They have no way to mount it in a turret at this point, nor a tank design large enough to take it.
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
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Yeah that doesn't happen until the Type 3 which even if built will probably be held back for homeland defence as it was OTL. The type 4 and 5 designs could probably also stand against the allies but those never got beyond prototype stage.
Broadly by 1941 its to late to complete the development cycle before nukes call the game.
marathag
Banned
They were worki
This would have been an awesome tank in 1942
1945, not so much
They were working on it, slowly, the Type 4
This would have been an awesome tank in 1942
1945, not so much
Like I said to little to late.. Japan would have to decide in 1938 at the latest that they might be facing something Panzer IV grade or stronger and need to start developing a counter there and then. Instead OTL happen and unless your Oarai's tankery team beating the allies tanks just isn't happening. (Even then they mostly relied on non-Japanese tanks).
Well they might not do better, But I suspect something equivaltent to the Type 3 will come out a little bit sooner this time around. Not that it will do them any good mind, by the time their Type 3 is out, the British will have the Victor in production.
Seconding this. Given the pace of WWII-era Tank/Tank Gun development, the best time to start designing your next Tank/Tank Gun is once you're back from the long weekend you took to celebrate finishing the design work on your current tank.
Waiting until you've encountered a Sherman to start designing your Sherman counter is far, far too late.
Red queen syndrome, can't catch up no matter how fast they run. Also the 3 is unlikely to appear before late 1943 even working at warp 8. By then any major combat that tanks are much use for (not holding tiny islands) will be over so as OTL they'll probably keep most for home defense with perhaps a few to Manchuria.
Might slow Zhukov by an hour or so I guess?
Speaking of, with much less demand for the M3 Grant, will we see the Sherman sooner ITTL do you think?
Changes aren't that involved and if they not building to many M3's I guess they can tool up quicker?
marathag
Banned
I think so, ITTL the M3 Lee/Grant would be built in smaller numbers, as a true interim, not thousands made and LL'ed to the Brits and Soviets
OTL the British were unhappy with the M3 Lee, and were able to talk the US into the minor mod of the Grant, and get the Canadians to us the M3 Hull, and do the Ram
Without being so tank desperate, they may demand something Ram like from US Factories
I don't see this TL being any different in the British desiring the M3 Stuart, possible with different turret, but minor changes vs the redo demanded for the M3 Medium
I doubt that the British are going to be anywhere near as enamoured with US tanks ITTL as they were in OTL.
In OTL it took the 75mm proving itself in combat as a dual purpose gun to get the British to seriously look at it. That is unlikely to happen here. Britain is not only making far more tanks they are far more capable and aren't being lost as ofter. The overall situation for Britain tank wise, in North Africa at least, is a lot healthier. In North Africa is the key here as right now this is Britain's front line. Other theatres will get less weight than what is happening in Libya.
Add to that the fact the 2pdr is starting to struggle and the British have the 6pdr on the way means anything with a main gun less impressive than the 6pdr is not going to be considered for North Africa. At the end of the day the main issue is logistics so why add something other than the Valiant to the supply chain when you don't need too.
Now the main problem the British tanks have is the lack of a dual purpose gun but that is unlikely enough to get the US tanks into front line North African service. The 6pdr in all likelihood looks more than good enough on that front in British eyes. The question will again be asked why introduce more strain onto the logistics in North Africa than necessary?
That, to my mind anyway means that ITTL the M3 Grant won't be a thing. The M3 won't be seen as offering Britain enough, even if given British equipment like the 2pdr, to be kept in production. That likely does for any potential Ram type tank as well, the time taken to modify the tank and get it into production probably gets you to the same sort of timeframe as the Victor entering service. The question then becomes what does a Ram give you that a Valiant or Victor doesn't? Particularly when the US is likely producing more M4's than it knows what to do with at this point. If you need a second line tank as Britain, use a Sherman.
The Stuart with a 2pdr however could well be a thing. That is one area Britain is still lacking unless they get Armoured Car production ramped up enough but even then a tracked vehicle is still useful. The question is will the increased British confidence lead to less acceptance of vehicles that don't fit the doctrine. By this point Britain has already started to move away from tracked reconnaissance vehicles. I forget if something like the Daimler Armoured Car is under development ITTL.
Unless due to Sir John Valentine surviving the cooling problems of the Mk VII Tetrarch light tank have been avoided. Now of course Sir John can't over see every vehicle Vickers produces but his presence does free up other designers to do the job.
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marathag
Banned
It was still an 8 ton tank with 14mm armor on the front, 2pdr and a BESA
Stuart was 16 tons, with 50mm armor on the front, and 3 .30s
Easily upgraded to the 38mm of the Mk VIII Harry Hopkins light tank. Light tanks aren't meant to fight anyway, their job is scouting and the Vickers Mk VII and Mk VIII are a lot easier to hide being much shorter than the Honey.
Later in WW2 an armoured force was stood up in Tito’s partisan force comprising Stuart tanks and AEC Armoured Cars.
The M3s were used for infantry support while the AEC with its 6 pounder was used to bully the local beutepanzer such as T34s and the like.
I can see the Lees and Stuart’s still being appreciated ITTL with the Lee being used more like a STUG.
The 100 or so Stuart’s that arrived in Rangoon just after the defeat of the 17th Indian Division pretty much prevented disaster as they were powerful enough to defeat roadblocks and the Japanese struggled to handle them with the light weapons on hand.
Had they arrived a month earlier!
The M3s were used for infantry support while the AEC with its 6 pounder was used to bully the local beutepanzer such as T34s and the like.
I can see the Lees and Stuart’s still being appreciated ITTL with the Lee being used more like a STUG.
The 100 or so Stuart’s that arrived in Rangoon just after the defeat of the 17th Indian Division pretty much prevented disaster as they were powerful enough to defeat roadblocks and the Japanese struggled to handle them with the light weapons on hand.
Had they arrived a month earlier!
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The M3's will be very popular out east, of that I have no doubt. The issue is that the Far East will very definitely be considered secondary so no matter how many favourable reports get sent back about them they won't be given the same weight as reports from Europe.
From the looks of things, the British establishment is much more on the ball as a whole due to at least slowing down if not stopping the early-war fall of dominoes. With three corps-level formations fighting two (I believe?), of which only one is a peer in materiel and overall training, they need either a massive blunder or a total lack of air assets to not convincingly win.
Those Australian veterans of the hard-fought retreat in Greece will in all probability give the Japanese a very unpleasant welcome and teach their greener peers the ropes while doing so. If they actually do get Matildas, I can't see the Japanese come close to threatening Kuala Lumpur, never mind Singapore.
Those Australian veterans of the hard-fought retreat in Greece will in all probability give the Japanese a very unpleasant welcome and teach their greener peers the ropes while doing so. If they actually do get Matildas, I can't see the Japanese come close to threatening Kuala Lumpur, never mind Singapore.
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