Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[Derek Pullem]

Many made their real money from commercial enterprises or financial investments. Even Lord Grantham in Downton Abbey had an asset portfolio to fund the family and house - and when he lost a lot of money from unwise speculations the Estate needed a bailout from Matthew Crawley.

First time I think I have seen Downton Abbey used a historical source?! The money came from the land which was farmed by tenants. The investments were a get rich quick alternative to the returns from the land.

 

[Sooty]

PNM1, Has asked an interesting question, to which I believe the answer is very complex. Let’s start with, could the Germans cut off all food imports, with their submarine campaign, to which the answer is no. Even during the worst time, for every convoy that suffered losses, two or more sailed in to port without suffering any. And I doubt that German can prevent imports from Southern Ireland, or British exports to Southern Ireland. Plus most people who look at Britain’s war time rationing scheme, look at what was rationed, the trick is to look at what wasn’t. One simple example, cheese was rationed, everyone knows that, but while it was it also wasn’t. Hard cows milk cheese was rationed, but soft goats or sheep’s milk cheese wasn’t, but as only a small number of people eat soft cheese, it doesn’t matter. Tea, black tea was strictly rationed, green tea, fruit teas weren’t, nor was fresh coffee. As I said it’s complex, and you have to think hard, meat was rationed, Beef, Veal. Pork, Lamb and Mutton, but Poultry, Wildfowl, Waterfowl, Game and Offal weren’t, see complex.

The British diet if forced to rely on internal food production, limited imports from Southern Ireland, and fishing. The two basics will as others have pointed out be bread and potatoes, along with turnips, swedes, cabbage and peas. What little meat will be pork, and in the countryside game and wildfowl, rabbit/pigeon, however the pork will not be fresh, it will have been cured into bacon and ham. Some foods that only the poorest eat, horses, tripe, will be seen on more tables, especially those of the middle class and rich. Fish, that the fishermen would have thrown back or only used for cat food, will be eaten, especially by the poor. The biggest change will be the bread, which will not be the National Loaf, but something very different. Britain is a large exporter of grain, wheat, but British wheat is hard, unlike imports which are soft, modern bread is made from soft wheat, as was British war time bread. What happened during the war was the rules about what flour could be used changed, and supplements were added to the flour. The loaf produced if Britain had been forced to rely on its own grain production, would have been gray, dense and tasteless. Which is very much what the diet would have been, no margarine, at the time made from imported whale oil. Fruit, apples pears and plums, with a very limited amount of soft fruit, mostly home grown, for those who have the land, and must not forget rhubarb. There would be salt, but no pepper or spices, and very few herbs. So yes Britain could feed itself, but it would have been tough, very dull and bloody boring.

RR.

Don't forget foraging!
Blackberry's, strawberry's, elderberry's, etc!
https://www.nationalgeographic.co.u...ing-calendar-what-to-pick-and-where-in-the-uk

 

[ArtosStark]

Armoured Archives Youtube channel is running again, which is pretty cool. This video popped up yesterday, and might be of interest as IIRC, the A22 and A23 have not had their final fate determined yet:

EDIT: Link is not working. You can search Youtube for Armoured Archives A23 or try copy pasting this in without the spaces ( https:// www. youtube. com/ watch?v= Iq5tvA90OPc&list= TLPQMTYwODIwMjGNbLf4IxCP zg&index=2 )

 

[allanpcameron]

1 May 1941. El Agheila, Libya.

Long before dawn the British 16th Brigade (1st Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, 2nd Bn Leicestershire Regiment, 2nd Bn Queens Royal Regiment) accompanied by two Regiments of Valiant I* tanks from 2nd Royal Gloucestershire Hussars (RGH), & 4th Sharpshooters, County of London Yeomanry (CLY), set off westwards. Above the British advance, during daylight, the RAF would provide a standing patrol over the advance of one squadron of Hurricanes. Two squadrons of Blenheims were available for bombing raids in support of the advance, while a squadron of Marylands were providing long range reconnaissance.

At the same time the 3rd Indian Motor Brigade (2nd Lancers (Gardner's Horse), 11th Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry (Frontier Force), 18th King Edward's Own Cavalry), with the tanks of 3rd CLY set off from their positions inland through the desert to outflank any Italian or German defensive position, with the intention of approaching the German and Italian positions at Nofilia from the south and rear.

