Skip the CVLs, build the four Audacious class

Yup, but I think we've settled on keeping the Colossus and Majestic classes and building 2 extra Audacious class instead of the 4 Centaurs.
Not ALL the Colossus/Majestic CVLs. I can see the first seven up to VJ Day being completed, but everything after that is just throwing good money after bad on unnecessary ships that will be sold off for next to nothing.
 
Is the Vought V-507 Vagabond lighter than a Phantom? Might make a good replacement for the Vixen fighter.

The V-507 is about three feet shorter. Perhaps order this, along with the French (Dassault assisted Vought on the swing wing, IIRC).


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The Vagabond will be available in the same time frame as the OTL winner of the VFX competition the Grumman 303/F14. So it will enter squadron service in the early 70s rather than the late 60s like the F4K.
 
The Vagabond will be available in the same time frame as the OTL winner of the VFX competition the Grumman 303/F14. So it will enter squadron service in the early 70s rather than the late 60s like the F4K.
So we need the Sea Vixen to soldier on until then. I'm not sure it could.
 
Apparently the fleet had plenty of hours left on their airframes by the late 60s, but the aircraft itself was obsolescent upon introduction and obsolete when the FAW2 was introduced. Beside if the UK is going to pay for the development of an aircraft for the RN they'd be best to pay for a British aircraft, not a foreign one.
 
In terms of cost Eagle cost £15 million and Ark Royal cost £21 million. AFAIK there wasn't much inflation between 1951 and 1955, but Ark Royal did have 2 BS Mk 4 steam catapults, an interim angled flight deck and a deck edge lift, which Eagle didn't. In spite of that a third increase in cost seems excessive. Albion, Bulwark and Centaur completed in 1953-54 cost about £10 million each, but Hermes completed in 1959 cost £37.5 million. She was completed with 2 BS Mk 2 steam catapults, 6 degree angled flight deck and a deck edge lift. Hermes also had much more advanced electronics including the Type 984 radar, the Comprehensive Display System and data links, but a 300% increase in cost still seems excessive. By contrast Victorious, which was rebuilt to the same standard as Hermes "only" cost £20 million.

Meanwhile Centaur was fitted with a pair of BS Mk 4 steam catapults (1956-58 IIRC, which is why she missed Suez and) which is why she was retained as a strike carrier and the newer Albion and Bulwark were converted to commando carriers. I thought Eagle was fitted with steam catapults in the 1950s too, but the last time I checked I could not find a reference.

Eagle was fitted with more powerful BS Mk 5 steam catapults, a fully angled flight deck, a Type 984 radar, Action Data Automation (in place of CDS) and data links in her 1959-64 refit. Hermes was refitted 1964-66 and then (IIRC) was followed by Victorious for her abortive refit...

In aircraft carrier threads not nearly enough gets said about catapults, lift size and capacity, hangar space, aviation fuel bunkerage and aircraft ordnance. In reality a reason why HMAS Melbourne didn't go to Vietnam was because she could only spend 10 days 'on the line' compared to 30 days for a USN carrier and I haven't seen how long the bigger RN carriers could send on the line.
 
