Slavic France

Then what do youthink will happen if rome breaks apart in 100 AD. ho will be next superpower ? will europe stay tribal, will they enter a medieval phase ? will there only be small tribal duchies ? or will rome somehow rise again ?

How does it break apart, why, etc, etc.
 
breaks apart because of various reasons, unhappines withhin the popultion with their emperor, which is a fictional emperor however. Diomitian doesnt get assassinated. he wasnt a very popular emperor, and also the people arent really happy. There are revolts in Gaul roughly at the same time, dacia also decides to attack the roman provinces pannonia. due to bad leadership, ( a dictator rises) they have to give up some provinces, which the dacians take. The Gauls etablish a breakaway realm. finally the population and military revolts and a civil war ravages italy. Vairous barbarian tribes, attack the crumbling roman empire and take whats theirs. Gaul manages to conquer the southern french areas aswell as Iberia. Germanic tribes settle in Austria. and northern italy. The Dacians conquer the balkan areas.
Southern italy survives, however gets under greek control. the greek language is starting to be quite popular. however not as important as latin. thats what i imagined.... but since the balts/slavs wont be able to do what i want to, its basicaly screwed anyway.
 
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Incognito

Banned
Guys, what about a POD during or after the Napoleonic Wars? In OTL Russian troops Reached Paris and occupied parts of France. Perhaps there is a way that a portion of the Russian force can remain behind & settle in France to become one of France's minorities. Than have some demographic shifts, some refugees from Slavic countries fleeing some disaster and deciding to settle in Russo-French areas and voala, you might get areas of France that are predominantly Slavic.
 
maybe, however i would prefer a older pod like i said, but if so many people say its impossible, then its not really doable i fear.
 
Guys, what about a POD during or after the Napoleonic Wars? In OTL Russian troops Reached Paris and occupied parts of France. Perhaps there is a way that a portion of the Russian force can remain behind & settle in France to become one of France's minorities. Than have some demographic shifts, some refugees from Slavic countries fleeing some disaster and deciding to settle in Russo-French areas and voala, you might get areas of France that are predominantly Slavic.
In napoleonic times educated Russians were fluent in french and even preferred it over russian when speaking among their peers, they did even quite often gallify their first names of which the character Pierre Bezukhov in Tolstoy's War and Peace is a good example. And post 1800, with a population exceeding 30 millions it will be impossible to achieve a slavic majority in France, let alone one that keeps its' slavic cultural identity. Also, why should refugees from slavic countries move to already densely populated France in significantly larger numbers than they already did IOTL when they can go to sparsely settled America.
 
Guys, what about a POD during or after the Napoleonic Wars? In OTL Russian troops Reached Paris and occupied parts of France. Perhaps there is a way that a portion of the Russian force can remain behind & settle in France to become one of France's minorities. Than have some demographic shifts, some refugees from Slavic countries fleeing some disaster and deciding to settle in Russo-French areas and voala, you might get areas of France that are predominantly Slavic.

Actually there is a somewhat significant number of people with Russian familly names in southwestern france due to emigration after the 1917 revolution. Also a lot of people of polish origin in the old coal mining regions (in southern Alsace there is a whole village where half the people got polish familly names and the other half italian familly names).
 

Thande

Donor
Your POD suffers from many issues, as

- Ingorance of differences of population between invaders (that would represent only a fraction of proto-slavic/dacian population) and invaded.
- XIX century's view on "tribal" vs "roman" institutions VS modern and historical one
- Uber-activity of invader able to conquer everything without caring about logistic and numbers and uber-passivity of invaded.

Regarding the map, it's hilariously wrongly made.
I don't know on what is based, but it's obviously ignoring simple facts about linguistics, demographics and probably every other historical sources.
An advice : delete it from your computer and try to give a look at sources.

For instance in northern France in 500, not only the ethnical german were in minority (except MAYBE in Toxandria but even that is less likely than merging with previous inhabitants) but they were divided and surrounded by gallo-romans.
Being really generous, we could say that 5% of the total population was ethnically frankish.
And for Franks (and for Gallo-Romans as well since VII century) the ethnical feature didn't matter : as long you complied to frankish institutions, you was frankish. Period.

For southern Gaul...Let's say that locals called themselves romans up to the XI century. Why does that germans or other non-roman populations never really managed to dominate there culturally? Too much romanized land EVEN before the roman conquest (trade, cultural dominance, exportation of goods and objetcs that were roman without real equivalence, presence of multiples colonies, etc...)

Cicero was able to call Narbonenis a "little Italy".

