Slavic Northern Italy

I had such an idea actually, where de facto most of Northern Italy became a giant Slovenia after a massive invasion/migration shortly before the year 600 of a mixed army of Slavs, Lombards, Saxons, Avars, in such damage and wreaking such irreparable damage as to de-Latinize most of the Po Valley no later than the Xth century. The more compact nation then managed to hold onto Carniola and Carantania. West of the Biella-Asti line French and Occitan are spoken. Liguria with Genoa remains Romance-speaking and free, apart limited periods of Slavic suzerainty. This Slavic nation (I thought about calling it something like Recia, from "rivers") would ultimtely fail to have access to the Thyrrenean Sea, having instead an Adriatic outlet, long blocked by Venice (obstinate Romance remain, only in Early modern times eventually Slavicized and absorbed), and anyway of moderate importance in a mostly land-interested country.
Its borderd would go from Monte Rosa in the Northwest down along the current borders of the provinces of Biella and Turin, include parts of that of Asti, then go along a line approxinmately from nizza Monferrato to Tortona, cross the Oltrepo hills up to little south of Bobbio (Mount Penice as border outpost), then reaching the Appenine watershed around Cisa pass and remaining there up to the Metauro river, after that going to the Adriatic. In the Alps, the country would include Canton Ticino, but not Valtellina, part of a pugnacious Ladin-speaking Alpine nation comprising also eastern Switzerland from Glarus and St.Gallen, Trentino, all of Tyrol and the Dolomites; the borders of the Salvic state would then include all of Carinthia and most of Styria, plus OTL Slovenia almost entirely, and the Adriatic coast up to and comprising Fiume/Rijeka and the Kvarner archipelago.
 
I had such an idea actually, where de facto most of Northern Italy became a giant Slovenia after a massive invasion/migration shortly before the year 600 of a mixed army of Slavs, Lombards, Saxons, Avars, in such damage and wreaking such irreparable damage as to de-Latinize most of the Po Valley no later than the Xth century. The more compact nation then managed to hold onto Carniola and Carantania. West of the Biella-Asti line French and Occitan are spoken. Liguria with Genoa remains Romance-speaking and free, apart limited periods of Slavic suzerainty. This Slavic nation (I thought about calling it something like Recia, from "rivers") would ultimtely fail to have access to the Thyrrenean Sea, having instead an Adriatic outlet, long blocked by Venice (obstinate Romance remain, only in Early modern times eventually Slavicized and absorbed), and anyway of moderate importance in a mostly land-interested country.
Its borderd would go from Monte Rosa in the Northwest down along the current borders of the provinces of Biella and Turin, include parts of that of Asti, then go along a line approxinmately from nizza Monferrato to Tortona, cross the Oltrepo hills up to little south of Bobbio (Mount Penice as border outpost), then reaching the Appenine watershed around Cisa pass and remaining there up to the Metauro river, after that going to the Adriatic. In the Alps, the country would include Canton Ticino, but not Valtellina, part of a pugnacious Ladin-speaking Alpine nation comprising also eastern Switzerland from Glarus and St.Gallen, Trentino, all of Tyrol and the Dolomites; the borders of the Salvic state would then include all of Carinthia and most of Styria, plus OTL Slovenia almost entirely, and the Adriatic coast up to and comprising Fiume/Rijeka and the Kvarner archipelago.

Interesting idea, but a question. How is Venice blocking it?
 

scholar

Banned
How are the Byzantines stronger without Slavic manpower to resettle Anatolia?
Oh, wrong time period.

I was thinking of the decline of Byzantine power in the Balkans, which was a result primarily of nomadic slavic peoples invading northern frontier regions. Avars, Bulgarians, Serbians, etc.
 
Oh, wrong time period.

I was thinking of the decline of Byzantine power in the Balkans, which was a result primarily of nomadic slavic peoples invading northern frontier regions. Avars, Bulgarians, Serbians, etc.