In aircraft carrier threads not nearly enough gets said about catapults, lift size and capacity, hangar space, aviation fuel bunkerage and aircraft ordnance. In reality a reason why HMAS Melbourne didn't go to Vietnam was because she could only spend 10 days 'on the line' compared to 30 days for a USN carrier and I haven't seen how long the bigger RN carriers could send on the line.
I'm not sure if that is a complement or a criticism. In the 1950s the Royal Navy did assign its ships "Standard" designations according to the weight of aircraft it could operate and how good the radars and electronics were. That's why in threads like these I say things like the rebuilt Victorious was a Standard A ship and that Hermes as completed was a Standard A-Star ship because she was smaller and her flight deck had an angle of 6.5 degrees and to be fully angled it had to be at least 8 degrees.
  • Standard A and B ships were able to operate aircraft up to including the Buccaneer. They had BS Mk 4 or in the case of Eagle in 1964 and Ark Royal after Phantomisation BS Mk 5 steam catapults, plus fully angled fight decks. Or put another way they could operate aircraft that weighted up to 40,000lbs (IIRC) and the Phantom was heavier than that.
  • Standard C and D ships were limited to the Sea Vixen, Sea Venom, Scimitar and Gannet (except that when I checked Ark Royal was the first carrier to embark a squadron of Buccaneers in February 1963). Standard C ships had BS Mk 4 steam catapults and Standard D ships had hydraulic catapults. C and D both had interim angled flight decks. They also had less powerful arrester gear than Standard A and B ships. Or put another way they could operate aircraft that weighed up to 30,000lbs. AFAIK Standard D ships could not operate the Sea Vixen.
  • Standard E and F ships were limited to the aircraft types that came in service up to the end of 1950 because their hydraulic catapults and arrester gear weren't strong enough. Standard E ships had axial flight decks and Standard F ships had interim angled flight decks.
Therefore:
  • The Standard A and B ships were Victorious after her 1950-58 rebuild, Eagle after her 1959-64 refit, Ark Royal after her 1966-70 Phantomisation and Hermes as completed.
  • The Standard C ships were Centaur after she was fitted with steam catapults 1956-58 and Ark Royal as completed in 1955. AFAIK the Colossus and Majestic class that were fitted with BS Mk 4 steam catapults and interim angled flight decks were not officially classified as Standard C, but they could operate the Sea Venom and Gannet.
  • The Standard D ships were Albion, Bulwark, Centaur and Eagle as completed.
  • The Standard E ships were the Illustrious class, the Colossus class, Majestic class and Unicorn. The Majestic class and Unicorn were designed to operate 20,000lb aircraft, the Colossus class was designed to operate 15,000lb aircraft and the Illustrious class was limited to even lighter aircraft.
  • The sole Standard F ship was Warrior after her 1954-56 refit which had her fitted with an interim angled flight deck, stronger arrester gear and her hydraulic catapult was upgraded so she could operate 20,000lb aircraft.
In 1966 Eagle spent 71 days at sea, which at that time was a peacetime record. However, I don't know how many times she was refuelled or how intensely her aircraft were operated or how soon her stocks of aircraft ordnance would have run out if she had been fighting a shooting war instead of being on the Beria Patrol.
 
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I'm not sure if that is a complement or a criticism

Complement, because its these things as well as timings of refits and political decisions that decide the fates of ships, not how old it is, or suitable it is or whatever. For example Centaur was the oldest of her class but she was refitted with an angled deck and steam BS4 cats prior to the 57 Defence White Paper and 58 Winds of Change speech. These changes meant that the Albion and Bulwark wouldn't get big conversions despite being newer and the advantages better understood.

BTW the British cats are BS4 103' power stroke, BS4M (Melbourne) 112' power stroke, BS4A 145' power stroke, BS5 151' power stroke and BS5A 199' power stroke.
 
Complement, because its these things as well as timings of refits and political decisions that decide the fates of ships, not how old it is, or suitable it is or whatever. For example Centaur was the oldest of her class but she was refitted with an angled deck and steam BS4 cats prior to the 57 Defence White Paper and 58 Winds of Change speech. These changes meant that the Albion and Bulwark wouldn't get big conversions despite being newer and the advantages better understood.

BTW the British cats are BS4 103' power stroke, BS4M (Melbourne) 112' power stroke, BS4A 145' power stroke, BS5 151' power stroke and BS5A 199' power stroke.
Thanks.

The BS Mk 4 was even more complicated that that. There were also 139 and 151 feet versions. E.g. Centaur in 1958 had the 139ft version, Victorious in 1958 had the 145ft version while Ark Royal and Hermes had the 151ft version. That might have been why Hermes could operate Phantoms under special conditions. I'm guessing that her deck edge lift allowed her to have catapults that were 12 feet longer than Centaur's.

