Sixes and Snake eyes Rommel's luck in an alternate 1942 desert war

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I was referring to this:



At present, it's just thoughts of the British as to what is possible. If it comes to pass, then it is not very credible. Shifting units from south Russia to North Africa just isn't going to happen without a major change of, for want of a better term, strategy from the German High Command.

As for the intelligence of Eppler:



Having changed things such that Salaam is still operational, you have three choices. Use it in such a way as to benefit the Germans. That involves Eppler and sympathetic Egyptians providing useful intelligence beyond that which is common knowledge around the bazaar. That would be granting a competence to Eppler (who never provided one word of useful intelligence OTL, and went out of his way to avoid giving such intelligence) way beyond OTL - without explanation; it would be granting access to information from sympathetic Egyptians (who will have no way of knowing what is on the ground where outside of Cairo or Alexandria, which won't be very helpful). Such sources are useful in developing a picture of the background situation, but they are useless for tactical purposes.

Or you could use it to benefit the British, by having them turn Eppler and have him supply Rommel with misleading information. This would actually be quite plausible. The British were good at turning German agents. We can see that by the number they did turn. We can also see that Eppler is very turnable. Indeed, even a tyro could turn him with ease. However, that would mean giving the British a break, and we haven't seen that happen yet in this TL.

Or you could do nothing much with it. It's still there, but provides no useful intelligence. While this is probably the most plausible outcome, it also violates Chekov's Gun and is a case of poor writing. We've all done it at some stage - introduce something that seems like a neat idea, only for it to be dropped or forgotten or simply go nowhere. That's what first drafts are for (which I assume is what this TL is). If that is the case, then the whole thing needs excising from the finished version, because it something serves no function in the story, it doesn't belong.
Discussion of south Russia at this point is to give reader perspective on British anxieties. Auchinlek in the first week in July; whilst he was the height of the crisis against Rommel was briefed that Kliest and Hoth had "Come down on the Ukraine like a hammer on a pane of glass" which coincided with Stalin demanding that Churchill arrange for 30 western divisions be shipped through Persia to fight on the southern end of his front against case blue forces.

ICGS officers American Joint Chiefs and MEGHQ put together working plans to deploy stuff there to backstop a potential loss of the oil producing regions or generalized collapse. Brooke thankfully given all the experiences of putting Entente soldiers onto Russian soil in the previous war talked/threatened Churchill out of taking it so seriously

We have some certain hindsite knowledge to speculate on timeline effects on Eppler; including his handlers being dead, which he couldn't know at the time; Eppler should have been legitimately afraid of the British catching him (although he certainly acted like he didn't, which is why they did catch him) and he claims he was afraid, that because he had taken money from Seebohme, that if he didn't send him ... something that Seebohme would line him up against a wall when Rommel's army would arrive in Cairo

In terms of sympathetic Egyptians; Eppler did OTL get hooked up with members of the Egyptian free officers movement, including Anwar Sadat. Wandering around Cairo, going in to bars and bordellos, Eppler could probably have gotten a list of units passing through town fairly passively if he was smart enough to keep a lower profile. The free officers movement however could have given him good stuff if he wanted/cared to pass it on

The Egyptian army did lots of manual labor for the 8th army including moving it's artillery pieces to the front and delivery work of war materials to the fighting divisions; that is the sort of information Rommel might find very useful

But Eppler was horny and drunk, and therefore would be quite likely to mess up the above

no spoilers :)
 
12.2
Chapter 12.2

06-04-42 23:59 hrs British 8th army and Middle East HQ Cairo Egypt Reporting back to American President Roosevelt and Joint Chiefs of Staff; Colonel Bonner Fellers, American military attache to MEGHQ