The 11th Hussars, XIII Corps’ reconnaissance regiment, had noted that the first thirty miles to Ras El Ali would be straightforward. After the initial German reconnaissance probes in March, O’Connor had pulled his forward units back to concentrate and train for the upcoming attack. The British reconnaissance efforts had identified that there was an Italian unit deployed at Ras El Ali in the fairly narrow strip between the sea and the desert escarpment. This was expected to be the first resistance that the British forces would encounter.

Because of the side ranging reconnaissance patrols of both the Italian and Germans, it hadn’t been possible to build up a forward stores area, as had been done before the battle of Sidi Barani. Just behind both British columns, the RASC and RAOC had loaded up three days’ worth of supplies which would be brought up and would create two Field Supply Depots, allowing the main columns to keep advancing on Nofilia.

The German commander, Irwin Rommel, had originally planned on a quick attack as soon as he could, but discovering that the British weren’t as weak as he had been led to believe, he had been forced to wait for the whole of 15th Panzer Division to arrive at Tripoli. Once it was fully prepared, then that, with the German 5th Light Division, supported by the two Italian Armoured Divisions (Ariete and Trieste), would provide Rommel with a potent force to knock the British out of Libya. General Paulus had been sent from Berlin to try to make sure that the probing attacks that Rommel had made in March, which had led to quite a lot of casualties, wouldn’t be repeated. Instead, the German forces were primarily meant to support the Italians and prevent the loss of Italian North Africa. Sending Rommel, whose 7th Panzer Division had been badly handled by the British at Arras, because, it was believed, he had taken too much of a risk, had always been a gamble by Hitler. But Hitler liked and admired Rommel and, while the whole of energy of the German forces were looking towards the Soviet Union; giving Rommel the chance to harry the British in North Africa appealed to the Fuhrer.

The Royal Navy had only managed to intercept one of the convoys conveying the 15th Panzer Division across the Mediterranean, and so while it had lost some of its men, and it wasn’t yet completely formed, but from Rommel’s point of view, it was now partially operational. While the Italians had fortified their main position at Sirte, and had outposts at Nofilia and Ras El Ali, Rommel had been preparing to take on the British, now that he was in a favourable position. As far as his intelligence people had been able to discern, the British had only two Divisions holding their positions at El Agheila, and only one Brigade of tanks. Therefore, he had been concentrating his forces around Sirte.

When news broke that the British were advancing, and that they were attacking Ras El Ali in force, Rommel immediately saw an opportunity to hit the British when they weren’t in pre-prepared positions, with minefields and artillery protecting them. Therefore, he ordered General Streich, commander of 5th Light Division, to advance inland towards Nofilia. The Ariete Division would also move forward to Nofilia, along the coast road, while the 15th Panzer Division and the Trieste Division would prepare to move to follow up any potential opportunity to exploit any success.

At Ras El Ali there was an Italian Bersaglieri force, reinforced by 47mm anti-tank guns. As the first companies of 1st Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, with a squadron of 2nd RGH in support approached the Italian positions it became clear that the Italians weren’t giving up easily, the 8th Field Regiment RA deployed to support the advance. The Italians put up a stiff fight, knocking out eight tanks and causing the Argylls many casualties. By mid-afternoon, the Italian resistance had been overcome, and the British began advancing, with the Leicestershires and 4th CLY taking the lead.

An air battle had also been raging above the British column as the RAF attempted to keep the Luftwaffe off the strung-out vehicles. For much of the day the fight was evenly balanced, but the Hurricanes were finding it difficult to get among the German bombers as they were often in a fight to the death with the Bf109s. The one consolation was that the 3rd Indian Brigade’s advance inland wasn’t discovered by German reconnaissance, so the RAF only had to concentrate on defending one column.