The BS Mk 6 catapults for CVA.01 would have been 250ft long. AFAIK it could have operated the Tomcat.
 
Thanks.

The BS Mk 4 was even more complicated that that. There were also 139 and 151 feet versions. E.g. Centaur in 1958 had the 139ft version, Victorious in 1958 had the 145ft version while Ark Royal and Hermes had the 151ft version. That might have been why Hermes could operate Phantoms under special conditions. I'm guessing that her deck edge lift allowed her to have catapults that were 12 feet longer than Centaur's.

The BS Mk 6 catapults for CVA.01 would have been 250ft long. AFAIK it could have operated the Tomcat.

Yes the Centaur had 139' BS4C, the Melbourne's BS4 had 9' from Bonaventure's cat added to it in 1971 to bring it up to 112', the Hermes had one of her 103' BS4 replaced with a 145' in 1964-66. As for the 151' BS4, apparently the bow cat of the Ark was rebuilt from 103' BS4 into a 151' BS5, rather than a fully built BS5 dropped in like the Eagles' 1959-64 refit when the hydraulic cats were replaced by steam cats.
 
Yes the Centaur had 139' BS4C, the Melbourne's BS4 had 9' from Bonaventure's cat added to it in 1971 to bring it up to 112', the Hermes had one of her 103' BS4 replaced with a 145' in 1964-66. As for the 151' BS4, apparently the bow cat of the Ark was rebuilt from 103' BS4 into a 151' BS5, rather than a fully built BS5 dropped in like the Eagles' 1959-64 refit when the hydraulic cats were replaced by steam cats.
Some of that is new to me. I had thought that Ark Royal and Hermes had 151ft steam catapults from when they were completed. However...
  • It would explain why Hermes could not operate the Buccaneer until her 1964-66 refit.
  • But not why the pre-Phantomisation Ark Royal could operate Buccaneers, unless it was because they were the S Mk 1 and AFAIK were lighter than the Mk 2 with Spey engines.
  • IIRC the Buccaneer S Mk 1 operating from Eagle after 1964 could not take off with a full load of fuel and had to be topped up by Scimitars fitted with buddy packs.
 
There is considerable confusion in terms of original fitment and later modification of steam catapults. The earliest carriers are the Melbourne and Ark Royal of 1955, Melbourne got 103' BS4 and Ark 145' BS4. In 1956 Centaur got 139' BS4, in 1958 Victorious got 145' BS4 and 1959 Hermes got 103' BS4.

The Eagle got a 151' BS5 and 199' BS5A in 1964, the Hermes had one of its BS4 lengthened from 103' to 145' in 1966 but the Ark had a full 199'BS5A installed and either the 145' BS4 rebuilt to 151' BS5 standard or a complete 151' BS5 installed.

25 de Mayo also had its BS4 lengthened to 145', the Melbourne to 112' and the Minas Gerias had an American catapult installed.

It's like a cottage industry, unlike the US where they built catapults in large numbers.
 
It's like a cottage industry, unlike the US where they built catapults in large numbers.
There are also the BS Mk 4 catapults built for Clemenceau and Foch which IIRC were 170ft 6in long.

I think some of that is because the Essex, Midway and Forrestal classes all had enough length between the bows and forward lift to allow one or two standard length catapults to be produced. Though I think they also found the cost prohibitively expensive because AFAIK they wanted to replace the hydraulic catapults on their SCB.27A Essex class with steam catapults, but could only afford do it to Orikinsay in her SCB.125A refit.
 
There are also the BS Mk 4 catapults built for Clemenceau and Foch which IIRC were 170ft 6in long.

Is the power stroke length 170', or is that the overall length including the ~20-25' for the piston/shuttle etc? Because that's another source of confusion; some quote power stroke, others quote overall track length and still others seem to go from feet to metres to feet and make roundings each time. IIUC the C & F had 145' power stroke BS4s like the Ark and Victorious.
 
