% increase - the design reched its full potential.
Some other designs were related (Jagdpanzer Version StuG version Assault gun version - Aka Brummbär, bridgelayer ammunition carrier)
After 1944 the Pz IV could not be developed further, so it was abandoned (Germany defeated helps also?)
The T34 had exactly 2 advantages - sloped armor and easy assemble
But the T34 never had the potentioal to be developed further - you need a different design for that.
The Sherman was at least as versatile as the Pz IV - look at the many versions (including a ROCKET tank version!)
All three tanks were the workhorses of their countries - famous became only the US and SU ones - becuse the GErmans thought they needed racehorses to win the war - IMHO this was one of the big mistakes which led to germanys defeat - producing more simpler tanks should have been sufficient.
A design pairing the simplicity (and sloped armor) of the T34 with the 75L48 german gun and German tank doctrine (including radio) would have done much for Germanys war effort. Thus I am back with the original question PZ IV with sloped armor - yes, but it would have been a different design. A non Panther PAnzer V !
Even the panzer IV ewas used for some time after 1945
The Panzer IV was first designed in the mid-late 30s and in production from 1938. it started with around 17 tons and the latter H models were around 26 tons - Thats a 50% increase - the design reched its full potential.
Some other designs were related (Jagdpanzer Version StuG version Assault gun version - Aka Brummbär, bridgelayer ammunition carrier)
After 1944 the Pz IV could not be developed further, so it was abandoned (Germany defeated helps also?)
The T34 had exactly 2 advantages - sloped armor and easy assemble
But the T34 never had the potentioal to be developed further - you need a different design for that.
The Sherman was at least as versatile as the Pz IV - look at the many versions (including a ROCKET tank version!)
All three tanks were the workhorses of their countries - famous became only the US and SU ones - becuse the GErmans thought they needed racehorses to win the war - IMHO this was one of the big mistakes which led to germanys defeat - producing more simpler tanks should have been sufficient.
A design pairing the simplicity (and sloped armor) of the T34 with the 75L48 german gun and German tank doctrine (including radio) would have done much for Germanys war effort. Thus I am back with the original question PZ IV with sloped armor - yes, but it would have been a different design. A non Panther PAnzer V !
1. The T34 without development potencial? There's the T34/85. How much more development did they need?
2. The tank you're asking for was the VK30.02DB and the Germans didn't wanted it. IMO, their mistake. Plesae note that the production version was going to get a torsion bar suspension, not the interleved suspension on the drawing bellow
I wonder if there was any chance that this could have been produced instead of the Panther (and possibly the Tiger I and II)?
So a bit more aggressive persuasion by German generals might have led to its production?
It wasn't Hitler. He actually preferred the DB design and insisted on an initial order of 200 provided they had 75/70 rather then the 75/48 on the initial design. The thecnocrats on the Waffenprufamt 6 comitee choose the MAN design and later in 42 rescinded the DB order after having tipped of MAN to rush their prototype. Along the way they required ticker armour, and the big cat got overweight and unreliable. Everything in Germany got blamed on Hitler, but sometimes blade started lower down.
Guderian wanted to build a direct copy of the T34. He would have chosen the DB design, but he had been fired after Moscow and was benched for the whole of 42...
Note that I wrote T34 - this INCLUDES the T-34/85 , but you could argur that the SU-family was developed from the T-34, so a limited Evolution happened.
But honestly - The T-34 (T-43 if you want
) was so sucessful in its BASE version - it did not need evolution...sharlin
Banned
I'm thinking when he was Director General for the armoured forces in the build up to Kursk 'cause the Panther was produced in that build up period with them being rushed to the front with more bugs than a nest of termites (bursting into flames, clutches exploding if they encountered hills and the like being the biggest problems). If he'd been able to I reckon he would have pushed for the DB to be produced.
The critical decision making period was Spring 1942. Once they had settled on the MAN design going back would have caused unacceptable delays.
That would, of course, explain the numerous improvements it got over its life, like new air filters, a new gearbox, a new gun, an new turret ring, several new turrets, etc. This isn't to say that it wasn't a good tank, it was, but the initial versions had a serious lack of crew comforts, few radios, and were not hugely reliable, a fact which was not helped by the fact that units often didn't have sufficient repair equipment.Note that I wrote T34 - this INCLUDES the T-34/85 , but you could argur that the SU-family was developed from the T-34, so a limited Evolution happened.
But honestly - The T-34 (T-43 if you want
sharlin
Banned
Oh when they first came out of course there was issues, the 2 man turret being the most obvious one but the hull had a lot of room to be changed and altered. Its turret got bigger, they added things like the commanders cupola, improved the gun (not counting the 85mm, there was also a very limited run of 57mm gun armed T-34s nicknamed 'exterminators' who were meant to be used as turreted Tank destroyers). The base hull was good, not great, and when improved upon through hard and painful won experience the tank got better.
Yes the T-34 was poorly made and was basically built as a disposable machine but it was a darn good tank for all its failings.
Yes the T-34 was poorly made and was basically built as a disposable machine but it was a darn good tank for all its failings.
All those faults were going to be corrected with the T34M, with new suspension, three man turret, sorted out drive train (same engine, mounted diferently and with a new gear box with reduction gear giving 8+2 rather than 4+1 gear. Given the state of the world in 1940, the Soveis build the interim T34 M1940 and follow on T34M1941 in large numbers, since they were needed in the units. When the Germans invaded, it was decided that it was better no to complicate production with a transition for a new design.
I started a thread on the subject a while back.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=243534
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