The Italians had placed a number of units strung out along the coastal road, and these caused further delays to the British advance, though none as steadfast as that at Ras El Ali. By the evening the leading British units had defeated an Italian force at the Wadi Matratin, some thirty miles from Nofilia. General Michael Gambier-Parry, as OC 2nd Armoured Division was in command of Operation Brevity. With the information available to him he decided to halt the advance for the night, allowing the men and machines to be rested and refreshed. He expected that the main battle would take place either the next day, or the day after. Communication between the two columns had been spotty during the day, but eventually Brigadier Edward Vaughan, commanding the Motor Brigade was informed of the halt, and decided to hold his own positions to the south east Nofilia, so that the two columns could attack simultaneously from two directions. The information brought back from the RAF Marylands that two large columns of vehicles, including tanks, were approaching Nofilia from the west wasn’t passed on to Gambier-Parry until the next morning.

 

[allanpcameron]

Sorry for using Operation Brevity as the codename for this, but there are parallels between the OTL and TTL operations.
Allan

 

[MattII]

Here's hoping this version of Brevity goes better than OTL.

 

[yulzari]

PNM1, Has asked an interesting question, to which I believe the answer is very complex. Let’s start with, could the Germans cut off all food imports, with their submarine campaign, to which the answer is no. Even during the worst time, for every convoy that suffered losses, two or more sailed in to port without suffering any. And I doubt that German can prevent imports from Southern Ireland, or British exports to Southern Ireland. Plus most people who look at Britain’s war time rationing scheme, look at what was rationed, the trick is to look at what wasn’t. One simple example, cheese was rationed, everyone knows that, but while it was it also wasn’t. Hard cows milk cheese was rationed, but soft goats or sheep’s milk cheese wasn’t, but as only a small number of people eat soft cheese, it doesn’t matter. Tea, black tea was strictly rationed, green tea, fruit teas weren’t, nor was fresh coffee. As I said it’s complex, and you have to think hard, meat was rationed, Beef, Veal. Pork, Lamb and Mutton, but Poultry, Wildfowl, Waterfowl, Game and Offal weren’t, see complex.

The British diet if forced to rely on internal food production, limited imports from Southern Ireland, and fishing. The two basics will as others have pointed out be bread and potatoes, along with turnips, swedes, cabbage and peas. What little meat will be pork, and in the countryside game and wildfowl, rabbit/pigeon, however the pork will not be fresh, it will have been cured into bacon and ham. Some foods that only the poorest eat, horses, tripe, will be seen on more tables, especially those of the middle class and rich. Fish, that the fishermen would have thrown back or only used for cat food, will be eaten, especially by the poor. The biggest change will be the bread, which will not be the National Loaf, but something very different. Britain is a large exporter of grain, wheat, but British wheat is hard, unlike imports which are soft, modern bread is made from soft wheat, as was British war time bread. What happened during the war was the rules about what flour could be used changed, and supplements were added to the flour. The loaf produced if Britain had been forced to rely on its own grain production, would have been gray, dense and tasteless. Which is very much what the diet would have been, no margarine, at the time made from imported whale oil. Fruit, apples pears and plums, with a very limited amount of soft fruit, mostly home grown, for those who have the land, and must not forget rhubarb. There would be salt, but no pepper or spices, and very few herbs. So yes Britain could feed itself, but it would have been tough, very dull and bloody boring.

RR.

Welcome to the diet that fed most Britons since time immemorial.

 

[Geordie]

Looks like there's going to be an almighty tussle at Nofilia. That overnight halt could end up being seen as a big missed opportunity for the British. If they do get pushed back, I do hope that the Field Supply Depots are kept out of Rommel's hands.

 

[Derek Pullem]

That looks like a very unpleasant welcoming committee for Wavell's men. Even though half of them are Italians that's the best part of four divisions to face off against two brigades and 3 tank regiments or about 4:1 odds (at least 3:1). Why did Wavell go forward with such comparatively weak forces when he knows German forces are in theatre?

 

[pjmidd]

That looks like a very unpleasant welcoming committee for Wavell's men. Even though half of them are Italians that's the best part of four divisions to face off against two brigades and 3 tank regiments or about 4:1 odds (at least 3:1). Why did Wavell go forward with such comparatively weak forces when he knows German forces are in theatre?