Urgent final update of day and personal observations

Local commander at Knightsbridge requests terms from Axis commanders tonight !
Knightsbridge commander sites large number of wounded among his forces and inability to protect the wounded from air attacks and shelling
Per previous private disclosures, this represents upwards of 20,000 lost soldiers, accounting may take a couple of days due to previously advised unit mixing
Surrender of units at Knightsbridge leaves Gazala troops as only substantial British military formation left in the western desert
GHQ staff officers privately advise that hundreds of vehicles and substantial military equipment will be lost at Knightsbridge
Commonwealth staff officers are furious at the loss of their troops under Ritchie's command, Ritchie to be relieved at 1500 hrs tomorrow
Surrender of Knightsbridge forces frees up axis air force assets to apply additional pressure against Gazala troops
Surrender of Knightsbridge forces frees up Axis motorized/armored formations to apply additional pressure against Gazala troops
Total British losses since Rommel's attack began, at least 50,000 men
Surrender of Knightsbridge forces secures all of Rommel's supply lines south of the coastal road in the western desert
GHQ staff officers privately advise that, beyond a worsened strategic state, collapse at Knightsbridge will have tangible effects on morale and discipline, they advise resistence timetable for Gazala troops reduced, but they do not acknowledge what the window actually is
Our own staff projects Gazala troops holding out no more than another 48 hours, but this may be generous given the collapse of the other pockets; Gazala troops are extremely vulnerable to air attacks
GHQ staff officers privately advise that eventual collapse of Gazala pocket will yield hundreds of vehicles and much army equipment to the axis
I have asked a GHQ staffer to re-assess what supply dumps, where in what spot on May 26th so we can jointly make a more educated projection of what Rommel has taken, especially fuel to make future assessments to his operating range
Our staff now believes Rommel will need 5-7 days to consolidate his army to attack across the border, once the troops at Gazala are consumed, we believe this says more about moving his airforce forward, than losses to his troops. Reports from evacuated troops and private GHQ staff officers disclosures give an impression that except for the heavy fighting going on at Belhamed now, and with some elements of troops at Gazala now, that Rommel has not lost very much; particularly when he has received some replacements this week
We regard Rommel as likely having infantry parity with remaining 8th army forces once Gazala troops are lost; depending on his ability to drive his infantry divisions forward into Egypt
Our staff and GHQ are going to prepare several assessments regarding Rommel's projected tank strength, both as to what it may be now, and what it would be after a 7 day consolidation/repair cycle for his forces. General Smith doesn't want to take axis use of captured British runners into account in these calculations, our staff's assessments will assume Rommel has taken 10 percent of defeated tanks as prizes for his tank crews to put to their use.
Air attache staff is putting together revised assessments for what Rommel could bring to an invasion of Egypt with his airforce
Naval attache staff is working with Royal Navy and Desert Air Force staff officers to reassess Rommel's supply situation, on the pretense that he can operate out of Tobruk with 25% capacity, it is still not exactly known if this is an accurate basis, but it is what the Royal Navy staff is currently using, so we will carry it for now in our estimates
GHQ staff openly admit Rommel has captured major British army fuel supplies, ammunition and vehicle depots and substantial soft stores (food/water/medicines/clothing etc) that he will use to reinvigorate his army and use to propel it into Egypt
We are performing our own study (as is GHQ) to assess different distribution scenarios of Rommel using the many vehicles he has captured fully or "more" motorize his semi motorized Italian infantry divisions, and extrapolate that into our projections of how many divisions he can bring across the border and how quickly they can be moved there
