Slava class cruiser vs 3 hatsuyuki class destroyers

destiple

Banned
An isolated fight between a Slava class cruiser vs 3 Hatsuyuki class destroyers circa 1988

No air support on either side
no Submarine support
no nukes


Here is the comparison of their weapons
Slava

Aircraft carried: 1 Kamov Ka-25 or Kamov Ka-27Helicopter

Hatsuyuki class destroyers

Armament:
Aircraft carried: 1 × SH-60J(K) anti-submarine helicopter

Any thoughts on the likely outcome ?
 

SsgtC

Banned
Everybody dies. While the JMSDF ships can launch more missiles as the Soviet, the Soviet ship has much better AA capabilities than the Japanese ships do. Even if 20 of the Harpoons get shot down, 4 are still going to hit. And bye-bye Slava.

OTOH, the JMSDF ships have only point defense weapons. They'll be lucky to kill one or two missiles each. Even if we give them 2 kills each, that still leaves 10 hostile inbounds. Divided among 3 ships? That's like sinking the ship, then bombing the wreckage just in case.
 
The cruiser is a certain combat kill if all three destroyers coordinate their missile shots. The best the cruiser could expect is to concentrate on just one destroyer and combat kill it perhaps also sinking it. Or the cruiser could cripple but not sink all three destroyers. The cruiser could not sink all three destroyers. But all three destroyers could sink the cruiser. Basically it three against one. Everybody is going to get hurt.
 

destiple

Banned
Everybody dies. While the JMSDF ships can launch more missiles as the Soviet, the Soviet ship has much better AA capabilities than the Japanese ships do. Even if 20 of the Harpoons get shot down, 4 are still going to hit. And bye-bye Slava.

OTOH, the JMSDF ships have only point defense weapons. They'll be lucky to kill one or two missiles each. Even if we give them 2 kills each, that still leaves 10 hostile inbounds. Divided among 3 ships? That's like sinking the ship, then bombing the wreckage just in case.
I agree

What if we substitute the Slava with 2 x Kyndas
and Japanese have the same ships

kyndas have primitive defences so both will die FOR SURE

but now the 3 x hatsuyuki are facing 16 x SSN-3b rather than 16 x SSN-12

former is slower and less sophisticated so a lot more vulnerable but can 2 x SSN-3b sneak past the defences of the 3 destroyers to disable two of them ?

Thanks
 
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destiple

Banned
The cruiser is a certain combat kill if all three destroyers coordinate their missile shots. The best the cruiser could expect is to concentrate on just one destroyer and combat kill it perhaps also sinking it. Or the cruiser could cripple but not sink all three destroyers. The cruiser could not sink all three destroyers. But all three destroyers could sink the cruiser. Basically it three against one. Everybody is going to get hurt.
if one or two P-500 hits a destroyer its pretty much toast I think
 
It would come down to who sees first and therefore shoots first, which gives the Japanese with their 3 helicopters the advantage.

A single p500 should be enough to kill a destroyer and the Slava can allocate 5 per ship which should overwhelm the point defences. I think 4 or 5 harpoons should sink a Slava and the Japanese have 24 to use which again should be able to overwhelm the defences.
 
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The Bazalts have a range of 500+ kilometers while the harpoons are limited to 150 or so, if they have to first search each other the Slava has the advantage because it can hit from farther away and has more power for its radar to search the Hatsuyukis and is faster to boot.
 
The Bazalts have a range of 500+ kilometers while the harpoons are limited to 150 or so, if they have to first search each other the Slava has the advantage because it can hit from farther away and has more power for its radar to search the Hatsuyukis and is faster to boot.

Without outside help the Slava will be limited to esm, its helicopter and the radar horizon of about 25 miles.

By 1987 the harpoon had a range well in excess of 250km. Missile range won't be half the problem search coverage is.
 
Without outside help the Slava will be limited to esm, its helicopter and the radar horizon of about 25 miles.