True, but that was probably a result of it being Not the Most Important Area and vulnerable to whoever moved in.
 
Well in my Tengri TL I did have increased pressure by the Bulgars/Magyars/Avars/Turkics forcing the southern Slavs to move into Bavaria and Lombardy.
 

scholar

Banned
True, but that was probably a result of it being Not the Most Important Area and vulnerable to whoever moved in.
It would rapidly become the most important area even though Anatolia was certainly more strategically valuable later on.
 
It would rapidly become the most important area even though Anatolia was certainly more strategically valuable later on.

Strategically and otherwise.

The Byzantines did not need the Balkans nearly as much as they need Anatolia's resources.
 

scholar

Banned
Strategically and otherwise.

The Byzantines did not need the Balkans nearly as much as they need Anatolia's resources.
I disagree.

Balkan manpower were infinitely more helpful in beating back the Turks, I doubt the Byzantines would have lasted nearly as long as they did without significant Balkan territories. Further, it is when they lost most of their Balkan possessions (and add into the Latin Empire and semi-civil war) that they were no longer able to effectively control Anatolia.
 
I disagree.

Balkan manpower were infinitely more helpful in beating back the Turks, I doubt the Byzantines would have lasted nearly as long as they did without significant Balkan territories. Further, it is when they lost most of their Balkan possessions (and add into the Latin Empire and semi-civil war) that they were no longer able to effectively control Anatolia.

The Byzantines didn't have the resources of Anatolia when fighting the Turks. What else do they have besides the coast and the Balkans to deal with them?

And by the point you're referring to as the "further...", that meant "they didn't have very much anywhere".
 

scholar

Banned
The Byzantines didn't have the resources of Anatolia when fighting the Turks.

And by the point you're referring to, that meant "they didn't have very much anywhere".
They would have the entirety of the Balkan Peninsula without nomadic slavs, nobody else could take them without massive butterflies. The kind of butterfly that flaps its wings in Shang Hai and an earthquake destroys New York City in a few hours.

And when they were fighting the Turks they most certainly had Anatolia and most of Anatolia after the initial lasting incursion. (GoTurks, Seljuks, Sultanate of Rome)
 
They would have the entirety of the Balkan Peninsula without nomadic slavs, nobody else could take them without massive butterflies. The kind of butterfly that flaps its wings in Shang Hai and an earthquake destroys New York City in a few hours.

Or one of the other groups in the area or to be in the area moving in.

Not a massive butterfly at all.
And when they were fighting the Turks they most certainly had Anatolia and most of Anatolia after the initial lasting incursion.
As for fighting the Turks:

http://rbedrosian.com/Maps/shpha66_67.htm
http://rbedrosian.com/Maps/shpha68.htm
http://rbedrosian.com/Maps/sh26_70.htm

You were saying?

The eastern stuff before 1071 is against the Arabs, not the Turks, as a serious foe. And 1071 and after sees Anatolia swept away until the Comnenoi begin to claw it back.
 

scholar

Banned
The Slavs really were the only group in the area. Granted, slavs is a vastly generic term.

Oh, I was wrong. Though one could continue to make the argument that by 1190 the Byzantines were using Anatolian resources to combat the Turks.
 
The Slavs really were the only group in the area. Granted, slavs is a vastly generic term.

True.

Oh, I was wrong. Though one could continue to make the argument that by 1190 the Byzantines were using Anatolian resources to combat the Turks.

Yes, but they relied on Balkan resources in absence of having all of Anatolia, rather than because of a lack of importance of the latter.
 
Was there anything left on Anatolia, natives, who could have fended off the turks for a moment, even with imperial help? native 'militias'?
 
Was there anything left on Anatolia, natives, who could have fended off the turks for a moment, even with imperial help? native 'militias'?

Sweep away the empire and you sweep away what forces there were to do so, such as the thematic troops (the only real militia type force).
 
I assume with the Slavs in North Italy the Germans are forced out of the peninsula altogether. What's the butterfly effects from there?
 
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