Slava class cruiser vs 3 hatsuyuki class destroyers

destiple

Banned
While surface search radar does hug the curvature of the earth a bit, it still only gets you 25% extra on a short range, those conditions where a radar can detect things at 100 miles are uncommon. In any case, freak events where a radar detects something at 100 miles are still well short of the P500s 300 mile range.
so essentially curvature of earth limits the actual range of the missiles ? Harpoon and P500s?

So w/o OTH guidance both missiles essentially have the same range ?

What about the active seekers onboard the P500 will they not guide the missile until the fuel runs out ?
 
While surface search radar does hug the curvature of the earth a bit, it still only gets you 25% extra on a short range, those conditions where a radar can detect things at 100 miles are uncommon. In any case, freak events where a radar detects something at 100 miles are still well short of the P500s 300 mile range.
The other issue is that ESM is (at least as I understand things) also more likely to get "over the horizon" detection of search radars even if the search radars don't get over the horizon performance.

It is probably worth mentioning that over the horizon communications systems exist that use the same frequency bands of many "line of sight" radars. It is my undetstanding that given large enough antennas and powerful enough transmitters these systems can provide continuous communications over hundreds of miles. They are not very common but they do exist. I don't believe this implies that ship born line of site radars will routinely be able to go 100 miles.

In our hypothetical match up this aspect of radar wave propagation and related equipment (ie very sesentive ESM receivers) could be quite significant. For example if the Slava sets their radar power output as high as it can go to maximize the chances of getting over the horizon performance and the Japanese have equipment designed to detect weak over the horizon signals from Soviet radars then the Japanese might detect the Slava at a considerable distance.
 
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so essentially curvature of earth limits the actual range of the missiles ? Harpoon and P500s?

So w/o OTH guidance both missiles essentially have the same range ?

What about the active seekers onboard the P500 will they not guide the missile until the fuel runs out ?

Bear in mind that this is a totally contrived scenario, in reality Japan had about 100 P3s and all sorts of other sensors to build up a picture of enemy ship movements, and the SOviets did as well but possibly even more comprehensive including nuclear powered RORstats. In actual fact navy ships operate without radars a hell of a lot of the time, to deny the enemy a chance to detect their transmissions, which further makes this scenario contrived.

Both ship types have ESM and helicopters to detect the enemy at beyond ship radar range, that's why Seahawk helicopters had their own surface search radar.

The radars of harpoons and P500s are homing radars, they are small and have limited range and azimuth therefore need a ship to put the missile into an area where its limited search capabilities are likely to allow it to find the target.
 
The other issue is that ESM is (at least as I understand things) also more likely to get "over the horizon" detection of search radars even if the search radars don't get over the horizon performance.

It is probably worth mentioning that over the horizon communications systems exist that use the same frequency bands of many "line of sight" radars. It is my undetstanding that given large enough antennas and powerful enough transmitters these systems can provide continuous communications over hundreds of miles. They are not very common but they do exist. I don't believe this implies that ship born line of site radars will routinely be able to go 100 miles.

In our hypothetical match up this aspect of radar wave propagation and related equipment (ie very sesentive ESM receivers) could be quite significant. For example if the Slava sets their radar power output as high as it can go to maximize the chances of getting over the horizon performance and the Japanese have equipment designed to detect weak over the horizon signals from Soviet radars then the Japanese might detect the Slava at a considerable distance.

Yes, the search radar waves not only have to propagate over the horizon but also have to propagate back in the direction of the radar with enough strength to be detected, whereas ESM gear can pick up the whisper which lacked the strength to return to the sender. At which point it would send out the helicopter to sniff around. This is where the 3 smaller Japanese ships would have the advantage, they could work together to triangulate a decent track out of a few whispers and send more than one helicopter to follow up the ESM track all the while being ready to snap-fire multiple harpoon salvos as soon as the track is confirmed.
 
Bear in mind that this is a totally contrived scenario, in reality Japan had about 100 P3s and all sorts of other sensors to build up a picture of enemy ship movements, and the SOviets did as well but possibly even more comprehensive including nuclear powered RORstats. In actual fact navy ships operate without radars a hell of a lot of the time, to deny the enemy a chance to detect their transmissions, which further makes this scenario contrived.

Yeah it reminds me of those scenarios so popular here (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/battleship-vs-battleship-f63/) where WW2 battleships face off without any other warships or aircraft nearby.
 
Yeah it reminds me of those scenarios so popular here (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/battleship-vs-battleship-f63/) where WW2 battleships face off without any other warships or aircraft nearby.

That's not to say I'm not finding it interesting to think about this sort of thing; when the devil is in the details (as it so often is) it's good to know that surface-search radar waves to follow the curve of the earth a bit and P500s operate in teams. But before we start getting the panics about the 1 day a month where radar waves propagate around the curvature of the earth for 100 miles we should remember that the JMSDF had Standard SAM equipped destroyers, other destroyers with multiple Sea Kings and the JASDF had squadrons of P3 for maritime patrol and wings of Mitsubishi F1s for maritime strike with ASM-1 that in the real world will be far more important that unusual radar conditions.

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destiple

Banned
Agreed , my limited scenario actually shows its impossible to have a 1 vs 1 jousting in naval warfare anymore.Infact its not very realistic at all

Japan has lots of assets as you pointed out above and soviet SAG will likely
1-consist of ASW and ASUW vessels
2-Likely not wander too far from their "bastion seas" and have shore based airpower support, that can shoo P-3s away or tangle with their escorts
3-Regiments of AVMF AshM equipped bombeers
4-Plethora of other strike planes like Su-24 which can still make life hell for DD equipped only with point defence weapons
5-A much larger Fleet of SSN and SSGN to support surface ship
6-Have shore based maritime patrol planes as well


I always wondered why Japan only had 6 x Destroyers with standard out of their 35 + destroyers in the late 80s ?
 
The biggest factor is the one we have the least information on. Japanese ECM, if the Japanese can blind the Russian radar and guidance systems the Slava is in serious trouble.
 
The biggest factor is the one we have the least information on. Japanese ECM, if the Japanese can blind the Russian radar and guidance systems the Slava is in serious trouble.
Any jamming signal has a point of origin, you can fire your missiles into that direction and let them try to home in on it. During wartime modern ships are supposed to run at close to 0 emissions, it's one of the rasons why US ships occasionally collide with huge freighters. ECM is something you use when already under fire, not when on the prowl.
 
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