Six Roses, Red and White: A Tudor TL

How should I handle a rework of this timeline?

  • Edit the posts on this thread

    Votes: 14 32.6%
  • Start a new thread

    Votes: 29 67.4%

  • Total voters
    43
So if Henry only has doughters than who will Henry VIII have as the next dynasty who ever Elizabeth Marred would be the Prince consort or co-monarch of England.

I wonder if otl Henri III of France could be an option he did have an older brother Francis whose death was due to the illness he got in captivity in Spain.

You could give Henry VIII a son would you go for a new name or something unique but English like George, Edmund or something different. There is of course Henry and Edward by there could be John as well linking to the Lancastrian dynasty.

I am wondering will you be expanded the story to include the stewards and other European dynasty or will you primarily focus on the Tudors
A lot of this stuff I already have planned out, and will be revealed later in the story…but for now, I will say that I plan on focusing on Henry, Katherine, Henry’s sisters, and Henry and Katherine’s daughters (as well as their children when the time comes). I will probably throw in a POV from Elizabeth’s eventual husband (I’m not going to say who that will be but it’s not too hard to figure out…) and the children of Henry’s sisters. Other figures will appear in the story (I plan on including all of Henry viii’s otl wives) but they will be mostly in the background, not having their own POV.
 
Last edited:
XIV: June-October 1514
Greenwich, June 1514

“You vile knave! You unscrupulous villain!” Mary screamed, bursting quite unexpectedly into Henry’s privy chamber, “Do you truly expect me to marry that man?! I will not do it!”

Henry frowned and sat down the lute that he had been playing, “Hello, sister. I see you have been informed of your new engagement.”

Mary’s face grew red, as it always did when she was infuriated, “My new engagement? Is that truly what you call this torturous arrangement? For this was my match with the King of Castile thrown away? The King of France is well old enough to be my father! It is a disgrace and it is wholly your fault!”

“My fault?” Now it was Henry’s turn to get infuriated, “My fault? Well then, if you are so hot to marry young Charles then perhaps you ought to write a letter to his grandfather. Because I am done treating with the King of Aragon! Did you not know that he was urging your precious Charles to put you away anyways? Yes, indeed, as we speak old Ferdinand is arranging for Charles’s betrothal to King Louis’s younger daughter - a child of three, Mary! Now tell me whose insult is the greater!”

“Yours by far! You have let your pride ruin this alliance, through which you gained your wife! And through which I might have gained my happiness! You have sacrificed my youth and my future at the altar of your vanity!” Mary spat.

“You will not speak to me in such a way, you insolent girl!” Henry roared in response, “You will go to France and you will marry Louis! That is the end of it! Now get out of my sight or you shall be dragged from it!”

Suddenly then, tears began to bud in Mary’s eyes, “Your Grace...please...I did not mean to let my anger fly away from me so. But surely you must acknowledge that this is a sacrifice on my part. Please, Brother. Give me something to hold onto, so that I may do what you command of me.”

“Oh…” Henry’s anger began to dissipate at seeing his sister’s tears, “You are crafty. But I cannot promise you anything and you ought to know that. Should Louis die without getting a child by you, your remarriage would be at the behest of his successor. You may not like it, but it is what is good and just.”

“Good and just,” Mary repeated softly, “Good and just. Is that truly what you think of this? A young girl in the bed of an aging, decrepit old king? Good indeed! Just indeed! Do you truly think our parents would have made me go through with this?”

Henry sighed in frustration. Mary knew what she was doing, there was no universe in which she did not. And yet, Henry couldn’t help but feel a bit of pity for her. It was not the comment about their parents - in fact, they likely would’ve had less sympathy for Mary than he did. But they had also both commanded Henry to look after Mary, to see to her happiness. Henry wasn’t entirely convinced that she wouldn’t be happy in France; Louis was delighted at the thought of marriage to her and was unlikely to live terribly long past their wedding anyways. With any luck, Mary would wind up a young and rich widow, regent of France for her and Louis’s infant son. Why she couldn’t see all of that, Henry didn’t know. He did know, though, that the face of the girl in front of him, blotchy and teary eyed as it was, was not happy.

