Alarico Rodríguez
Banned
What could be some Slavic Great Powers that aren't either Russia or Poland?
Slavic Great Powers other than Russia and Poland
- Thread starter Alarico Rodríguez
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As Mr_Fanboy said, Serbia and Bulgaria. If either can take Constantinople and hold it, that would certainly help boost Great Power status.
Of course, the Serbs or Bulgarians would have to maintain their Slavic culture and not assimilate into Roman-Hellenic culture, though.
Of course, the Serbs or Bulgarians would have to maintain their Slavic culture and not assimilate into Roman-Hellenic culture, though.
It would probably help if one of the two countries conquers (or inherits through dynastic maneuvering) the other in addition to Constantinople, Greece, and some or all of Anatolia. That way, South Slavs would collectively outnumber the Greeks, Turks, Armenians, and any other ethnic groups in the resultant empire.
Left field option: the Early Slavs expand not as bands of disparate tribes, but as a single military force inspired by the fervor of a new religion inspired by a Slavic counterpart to Muhammad. Much of Western Eurasia is conquered by this pan-Slavic empire, though it will almost certainly collapse sooner or later.
Alarico Rodríguez
Banned
Well, successor states could still become great powers. It's hard to imagine that kind of religion though. Islam arose from the codified religions of the Middle East and the Indian continent. It took several centuries of written religious thought for something like Mazdaism and Yahwism to emerge and then over half a millennium for a full fledged Zoroastrianism, Judaism and Christianity to finally come out, the three religions without which there most likely wouldn't be an Islam. Slavs, on the other hand, are rather isolated from written cultures, so they always kept their oral religion which was even more disparate than that of Germanics, which has a more identifiable and unified pantheon than the Slavs ever had.
Bulgaria, Bohemia, Yugoslavia (although even since its founding it was always much more of a middle/regional power, but it was still a "great power" in the sense of geopolitics as they were the SFR Yugoslavia was one of the founding members of the Non-Aligned Movement), the Kingdom of Bohemia, and the Kingdom of Serbia.
There were several proposals for a Balkan Federation in the 19th and 20th centuries:
en.m.wikipedia.org
While such an entity would have included non-Slavic peoples such as Albanians, Greeks, and Romanians, in practice it probably would have functioned as a Greater Yugoslavia.
In any event, I always thought that a scenario that included a Balkan Federation whose Greek component had achieved full Megali Idea borders would be interesting.
Balkan Federation - Wikipedia
While such an entity would have included non-Slavic peoples such as Albanians, Greeks, and Romanians, in practice it probably would have functioned as a Greater Yugoslavia.
In any event, I always thought that a scenario that included a Balkan Federation whose Greek component had achieved full Megali Idea borders would be interesting.
I wonder, could slavs migrate into Anatolia the same way the Galatians of old did?
One would argue that Bulgaria in the 10th Century was already a great power- they ran riot in the Balkans under Symeon I
Late Medieval Serbia could become a great power without losing to the Ottomans. Or a Great Moravia that isn't destroyed by the Magyar Invasions
If these early Slavs could unite and create some kind of a state then you have a truly Great Power that had nothing to do with then nonexistent Russians or Poles.
Lithuania! Now you will object that Lithuania s a Baltic, not Slavic nation. I reply: that is true today, but the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in the 15th century had more East Slavs (what would today be called Ukrainians and Belarusians) than it did ethnic Lithuanians and most of its territory was in what is now Ukraine or Belarus (or parts of Russia that have been claimed by Belarusian nationalists):
Moreover, the formal name of the state was the "Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia." And the "Rus" language was the official language of the Grand Duchy--the Statutes of Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Lithuania for example being written in it--until Polonization led to it being superseded by Polish and Latin.
Of course for the Grand Duchy of Lithuania to survive, it has to resist being absorbed by either Poland or the Grand Duchy of Moscow. But if it somehow manages to do so, there could be two East Slavic states--to use their Latin names, we could call the western one Ruthenia and the eastern one Muscovy.
There are even alternative ways to get a Ruthenian or West Rus' or Ukrainian-Belorussian state created. For example as a Swedish vassal state if the Swedes had won the Great Northern War. Or there was Oginksi's project to get the Tsar to restore (a mostly Belarusian and Ukrainian) Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which I discuss at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...reestablishes-lithuania.479966/#post-19907587
Moreover, the formal name of the state was the "Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia." And the "Rus" language was the official language of the Grand Duchy--the Statutes of Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Lithuania for example being written in it--until Polonization led to it being superseded by Polish and Latin.
Of course for the Grand Duchy of Lithuania to survive, it has to resist being absorbed by either Poland or the Grand Duchy of Moscow. But if it somehow manages to do so, there could be two East Slavic states--to use their Latin names, we could call the western one Ruthenia and the eastern one Muscovy.
There are even alternative ways to get a Ruthenian or West Rus' or Ukrainian-Belorussian state created. For example as a Swedish vassal state if the Swedes had won the Great Northern War. Or there was Oginksi's project to get the Tsar to restore (a mostly Belarusian and Ukrainian) Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which I discuss at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...reestablishes-lithuania.479966/#post-19907587
Actually, short of the religion and succession issues and one lost battle the Grand Duchy had a very good chance to became a Slavic superstate. Witold was in possession of Belorussia, Ukraine, Smolensk area, was acknowledged as “protector” of Novgorod and .... surprise, surprise, of the Grand Princedom of Moscow. He was planning to support an overthrown Khan of the GH, Totkhamish, on a condition that after being restored the Khan would recognize him as an overlord and will pass to him a direct overlordship over the Russian princedoms. The schema failed after defeat at Vorskla but the battle could be won or Yesugei could be persuaded to change sides or could die before the battle, etc.Lithuania! Now you will object that Lithuania s a Baltic, not Slavic nation. I reply: that is true today, but the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in the 15th century had more East Slavs (what would today be called Ukrainians and Belarusians) than it did ethnic Lithuanians and most of its territory was in what is now Ukraine or Belarus (or parts of Russia that have been claimed by Belarusian nationalists):
Moreover, the formal name of the state was the "Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Rus and Samogitia." And the "Rus" language was the official language of the Grand Duchy--the Statutes of Lithuania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutes_of_Lithuania for example being written in it--until Polonization led to it being superseded by Polish and Latin.
Of course for the Grand Duchy of Lithuania to survive, it has to resist being absorbed by either Poland or the Grand Duchy of Moscow. But if it somehow manages to do so, there could be two East Slavic states--to use their Latin names, we could call the western one Ruthenia and the eastern one Muscovy.
There are even alternative ways to get a Ruthenian or West Rus' or Ukrainian-Belorussian state created. For example as a Swedish vassal state if the Swedes had won the Great Northern War. Or there was Oginksi's project to get the Tsar to restore (a mostly Belarusian and Ukrainian) Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which I discuss at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...reestablishes-lithuania.479966/#post-19907587
By that time probably more than a half of the Duchy’s subjects had been Orthodox and “Russian” (probably old Belorussian) was used in the official documents (AFAIK, there was no written Lithuanian at that time). Witold’s daughter was married to the Grand Prince Vasily I. AFAIK, the Catholicism by that time did not yet get the solid roots in the Duchy and the Orthodox followers were more numerous and better established.
In other words, there was a very good chance that consolidation of the Russian lands would happen around Lithuania (the Grand Duchy had more of them than Moscow) with the Lithuanians becoming a minority. However, one of the prerequisites would be sticking to the Orthodox Creed at least for the rulers.