Auchinlek on paper has 4 divisions in Egypt, these are still widely dispersed due to internal security needs in Egypt itself and the need to secure supply lines. More formations are in the pipeline. Auchinlek's current strength on the Egyptian coastal road is very troubling, and the Royal Navy is straining all resources to transfer his formations as quickly as possible
Auchinlek is still reviewing options for defensive positions in Egypt, he advises that although Mersah Matruh was a fortress before the war, that this status was not maintained much the last two years and the works have fallen into disrepair; anti tank ditches in particular are prone to filling in, in Egypt and Libya due to the often swirling currents of the sand.
Auchinlek is unsure if he wants to make a stand at Matruh because the terrain to the south makes it vulnerable to it being flanked and encircled;
Royal Navy Staff Officers advise they cannot support a besieged garrison at Matruh if such a thing where to occur there
Auchinlek also considering mobile delaying actions in most of Egypt; and making a primary stand at positions labeled "El Alamein" about 75 miles from Alexandria itself. This is wildly unpopular with the Royal Navy and Air Force because it brings their primary Delta operating bases in range of escorted German dive bombers; this position does have the advantage, unique for the desert in that there are cliffs and salt lakes about 40 miles to the south, so this would force Rommel into a frontal battle and neutralize his wild maneuvering ability
Our staff is assessing the options but lean towards the Alamein option because Matruh is another potential prisoner pen
Discussions are furious inside GHQ about destroying the rail line in Egypt or risking Rommel using it against them, it had taken months to get it built to Belhamed, destroying it renders eventual reconquest of these areas very difficult and time consuming
Discussions are furious in GHQ about martial law and military curfew in Egypt's large cities
Discussions are furious in GHQ about security lapses both in the field and back in Egypt; Smith plans a major reworking of depots and communications plans for Egyptian defense on the basis that Rommel has captured or is in the process of capturing many secret documents in Libya and has spies in Egypt
Royal Navy staff officers are now more openly pessimistic about the value in trying to resupply Malta now that Rommel may be able to convoy from Crete to Tobruk, they fear significant starvation of the garrison and civilian population
Royal Navy staff officers privately advise they expect heightened activities of axis submarines near their fleet anchorages in Egypt
Per our previous analysis and interviews/feedback from evacuated soldiers, British use of combined arms at all fighting in Libya this week was poor, many attacks where launched piece meal with inadequate intelligence or air recon of Rommel's troop positioning
It is plainly obvious that between lost documents, captured senior officers and other sources of intelligence at Rommel's disposal that he was well prepared for counter attacks and met, them, as we have directly observed with the 29th brigade with his artillery and infantry dug in, in all the right places; as much as the British need to improve their coordination of service branches, they need to stop the operational security lapses
GHQ moods which where boosted yesterday, by the announcement of the USA expeditionary air force, and severely impared by loss of Knightsbridge, even though that position had been generally thought to be hopeless even before freeborne was approved
Impending collapse of Gazala troops weighs heavily on GHQ, Auchinlek is allowing some staffers to leave for periods of sleep
Desert Airforce staff officers privately advise they urgently need Rommel's consolidation period to bring forward more drop tanks and to address escalating fatigue issues among their fighter pilots
Desert Airforce staff officers privately advise that axis pattern of night time harassment bombing of air bases is having debilitating effects on operational readiness because pilots and crew keep waking to go to shelter
German bombers from Crete attacked Alexandria and the Canal zone today, this lead to renewed bitterness between the service chiefs about redeployment of air and other assets from the Canal zone to the front lines
Our own staff has been laboring very much under the increased work load and requires some cycling to address fatigue, I currently intend to give each staff member one day of liberty during Rommel's consolidation to refresh temper and nerve for the challenges ahead