“Mary,” Henry said at last, “I want you to be happy. I want you to go to France and be happy. Imagine if you and Louis were to have a son. You would be young, rich, and regent of France. Is that not something that you would want?”

Mary hesitated for a second but her expression remained firm, “I would rather die the poorest pauper than be the wife of the King of France for a moment. Mark my words on that, Your Highness.”

“Then I fear we are at an impasse,” Henry said coolly, “If you want to die a pauper then that can surely be arranged. But I will give you time to accept what I am asking of you. This is the one kindness I can grant, Mary. Make use of it.”

Mary apparently knew a dismissal when she heard one, for as soon as she heard this she pressed her lips together and gave a stiff bow before turning around and leaving.



Abbeville, October 1514

It was a pitiful wedding if ever there had been one. The bride, not more than 18 years old and perhaps the most beautiful girl in all of Christendom, was absolutely resplendent, her gown of cloth of silver contrasting splendidly with her long, loose red hair, the rich ultramarine of her kirtle bringing out her sparkling blue eyes. Meanwhile, her groom was a tall and haggard looking man in his fifties, clearly in ill health though he had managed to tremble his way down the aisle. His clothing was as grand as his bride’s and perhaps he would’ve been dashing in it at one time, but that time in question was long gone. In spite of all this, he had a smile on his face on that rainy autumn day and looked with nothing but delight on the girl processing towards him.

For her part, Mary was not nervous, not anymore. Louis was old and weak - with God’s assistance, he would not be able to consummate their marriage and Mary would not even have to endure the part of it all which she had dreaded the most. And at any rate, even if the old king could manage to bed her, he was so besotted with her that she felt most assured of having her way in all other things.

“My lady,” Louis said, bowing gallantly as Mary reached him.

“My lord,” Mary said softly, bowing in response.

Mary then took Louis’s arm, and they knelt together in front of the altar to become husband and wife.



York, October 1514

Catalina attempted to keep a happy expression on her face as she watched the scene playing out in front of her. It had been easy enough watching the Scottish party arrive the previous evening - Queen Margaret was pleasant company and baby Alexander was a delight - but now, standing by the altar at York Minster, she felt bile rising in her throat. She had failed to convince Henry to reconcile with her father and now both the older and younger Mary Tudor were to be sacrificed in the name of peace with France and Scotland, the older Mary’s engagement to Catalina’s nephew discarded. Catalina’s only consolation was that she was once again with child, due to give birth in December.

It was Lady Bryan who walked three year old Mary down the aisle. The Queen of Scots and her son were already standing at the altar, Queen Margaret’s gown failing to conceal her own pregnant stomach and the Duke being held by his nurse, who had been given a new gown of her own for the occasion. The new Scottish ambassador, Patrick Paniter, was also present to serve as the Duke’s proxy, while Mary was to be represented by Master Roger Ratcliffe, one of Catalina’s gentleman ushers.

When Lady Bryan and Mary arrived at the altar, Thomas Wolsey, who was officiating in his new capacity as Archbishop of York, stepped forward and took Mary’s hand. He then placed it in Master Paniter’s hand, and began the ceremony. Catalina couldn’t help but be proud of her daughter - despite the somewhat bored expression on her face, Mary looked every inch a princess worthy of her ancestry, wearing a gown of deep green velvet over a black damask kirtle trimmed in pearls and diamonds, and a necklace around her neck of red and white Tudor roses interspersed with a stylized ‘A’ for her betrothed, all wrought in gold. The necklace had been commissioned by the Scottish king for his future daughter in law and had arrived just in time for the ceremony.

At last, Wolsey’s prayers and blessings were concluded and it was time for the exchange of rings. Roger Ratcliffe stepped forward first.

“I, Lady Mary Tudor, by consent of my lord father Henry VIII, King of England and France and Lord of Ireland, do plight my troth to thee, Alexander Stewart, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.”