Seriously, you should try to find another POD with a check list :
-Not basing yourself only on "geographical features" : "hey it look close enoug, they probably can invade all of this"

-Give even a short study about places involved, technologies in presence, demographics and climatic features (especially for Great Invasions-like TL)

- Not rely on "deus ex machina" as virus, "dictator" happening out of nowhere, divine intervention, etc...But on the OTL situation, trying to use it to modify OTL (By exemple, searching the potential crisis already in existance and tryung to use it)
 
i am not a history student or professor, its hard for me to get real sources, its just a little hobby of mine. i cant really put too much thought into it, so i just use intresing scenarios and try to somehow make them being possible. its not really matter if its likely or plausible, aslong as it isnt massive ASB. for example, i dont want my baltic empire to be a world dominating, realm which is always victorius and glorious. however, the general idea of it, should be, for whatever reasons be it a virus, or massive ethnic cleanising, be withthin the realm of possibility.

The most important before i can actually but more thoughts into it, is. is it possible generally, or is not totally massive ASB. Personally i think that with the right circumstances, my baltic empire could be possible.somehow, it must be possible :(

also latin gets weaker in this timeline, with Rome gone, someone will replace them (either greeks or dacians), maybe even a longer antiquity. after greek fell, greek wasnt that important anymore, latin became more important. christianity will spread much later in this timeline. so latin also isnt the language of the church or the monarchs. maybe dacian or greek can grow more influences here ? and if greek language gains more influence, would that mean that the other countries would adopt the greek alphabet ?
 
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i am not a history student or professor, its hard for me to get real sources, its just a little hobby of mine.
You don't need to be a professional to open a book, criticaly a vulgarization book or to understand that 100 000 men couldn't without any reinforcment (cultural, economical, commercial) overthrow except politically an entiere population of 6 millions.

i cant really put too much thought into it, so i just use intresing scenarios
Then, you should make a TL not regarding plausibility and maybe not asking for plausibility checking there?
I mean, you have plenty of interesting ASB TL on board, maybe you should take a look at it?

. its not really matter if its likely or plausible, aslong as it isnt massive ASB.
Your POD, so far, is ASB not that because of propositions you did but because of the historical conception you have : while it's possible to change history in large spectrum, there's mandatory obstacles as demographics, economy, familial structure, etc that if not taken in consideration are putting you in ASB when it comes to consequences.

for example, i dont want my baltic empire to be a world dominating, realm which is always victorius and glorious. however, the general idea of it, should be, for whatever reasons be it a virus, or massive ethnic cleanising, be withthin the realm of possibility.
No. For reason saids, virus would touch everyone including Balts AND ethnic cleansing appeared historically because of precise conditions. In Antiquity and Late Antiquity you didn't had these. Critically for tribe-based cultures that accepted without "ethnical" discrimination anyone accepting to comply to their rules and NOT searching to force people to became theirs.

Again, watch the conditions of appearace of an historical situation, and if it does NOT exist when you want it to appear then OR make them exist by earlier POD OR forgot about it.

Personally i think that with the right circumstances, my baltic empire could be possible.somehow, it must be possible :(
There's impossibilities : with what you described, it's not possible as ocean can'yt be made of wine because you want it. Really, that's not about your will, it's about the context.

As I don't see what I could say more about it here's a resume for what in my opinion is necessary for a Non-ASB TL :
-Get a look at the era : not just the people you're interested in but their neighbours aslo
-Don't be stuck in one theme : war, demographics, economics, production, culture, trade, etc. It would gave depth and credibility to your TL
- When you search about your TL, you don't need to go in the details (This guy died the 4 November, the cucumber was salted by roman housewifes, etc) but try to have a general point-of-view of the society
-Don't use "perfect solutions" : virus, ethnic cleansing appearing out of nowhere are deus ex machina : inelegant, obvious and boring.
-Begin "freely" : don't begin a TL with the intend of doing something, just use the POD, advance little by little and see where it's going to go.
 
I am not talking about 6 Mio people. And i dont know how many balts there were. but i think there must have been more than 100.000.
according to this site:
Gaul and Rhineland had 5 Mio people around 300 AD. So my guess is that southern gaul would have 2-3 mio people. then not using a virus, but maybe a famine. and this famine could easily result because of the romans empire collaps, wealth is suddenly dropping, there are revolts, there is a civil war in rome, a civil war costs lifes., wars (gauls want to conquer southern gaul back, invading german barbarians fighting). So lets say we got to reduce gauls population to 3 mio. southern gaul would have a max. population of 1,5 mio people.