In 1966 Eagle spent 71 days at sea, which at that time was a peacetime record. However, I don't know how many times she was refuelled or how intensely her aircraft were operated or how soon her stocks of aircraft ordnance would have run out if she had been fighting a shooting war instead of being on the Beria Patrol.

Melbourne spent ~30 days at sea in the Indian Ocean in 1980, our reaction to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the Melbourne's first cruise in the IO.

I'm going to do some mental gymnastics, so bear with me. Everything is a rough order of magnitude not a certainty, I'm trying to get a feel for things.

IIUC the Majestic class magazines held enough bombs etc for each aircraft to conduct their primary mission 4 times and cannon ammo for (I think) 20 engagements for each fighter. So for the CVLs that is about 40 late WW2 aircraft, maybe 1/3-1/2 attack aircraft carrying a pair of 500-1000lb bombs or 8 rockets or a torpedo. So there is enough fuel and ammo for the ~15-20 fighters to fly 300-400 CAP sorties and ~20-25 attack aircraft to fly 80-100 attack sorties requiring 160-200 bombs for example and in practice in Korea the HMAS Sydney used 8 rockets and 235 20mm rounds for every bomb they dropped in 43 days of combat flying. Bringing this magazine capacity into the 60s and 70s, the Melbourne carried 8-12 Skyhawks (we'll say 10) and each Skyhawk would carry not a pair of bombs but more likely 3-6 (we'll say 5 on average), so 160-200 bombs is still only good for ~4 attack sorties per aircraft with Skyhawks in 1970.

IIUC the Audacious were designed to carry 80 late WW2 aircraft, if the same 1/2-1/3 were attack aircraft conducting 4 missions each with 2 bombs are assumed then their magazines would hold 320-480 bombs. Given a Buccaneer can easily tote 8 bombs then 12 Buccaneers in a squadron would go through 96 bombs in a day and 480 bombs in 5 days, a 25% increase over what a Majestic could do but I think still well short of a Forestall which could do 8 days.
 
Not ALL the Colossus/Majestic CVLs. I can see the first seven up to VJ Day being completed, but everything after that is just throwing good money after bad on unnecessary ships that will be sold off for next to nothing.
For some clarification are the other 9 suspended on VJ Day or being suspended in 1944?

IOTL the RN was down to 6 Colossus CVL and 2 aircraft maintenance ships by 1948 anyway. The other 2 were sold to France and the Netherlands, which contributed to the export drive and gave Hugh Dalton and Stafford Cripps some much needed cash. The 6 Majestics were suspended by February 1946 IOTL anyway and selling 4 out of 6 of them did help the British economy over the long term.

The Admiralty and Naval Staff did not consider them unnecessary ships. It wanted them as escort carriers for World War III which was expected to break out in 1957 because there wouldn't be enough suitable merchant ships available for conversion. IIRC the plan up to 1948 was to modernise the 6 Colossus class and 3 Majestic class that the RN still owned to operate 30,000lb aircraft (the suspended Hercules and Leviathan would be completed to that standard). All 6 Colossus CVL were operational carriers until 1953-54 when the first 3 Centaurs were completed and the 3 displaced ships became training ships replacing the cadet training ship and the 2 Illustrious class in the Training Squadron.

I think its noteworthy that the only Colossus discarded before the 1957 Defence Review was the aircraft maintenance ship Pioneer. None of the 6 CVLs was discarded until the Royal Navy switched to preparing for the next Battle of the Atlantic to the East of Suez strategy in 1957.

I think the main problem with the Colossus and Majestic classes was that they became obsolete too quickly because they were only designed for 15-20,000lb aircraft when the Centaur class that followed were capable of operating 30,000lb aircraft. With hindsight the Admiralty should have made them faster and capable of operating 30,000lb aircraft that is build 16 Centaur class. If the extra steel and machinery making capacity was not available the Swiftsure and Tiger class cruisers should have been sacrificed. IIRC their construction was given a lower priority so that more labour and materials was available for the light fleet carriers anyway.
 
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