Ratcliffe handed to Paniter a plain gold ring, which Catalina knew had been engraved with the phrase ‘My heart is forever yours’, and Paniter then spoke.

“I, Alexander Stewart, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Carrick, Baron of Renfrew, Lord of the Isles, and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland, by consent of my lord father James IV, King of Scotland, do plight my troth to thee, Lady Mary Tudor.”

After he finished, Paniter reached out and placed on Ratcliffe’s finger a silver ring encrusted in sapphires. Wolsey said one final benediction, and then Catalina rose, as the parties departed the minster for the celebrations at Bishopthorpe Palace. Mary clung to Catalina as they rode in their litter together.

“You did very well in the ceremony, my dear,” Catalina said softly, stroking her daughter’s dark hair.

“I did, Mama?” Mary asked, looking up at Catalina with expectant eyes.

Catalina nodded, “Of course, querida. Young Alexander will be very lucky to have you as his bride one day. You will make an excellent queen for Scotland.”

Mary was quiet for a moment, then spoke, “Yes, Mama.”
 
Last edited:
Hopefully Louis XII moderates a bit in the chamber, and doesn’t die when he did. Great description of the wedding ceremony too!
 
I love this! The argument certainly seems to have mostly gone Henry's way, but I like how he softened a little towards his favorite sister. Louis as ever seems quite pleased to marry Marry, and I wonder what plans you have in mind for her? I also really liked the betrothal scene, it was very well written out and it will be interesting to see how Mary the younger's life goes here. Wonderful chapter!
 
I love this! The argument certainly seems to have mostly gone Henry's way, but I like how he softened a little towards his favorite sister. Louis as ever seems quite pleased to marry Mary, and I wonder what plans you have in mind for her? I also really liked the betrothal scene, it was very well written out and it will be interesting to see how Mary the younger's life goes here. Wonderful chapter!
Thank you! Yeah, Henry just wants Mary to be happy, though he obviously has his own ideas about how to bring that about.
 
“You did very well in the ceremony, my dear,” Catalina said softly, stroking her daughter’s dark hair.
So I guess little Mary takes after one or both of her grandfathers.

I'm really enjoying this timeline! I can't wait to see how the butterflies will develop and affect continental politics as Henry and Catherine will have plenty of daughters to marry around, maybe to great rulers (Charles V *wink wink*). I hope their next daughter (Anne/Margaret?) is another healthy princess.

While I'm happy for Margaret I'm not yet sure what to make of a surviving James and wether or not Louis lives I really want Mary the Elder to fare better than she did in OTL. But anyways, great update!
 
So I guess little Mary takes after one or both of her grandfathers.
Yes, she's the only of her sisters so far to have Fernando's dark hair.
I'm really enjoying this timeline! I can't wait to see how the butterflies will develop and affect continental politics as Henry and Catherine will have plenty of daughters to marry around, maybe to great rulers (Charles V *wink wink*). I hope their next daughter (Anne/Margaret?) is another healthy princess.
Glad to hear it! And oh yes, there will be many butterflies. Also, if there's another daughter, her name will be Margaret.
While I'm happy for Margaret I'm not yet sure what to make of a surviving James and wether or not Louis lives I really want Mary the Elder to fare better than she did in OTL. But anyways, great update!
Thank you! And I can assure you, whatever her exact fate may be, Mary will be quite happy ITTL.
 
XV: November-December 1514
York, October 1514 (Continued)

At last they arrived at Bishopthorpe. They were greeted just inside the door by Wolsey, who had made sure to arrive ahead of his guests; Catalina was unsure what to make of the man, but Henry certainly liked him and so she was willing to give him a chance.

“Your Grace,” Catalina said, bowing, “I thank you for your hospitality in hosting these celebrations of the peace between England and Scotland.”

“It is my great pleasure, Your Highness,” Wolsey replied, smiling at Catalina, “For it was the King’s wish, and the King’s wish is my pleasure.”

Catalina nodded hesitantly, “Of course, Your Grace.”