By 1987 the harpoon had a range well in excess of 250km. Missile range won't be half the problem search coverage is.
You may be right, 30 km does sound bad compared ot even WW2 standards - it's little more than the distance to the horizon from its highest point, the ship seems mostly to be covered in air search radars.

I found this regarding the Fregat radar it used:
Radar_Fregat-2.jpg
 

destiple

Banned
Without outside help the Slava will be limited to esm, its helicopter and the radar horizon of about 25 miles.

By 1987 the harpoon had a range well in excess of 250km. Missile range won't be half the problem search coverage is.
which version of harpoon had the range of 250 km ? surface and air launched ones ?

what is the range of the OPS-18 surface search radar compared to Slava's radar ?

The P-500 required OTH targetting for its max range , I'm assuming the Harpoon did not ?
WIll the range of Harpoon also not be limited by the range at which the Hatsuyuki can detect the Slava ?

Was the P-500 linked to the satellite system for targeting or it had to require a BEar D for it ?
 
It would come down to who sees first and therefore shoots first, which gives the Japanese with their 3 helicopters the advantage.
What are the abilities of the different helicopter radars as presumably they will be the ones doing the scouting? Ka27 v SH60J?
 
Without outside help the Slava will be limited to esm, its helicopter and the radar horizon of about 25 miles.

By 1987 the harpoon had a range well in excess of 250km. Missile range won't be half the problem search coverage is.
No. The latest version in service in 1987 was Block 1C, with a range of ~120km.
 
What are the abilities of the different helicopter radars as presumably they will be the ones doing the scouting? Ka27 v SH60J?
Also did either of the helicopter types have air to air search radars and / or air to air weapons ?

If one side can find and destroy the other sides helicopters and then use their helicopter(s) to detect the ship(s) of the other side could they fire their SSM's "over the horizon" and escape without loss ?
 

destiple

Banned
Well I do not think the jap helos had OTH capability or was needed and they were equipped with ASW torpedoes , not really designed for ASUW

The soviet SSM are supersonic but larger targets while Harpoon are true sea skimmers
 
Russian electronics vs Japanese electronics, hmmmm
Apparently the Japanese helicopters had ESM gear. So in theory at least perhaps two of them could passively detect and track the Slava long enough for their parent vessels to fire harpoons from over the horizon ?

The more I think about this it seems to me that the extra helicopters could give the Japanese a considerable advantage.

Does anyone know what the practical detection range of the surface search radar on the Slava was ? Even allowing for the ability of certain radar systems to have a certain degree of "over the horizon" capability a consistent and reliable detection range of over 100 Km seems perhaps a bit optimistic to me due to the curvature of the earth ?
 
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destiple

Banned
The Slava does have long range SAM btw so it might be able to intercept the helos as well

does Harpoon need OTH guidence ?
 

SsgtC

Banned
The Slava does have long range SAM btw so it might be able to intercept the helos as well

does Harpoon need OTH guidence ?
Not in theory. It has its own onboard seeker. In theory, you can fire it in the general direction of your target, and it will guide itself after that. But to ensure accuracy and to make sure it hits what you want it to, it's best to provide it with OTH tracking the whole way
 
The Slava does have long range SAM btw so it might be able to ilntercept the helos as well

does Harpoon need OTH guidence ?
I'm thinking if two or more helicopters worked together and used ESM to locate the Slava from long range it might be quite hard for the Slava to engage the Helos with SAM's.

I suspect in practice this would depend on how good the ESM gear on the Japanese helicopters was, how powerful the radars and other emitters on the Slava were etc.. Still I think having three times as many surface and air borne sensor platforms will give the Japanese an advantage.
 
Not in theory. It has its own onboard seeker. In theory, you can fire it in the general direction of your target, and it will guide itself after that. But to ensure accuracy and to make sure it hits what you want it to, it's best to provide it with OTH tracking the whole way
Can a helo provide mid course guidnace to harpoons ? If so maybe a helo could be positioned to "pop up" say 50 Km or so from the Slava to provide a mid course guidance update ?
 
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