Lets say we have about 300.000 Balts, maybe 130.000 warriors, fleeing towards south, again there could be various reasons, there could be invading nomadic tribes, maybe germanic tribes or slavic tribes drive them towards south and force them to move away. they settle down in modern hungary around the balaton.
now we have about 300.000 people living here. Raetia Noricum and Pannonia together had 3 mio people in 300 AD, lets say pannonia has 200.000. In OTL when the magyars arrived there were about 200.000 people dwelling in pannonia. about 150.000 people seems realistically in this. the balts dont go and conquer whole of hungary, they just have their realm around Balaton (i assume balaton was rather sparsely populated, because of the swamps and marshes). Since there is no real powering empire in this timeline, various barbarian wars and migrations are much longer here, barbarians wander around without being smashed by the romans. Gaul probably emerges as the most powerful state, followed by Dacia and Macedonia. Gaulish population is still largely gaulish speaking, whith latin losing influences, it might stays a important language to communicate with other culturues or other barbarians who otherwise cant understand you, but there is no church which would allow latin to become a language which can have a long lasting effect, only nobles would learn it. Southern gaul slowly gets celtized by their gaulish elite. the majority of the central cities and large cities are in northern gaul, maybe around the region of modern paris, IIRC that was already the main capital of the gaulish people, i just forgot what it was called.
Dacia probably comprises of whole modern Romania, parts of bulgaria and Hungary till the danube. western of danube we have the baltic kingdom, the border of the baltic kingdom is roughly around modern vienna. In modern austria, in the alpine regions we have the Noricans, they are speaking a language similar to gaulish, however are rather sparesly populated, mainly because of the mountains. the noricans are slowly getting replaced by germanic people in the north, there will be some conflicts.

With no big lasting and influencing empire, all the realms are kinda divided and different, they all folow their customs and religions. However spreading of new religions is also easier without rome which would kill christians. so christianity has chances of spreading even in this timeline, albeit being different, with many different churhcs, so no roman catholic or orthodox one, but there will be a gaulish church, a italian church, a macedonia church etc.

Macedonia is made up of albania, parts of illyria and anatolia. it will also be the first area in europe to be christian, when the people adopt christian religions more and more, till even the noble and kings convert. around 300 AD or so, they will adopt christianity as main relgons. Greek will be the language of the church. other countries wont get christian for longer times, the nearer greek they are sooner they get christian. I assume dacia gets christianized around 300 AD.

By 300 AD, i expect the baltic country, comprising of hungary, parts of Austria, slovakia. being roughly the size of the moravian kingdom. thanks to dacian influences, they also adaopted dacian weapons and dacian symbols such as the dragon, and baltic people themselves have a liking of snakes, ancient lithuanians kept them as pet. They start to sue their shields and banners with dragons, wolf heads or serpents, like the dacians do. they also adopt falx and similar weapons. intrested in the rich iron mines of Noricum, they start a full invasion in Noricum. the country, plagued by germanic invaders, is rather weak, they manage to siege their capital and gain control of it. however the germanic tribes, also want to invade noricum. so there wil be fights, which the balts win, because the germans were already weakend due to the fights with the norican people.
However, they are in pressure, while the dacians are more or less good allies, in the south there are the Greeks, northwards are germanic people. This pressure forces them to become rather aggressive and change their tribal lifestyles, instead they adopt a duchy like system. One king rules the people. They also adopt a successor system, after the king dies, its normally his oldest son who replaces him. by this time the balts already converted to christianity. its around 400 AD now. Gaining strenght and wealth because of the rich mines of Noricum. the balts conquer areas in modern germany and czech republic, their influence gets stronger. the dacians expand eastwards, reaching till the caucasus now, ruling the black sea. Macedonia rules the mediterrean, with Anatolia, southern italy being under their rule.
Gaul expanded over Iberia.

also this is not my final plan, just a idea what could happend, and if migrating to france is not possible, then it must be conquered later somehow.
 
what do you mean with that ? how could i improve it then ? and what is the issue? I think the thing posted above, could be doable.
 
what do you mean with that ? how could i improve it then ? and what is the issue? I think the thing posted above, could be doable.

In AH, everything is doable, that's certain. If you want to do that, I couldn't and wouldn't want say "no".

Now, it's not plausible at all. It would take too long to say how such point is impossible, or other one unrealistic. I mean, there's not ONE point that would be "historically" credible.

As apparently we differ much and as you not search a "plausibility check" but more searching details fitting your plan, I don't think I can be of any help there.
 
For starters, just to pick one thing to illustrate: 300,000 Balts will not have "130,000 warriors" even in the sense of every adult male counted as a warrior.
 
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