Then she and her party were ushered inside to the Great Hall. The Scottish party had already arrived; on a dais, Queen Margaret sat in a chair under a canopy of cloth of gold embroidered with the thistle of Scotland and the Stewart coat of arms, Duke Alexander squalling in her arms. Next to her were two other chairs, under another cloth of gold canopy which was embroidered with the royal arms of England and a Tudor rose.

Catalina turned to her daughter, who stood next to her, “Now remember, Mary, you are going to sit in the chair while your betrothal gift from the Scottish king is presented to you.” Mary said nothing but nodded in understanding, so the two proceeded to the dais. Once Mary and Catalina were seated, the festivities began.

“My lady,” Paniter declared, stepping forward, “It is my honor to present to you with this gift, courtesy of my lord master, King James IV,” Paniter gestured off to the side and a groom entered the hall leading a pure white pony, “This fine horse was bred especially for my lady’s pleasure on the Shetland Isles in the north of our fair kingdom.”

Mary glanced up at her mother, excitement shining in her eyes, “Mama, he is so beautiful...may I go pet him?”

“Of course,” Catalina said, smiling warmly, “Go and greet your steed!”

Mary sprang up from her chair and ran forward, throwing her arms around the pony’s neck and stroking his main.

“His name is El Cid,” Mary declared, “For the great knight!”

“A fine name, my lady,” Paniter said, motioning for the groom from earlier to step forward again, this time carrying a saddle of supple brown leather embossed with gold, red, and green, “And a horse requires a saddle, so my lord thought it appropriate to commission this fine saddle for you as well.”

Mary still engrossed in petting El Cid, Catalina smiled at Paniter, “We thank you, Your Excellency, for these most generous gifts. I am sure Lady Mary will have many hours of enjoyment from them.”

“It was my honor and privilege, Your Grace,” Paniter said, bowing before stepping back.

With the King of Scots’s gift presented, Mary was finally torn away from El Cid, who was led off to the stables, so that the further celebrations could begin.

“I am glad to see that my godson is growing so well,” Catalina said quietly to Queen Margaret as the performers for the first masque began to enter, “He is truly a beautiful little boy.”

Margaret beamed, “He is! James is absolutely besotted with him - truly, I never knew that a man could be so enamoured of a child. The other week, I came across him laying on the floor in Alexander’s nursery playing with him!”

Catalina forced her lips into a smile, “Indeed. Your brother adores his daughters as well and is a most attentive father.”

“I am glad to hear it,” Margaret said with a nod, “I must admit, I admire you for your fortitude in facing all of this.”

“Of course,” Catalina replied, struggling to keep herself from grimacing at the thought of Henry’s alliance with France, “It has not been easy to see my husband abandon my father.”

Margaret gave Catalina a sympathetic look, “I know the feeling well myself. The court in Scotland is crawling with partisans of the French. It never gets easier, watching your husband listen to those who wish harm on the country of your birth. At the very least, you may trust that your Mary will always have my love and support, once she comes to Scotland.”

Catalina could have wept for relief, “Thank you, dear sister.” She and Margaret exchanged a knowing smile and turned their attention to the masque.



Château de Blois, November 1514

Mary sighed as she rested her head against her husband’s chest. The ragged state of his breathing after their intercourse both relieved and alarmed her. Louis was a kind man, a good man. And Mary certainly enjoyed being a queen. But still, it would be a lie to say that Mary did not fantasize about being able to remarry to a younger, more vigorous man.

“What are you thinking about, ma belle Anglaise?” Louis asked in between shaky breaths.

Mary smiled hesitantly, “Just how delightful it is to be in your arms, Your Majesty.”

“Ah,” Louis chuckled, “You amuse me so, Marie. But still, you need not flatter me. I know what I am, and I know what you are.”

“I know what you are as well,” Mary said insistently, propping herself up to look at Louis, “You are a gracious, generous husband and king.”

Louis gave her a look somewhere between hurt and amusement, “Do not mock me, madame. Please, I know you are thinking of something. Why will you not tell me?”