Think you are overcounting the Axis forces, OTL 5th only had 25 Panzer Ib, 45 Panzer II, 75 Panzer III and 20 Panzer IV in Africa, even in the unlikely event all were operational and deployed. The Italian divisions the best armour they have are M13/40 with lots of tankettes ( and Ariete has been rebuilt after being gutted in 1940 )

 

[Derek Pullem]

Think you are overcounting the Axis forces, OTL 5th only had 25 Panzer Ib, 45 Panzer II, 75 Panzer III and 20 Panzer IV in Africa, even in the unlikely event all were operational and deployed. The Italian divisions the best armour they have are M13/40 with lots of tankettes ( and Ariete has been rebuilt after being gutted in 1940 )

Somewhat true (although not convinced the British tank regiments will be full strength either) but it looks like the British will be coming on to Rommels guns at Nofilia which is about as favourable position as he could ask for. A Divisional attack is too small to win for the British and too large a force to lose

 

[Ramp-Rat]

yulzari, sorry but no, this wasn’t the diet that had fed Britons since Time Immemorial, you would need to cut out that South American import, potatoes, and subtitle more grains, including rye and barley, plus more legumes such as beans. As for the present Operation Brevity, in comparison to the Operation Brevity of OTL, there are a number of differences. This one is taking place much much further to the West, and the British are in a better place, there command structure is much better, and their equipment much improved over that of OTL. Rommel has one chance to seriously break up the British advance, and put the British on the back foot, if he gets it wrong, then he and the Italians are facing a major disaster.
RR.

 

[wietze]

little nitpick

The German commander, Irwin Rommel

his name is Erwin Rommel

 

[Geordie]

On the subject of diet, and different types of wheat, it was the importing of flour to the Netherlands during the hunger winter of '44-'45 that led to coeliac disease being finally understood. It's a complaint that has been mentioned since classical times, but nobody was definitely sure what caused it. At least one 19th century physician reckoned it could be cured by a diet of only bread!

It was a Doctor Willem Dicke in the Hague who realised that (in complete contrast to the rest of the patients) the coeliac children in his care had improved when they were subsisting on veg, before worsening when allied shipments of flour became available. This was the breakthrough that led to gluten-free diets being formulated.

Not necessarily germane to the current discussion, but an interesting aside (especially for those of us who suffer from the complaint).

 

[Orry]

yulzari, sorry but no, this wasn’t the diet that had fed Britons since Time Immemorial, you would need to cut out that South American import, potatoes, and subtitle more grains, including rye and barley, plus more legumes such as beans. As for the present Operation Brevity, in comparison to the Operation Brevity of OTL, there are a number of differences. This one is taking place much much further to the West, and the British are in a better place, there command structure is much better, and their equipment much improved over that of OTL. Rommel has one chance to seriously break up the British advance, and put the British on the back foot, if he gets it wrong, then he and the Italians are facing a major disaster.
RR.

The Germans have not spotted the left hook.......

So maybe the frontal attack goes badly but them the second attack catches the axis of guard.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

With any luck Rommel will as usual be leading from as close to front as he can manage, get too far forward and get himself captured.

 

[CB13]

Hi Alan, Is there any chance you could elaborate on the British Strategic view of this? What they see as the opportunity to try to advance now as opposed to let the Germans and Italians come to them and then blunt themselves on their existing entrenched (and well-supplied) positions? Thanks so much! Matthew, 🍻

 

[Asian Jumbo]

Many made their real money from commercial enterprises or financial investments. Even Lord Grantham in Downton Abbey had an asset portfolio to fund the family and house - and when he lost a lot of money from unwise speculations the Estate needed a bailout from Matthew Crawley.

Fair enough and no doubt correct. Doesn’t mean all the land was normally left to lie fallow or used only for polo and pheasant coverts which appeared to be the implication. It was an important asset and generally worked accordingly
(but that’s enough about early 20c land use!)

 

[Cryhavoc101]

PS, I think that some of the working class would have been severely pissed of if Anfield, the Den , the Cop etc had been dug up for food production.

Come on now the war never got that bad (shudders at the thought)

 

[Ginggwar]

Just saw this photo posted on my Regiments OCA page, pack change on a crusader in 1943 - don’t think I have ever seen that set up with a jib and pulley on the back of a truck.