End transmission
 
If news of the loss of Alexandria (or whatever - let's say for the sake of discussion that something like this happens) causes Churchill to drop dead from apoplexy, then who exactly takes over to head the British war effort at this point? Smuts? Eden? Attlee? These are all various names I've seen mentioned in discussion (edit: in other threads on this sort of thing), but I'm not clear on who is the favoured candidate in mid-1942?
 
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If news of the loss of Alexandria (or whatever - let's say for the sake of discussion that something like this happens) causes Churchill to drop dead from apoplexy, then who exactly takes over to head the British war effort at this point? Smuts? Eden? Attlee? These are all various names I've seen mentioned in discussion (edit: in other threads on this sort of thing), but I'm not clear on who is the favoured candidate in mid-1942?
That would be interesting in it's own timeline "replace churchill 1942" or "churchill bad political fortunes 1942" I believe there are a number of ways that could play out. My timeline isnt going to get into those items
 
That would be interesting in it's own timeline "replace churchill 1942" or "churchill bad political fortunes 1942" I believe there are a number of ways that could play out. My timeline isnt going to get into those items
This looks like it is heading for American troops arriving in an attempt to rescue the British position only to make the same mistakes they made OTL in the Kasserine pass and Rommel looting their supplies. Patton as a pow of the Germans?
I wonder what the Germans are doing with all the allied Pows they are capturing. Can they be sent back to Itlay or Greece?
edit.
looks like OTL the Italians shipped them back to Italy.
 
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I would like to quote this because it is very pertinent to this history, Keonig's 3700 frenchmen holding out against 5 axis divisions and their entire air force for 16 days was miraculous, and if judged outside the true history, it wouldnt be considered plausible at all
Very true. It's something I'm going to file away for my own use. It certainly has potential.
 
There's a fair bit of ASB in OTL, as in events that would be laughed off or called "Mary Sue' were they to occur in fiction.
True. Fraxinet is my go-to example. The idea of a boat-load of people, blown off course, capturing a castle and creating a minor state of their own? Utterly ASB.
But it did happen.....
 
I would like to quote this because it is very pertinent to this history, Keonig's 3700 frenchmen holding out against 5 axis divisions and their entire air force for 16 days was miraculous, and if judged outside the true history, it wouldnt be considered plausible at all
Indeed and the British surrender at Singapore the Japanese who were outnumbered thought they were going to be asked to surrender and were prepared to surrender would be hard to believe if it was not true.
 
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This looks like it is heading for American troops arriving in an attempt to rescue the British position only to make the same mistakes they made OTL in the Kasserine pass and Rommel looting their supplies. Patton as a pow of the Germans?
I wonder what the Germans are doing with all the allied Pows they are capturing. Can they be sent back to Itlay or Greece?
edit.
looks like OTL the Italians shipped them back to Italy.
POW trips back for the troops lost at Gazala were near universally unpleasant; the axis where as badly strung out as they where and had little ability to care for them, even if they mostly intended to follow the laws of war; its part of the reason prisoner exchanges (at least in small scale) where more common in the desert than on other fronts; the Germans in particular had a habit of trading captured British medical or staff officers for cigarettes or just giving them back for nothing so they didn't have to feed them
 
POW trips back for the troops lost at Gazala were near universally unpleasant; the axis where as badly strung out as they where and had little ability to care for them, even if they mostly intended to follow the laws of war; its part of the reason prisoner exchanges (at least in small scale) where more common in the desert than on other fronts; the Germans in particular had a habit of trading captured British medical or staff officers for cigarettes or just giving them back for nothing so they didn't have to feed them
I imagine any going back like that would have to sign a promise not to rejoin the British armed forces unless exchanged for axis pows.
 
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I imagine any going back like that would have to sign a promise not to rejoin the British armed forces unless exchanged for axis pows.
The cigarette swaps stories don't especially mention parole documents being part of the deal, some captured staff officers or high rankers went for 7 figure quantities of smokes lol, can't ask him to sign a parole document if he's going to be ransomed for that much
 
Local commander at Knightsbridge requests terms from Axis commanders tonight !
Knightsbridge commander sites large number of wounded among his forces and inability to protect the wounded from air attacks and shelling
Any examples where this happened OTL?
Auchinlek on paper has 4 divisions in Egypt, these are still widely dispersed due to internal security needs in Egypt itself and the need to secure supply lines.
Any examples when this happened OTL?

Little new or unexpected in your approach to this timeline.
 
The cigarette swaps stories don't especially mention parole documents being part of the deal, some captured staff officers or high rankers went for 7 figure quantities of smokes lol, can't ask him to sign a parole document if he's going to be ransomed for that much
Indeed.
some background info on Pows the axis captured
Narratives from North Africa: South African prisoner-of-war experience following the fall of Tobruk, june 1942
 
Any examples where this happened OTL?