Mary sighed heavily and sat up, racking her brain for something to say, “Fine, my lord. I will tell you. I was thinking that I am so lucky to have a husband who permits me to retain my own attendants. When my brother’s wife came from Spain, much of her household was sent away.”

“You enjoy having your English ladies to wait upon you?” Louis said, raising an eyebrow, “I have had many complaints about them. Particularly Madame Guildford.”

“Mother Guildford?” Mary asked in surprise, “Your courtiers disapprove of her?”

Louis nodded, “They say it is inappropriate for her to behave as she does, being an Englishwoman in the French queen’s household. And I must say, I am not averse to their arguments.”

“So what, you would have me dismiss her? Send her back to England?” Mary frowned, “She has been with me since I was a child!”

“But you were an English princess then,” Louis said flatly, “Now you are a French queen. If you would not dismiss her yourself, then I shall dismiss her.

Mary scowled, “So that is it, then? Your words are empty? You tell me that I am a star plucked from the Heavens and set upon Earth, that you will give me anything my heart desires, that you would rather be struck down than see me unhappy...and yet you would do this to me?”

Louis just sighed, “Marie, please, surely you are not so naïve as to not see why your English ladies, particularly Madame Guildford, cannot remain here. As I said, ma belle, you are Queen of France now. It is best that you be served by French women.”

Mary said nothing in response. Louis was not like her brother, who would’ve bent already to her will. He was older, a widower, more hardened by time and experience. As much as it disappointed her, it was plain that there would be no changing his mind on this matter. Mother Guildford would have to go.

“May I at least have some say in her replacement?” Mary said quietly after a moment, “And perhaps order some new gowns? And brooches?”

Louis gave her a brilliant smile, and for a split second Mary found herself wishing desperately that he were a younger man, “Of course, ma belle. Anything that your heart desires.”



Windsor, December 1514

Henry lifted the bow, steadied his aim, and drew his elbow back. With a whoosh, his arrow was loosed and whizzed its way to the target, hitting just outside of the center.

“A brilliant shot, Your Majesty,” Henry Courtenay, earl of Devon, Henry’s younger cousin and frequent companion, declared, “I dare say that I will be hard pressed to match it.”

“Do your worst,” Henry said with a wicked grin.

Courtenay smirked, “Are you sure, my lord? We wouldn’t want a repeat of last week’s tennis ma-”

Courtenay’s joshing of his king was interrupted by the sudden arrival of a herald in the Queen’s livery. Both Henry and his cousin grew stony faced as the man knelt, for there was no doubt in either of their minds that the man brought news that the Queen had finally given birth.

“Your Majesty,” the herald began, “I must inform you that Her Grace the Queen has been delivered of a healthy baby girl.”

Henry gulped, “Thank you, good man. Please, return to Her Grace and let her know that I will be to see her soon.”

The herald nodded in understanding and left. Henry turned to Courtenay and groaned.

“Another daughter! God’s teeth, what have I done to deserve this!” he scowled.

Courtenay sighed, “Your Majesty, I know things may seem bleak at the moment, but I would not worry over it. You and Her Grace are both young and healthy enough for further children. You may have four daughters now, but I guarantee that Her Grace will yet be able to give you a son.”

Henry huffed, “For England’s sake, I hope that you are right.”

“I am,” Courtenay said breezily, “You know our mutual grandsire King Edward, though he had seven daughters, still had three sons. And had not the vile King Richard been around, our uncles would have grown to manhood. What is to say that you and Queen Katherine may not be the same?”

“I suppose,” Henry ventured, “But still, do you not think that we ought to have a son by now?”

Courtenay took a deep breath before answering, “Of course, Your Majesty. But it seems that God has willed it otherwise. That does not mean that you and Her Grace will not have a son some time in the future.”

Henry made a noise of distaste, “You have not much to say on this subject, do you? Well, I suppose there is not much more to be said. It is another daughter this time, but a son will surely follow.”
 
Last edited:
Ooh I love the new chapter, it is nice to see that they are trying to heal the wounds between England and Scotland. Poor Mary though, forced to dismiss her favorite ladies to appease the French..
 
Top