Any examples when this happened OTL?

Little new or unexpected in your approach to this timeline.
the examples of British troops surrendering in North Africa when surrounded and bombarded (in this time period)? Tobruk and Matruh

Knightsbridge box troops where heavily defeated in OTL, many were killed/taken prisoner on the battlefield, many where driven into the Tobruk perimeter and eventually forced to surrender, a limited amount survived to retreat to Egypt and be reformed; the difference in my timeline is they are surrounded in place instead of mostly being pushed into Tobruk to be surrounded, which is why my Tobruk prisoner count is lower than OTL Toburk prisoner count

The British army had to keep a number of formations in Egypt for internal security duties and mundane but critical LOC work; this was the case the entire desert war; this also includes the canal defensive zone; Fellers description of that condition is basically OTL, the 8th army had run military intimidation operations against the Egyptian government as recently as Feb and March 1942, so the need was always in the background
 
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The British army had to keep a number of formations in Egypt for internal security duties and mundane but critical LOC work; this was the case the entire desert war; this also includes the canal defensive zone; Fellers description of that condition is basically OTL, the 8th army had run military intimidation operations against the Egyptian government as recently as Feb and March 1942, so the need was always in the background
Line of Communications troops and sundry battalions, yes, but you specifically said Divisions being used for this work. Examples?
 
the examples of British troops surrendering in North Africa when surrounded and bombarded (in this time period)? Tobruk and Matruh
No, using the number of wounded as a justification for surrender, rather than a "last man, last round" defence.
 

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The cigarette swaps stories don't especially mention parole documents being part of the deal, some captured staff officers or high rankers went for 7 figure quantities of smokes lol, can't ask him to sign a parole document if he's going to be ransomed for that much
Ransom would negate parole, at least based on historic precedents.

Parole would, BTW, be extremely interesting IOTL since it only applied until prisoners were "properly exchanged". That would mean that it would end as soon as Tunisia fell giving the WAllies a cornucopia of Axis prisoners for exchange. What makes it even more interesting is that, given the Italian surrender is only a few months into the future, is that the WAllies would regain thousands of veteran personnel at effectively no cost.
 
Ransom would negate parole, at least based on historic precedents.

Parole would, BTW, be extremely interesting IOTL since it only applied until prisoners were "properly exchanged". That would mean that it would end as soon as Tunisia fell giving the WAllies a cornucopia of Axis prisoners for exchange. What makes it even more interesting is that, given the Italian surrender is only a few months into the future, is that the WAllies would regain thousands of veteran personnel at effectively no cost.
that was supposed to be what happened in OTL; the Germans unfortunately where able to take custody of a lot of the allied prisoners in Italy when they conducted operation achse which the last of Italy's long string of disasters in that war
 
No, using the number of wounded as a justification for surrender, rather than a "last man, last round" defence.
oh apologies for misunderstanding, I don't think any condition existed in the desert that would be similar to what I did to Knightsbridge force, surrendering British forces either ran out of ammunition or quit when they got hopelessly cut off

closet OTL comparison is Paulus troops at Stalingrad I guess, which depending on your favorite source had 25-50k wounded troops in his encircled command, which played a role in him choosing to surrender vs last man last bullet;
 
This looks like it is heading for American troops arriving in an attempt to rescue the British position only to make the same mistakes they made OTL in the Kasserine pass and Rommel looting their supplies. Patton as a pow of the Germans?
I wonder what the Germans are doing with all the allied Pows they are capturing. Can they be sent back to Itlay or Greece?
edit.
looks like OTL the Italians shipped them back to Italy.
Patton wouldn't be with the armored division, if it's sent it's divisional commander would probable be the ranking U.S. officer. Patton was already marked for a Corps level command. That's why he was earmarked to command the ground troops in the Western Task Force going to Morocco. POW's could be put on empty cargo ships heading back to Italy.
 
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