Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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Hm, if the Germans don't attempt to seize Crete via air landing, they should still have those troops available for deployment in the USSR. Not sure how much of a difference that would make, but it should be some.
There would be some butterflies for the luftwaffe as well . If the invasion of Crete doesn't take place . A significant number of Junkers JU 52 ' s were lost in the battle along with their pilots. The majority of these pilots were highly experienced men who also doubled as instructors for the Luftwaffe.

The were a priceless asset that Germany could ill afford to lose .
Their survival may well improve the quality of Luftwaffe pilot training in the latter stages of the war .
 
and would not having crete change the decisions the germans would make in north-africa (whether it is actually worth the hassle, instead concentrate on barbarossa)
 
I've been playing with the above update for the past week. Again, I'm a bit worried about making things go too well for the British. My thinking is that it is a smaller version of Arnhem, a regiment of paratroops being dropped among two Regiments of tanks and four battalions of infantry.
Allan
Seemes fairly realistic to me. The Luftwaffle coomanders were among the most ideologically-driven and optimistic nazis, so gambling a huge chunk of their paratroopers in a coup de main which was dependent on air attacks rendering the enemy combat ineffective seems like something they might do.
 
Seemes fairly realistic to me. The Luftwaffle coomanders were among the most ideologically-driven and optimistic nazis, so gambling a huge chunk of their paratroopers in a coup de main which was dependent on air attacks rendering the enemy combat ineffective seems like something they might do.
Especially as at this point they really don't want to admit their usual tricks work poorly on a dug in, prepared and modern force. The Luftwaffe has no real saturation attack capabilities and the Brits are already mastering disguise and misdirection. As such alot of the fairly small bomb loads will hit the wrong place, the enemy survives and guns down the paratroopers.

It also doesn't help that you need surprise to make a smallish air inserted force viable (as happened in Western Europe). Without it and with the enemy wise to you its target practice time.

Its no shock that when the WAllies copied the trick at D-Day they sent in overwhelming numbers and mostly at night with backup only a few hours away. In contrast the ones stuck on the wrong side of the bridge never could have got backup before being wiped out. The ones on the other side might have but got overwhelmed first.
 
Hm, if the Germans don't attempt to seize Crete via air landing, they should still have those troops available for deployment in the USSR. Not sure how much of a difference that would make, but it should be some.

Per a previous note, using them through the Baltics would be a really interesting butterfly....
 
One thing to perhaps consider is that we look at this and we see the improvements over our timeline... but the Germans here still see victories over the British, costly but not crippling.
The Nazi ideology, their ego's, their prospective of other armies and what they can achieve over them has not changed.
All those driver's for a shoe string on the bounce attack on Crete are still their, and possibly after such a mediocre showing by Georing's toy units he may push for more of his chance in the sun ?
The Germans are used to gambling high stake victories and the plan coming together......thats not changed so far....i dont see why it would from their view of this timeline
 
One thing to perhaps consider is that we look at this and we see the improvements over our timeline... but the Germans here still see victories over the British, costly but not crippling.
The Nazi ideology, their ego's, their prospective of other armies and what they can achieve over them has not changed.
The British gave them trouble in France, and are doing so here. In France they were out-manoeuvred, and here they're out-gunned, and yet, despite this, the British have given good accounts of themselves.

All those driver's for a shoe string on the bounce attack on Crete are still their, and possibly after such a mediocre showing by Georing's toy units he may push for more of his chance in the sun ?
The British position on Crete is far stronger than OTL, and they'll have even less time to do it before Barbarossa kicks off. The Germans are at least three days late getting to Athens. And now the paratroopers have been mauled trying to force a crossing of the Corinth Canal.

The Germans are used to gambling high stake victories and the plan coming together......thats not changed so far....i dont see why it would from their view of this timeline
Except it sort of has, because Greece so far has been a meat-grinder, not a walk-over.
 
Have to wonder if any German Officers who look at the whole Greek Campaign closely will advise against any adventures in Crete thpugh given a large number of British personnel and a good chunk of their equipment made it off along with intact greek formations.

Also given also how their own forces performed against British Forces in particular the tanks as well they are going to assume they had time to move some armour to the island. Any operation they launch will need to take this into account.
 
Have to wonder if any German Officers who look at the whole Greek Campaign closely will advise against any adventures in Crete thpugh given a large number of British personnel and a good chunk of their equipment made it off along with intact greek formations.

Also given also how their own forces performed against British Forces in particular the tanks as well they are going to assume they had time to move some armour to the island. Any operation they launch will need to take this into account.
Some Greek formations made it out. I think, by design, other scattered to begin resistance movements.
 
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I said intact formation I never said they evacuate more.
Apologies. Still, there's a difference between a self-scattered formation, and a broken one on the run. The former will likely see each man returning home with his rifle, some ammunition, and maybe some other bits and pieces, ready to make the Germans' lives hell.
 
As mentioned before, it seems bloody to us and a Allied success only with hindsight. Without hindsight it simply seems that the British were kicked off the continent in a 3-week campaign. The whole campaign happened so that the British won't set up airbases to bomb Ploesti. Now that the whole mainland fell relatively quickly and with ight casualties, Crete is very tempting. Especially since they don't need the 12th Army, just 3 divisions.

Whether the Battle of Crete takes place, I think is mostly a Luftwaffe issue. Can they establish themselves quickly enough to use VIII. Fliegerkorps before it is sent north for Barbarossa? Will they go ahead with just the 250 aircraft of X. Fliegerkorps and whatever the Regia Aeronautica can cough up?

If anything, the Corinth Canal can show that they simply used inadequate forces and there was no airfield nearby to capture and use to transport reinforcements. They can change their OTL plans for Crete: instead of scatter a single regiment to each airfield, they can double down: Use the remaining 2 regiments of the 7th Paratrooper to seize a single airfield (Maleme or Heraklion) and then transport there the 22nd Airlanding Division with the 5th Mountain behind. I believe they can seize that single airfield and transport the 22nd.

Not that it will matter: Crete cannot fall in TTL. The Germans will just lose a whole corps equivalent. The Commonwealth are in better shape with at least some heavy equipment. There are tanks with guns (and not just machine guns) that are in working order. There are 20,000 angry Cretan veterans.
 
They were there and unusually, they were SS units. Yes, the SS had a Parachute unit in Russia...
There was a recent video on YT on SS paratroopers who tried to kill Tito and his advisors (including Churchills Son)

Mission was a bit of a cluster (and obviously they failed)

 
As mentioned before, it seems bloody to us and a Allied success only with hindsight. Without hindsight it simply seems that the British were kicked off the continent in a 3-week campaign. The whole campaign happened so that the British won't set up airbases to bomb Ploesti. Now that the whole mainland fell relatively quickly and with ight casualties, Crete is very tempting. Especially since they don't need the 12th Army, just 3 divisions.
Mm, despite a numerical disadvantage, and clearly inadequate gear (which they'll know from picking over the remains of the tanks), the British and Greeks put up a stiff resistance. Plus, if their intel is any good they'll know at least a portion of the tanks on Crete are Matilda Is, you know, the same kind of tanks that gave them so much trouble at Arras and Calais. There's also the question of whether there's any operable airfields left in Greece. The allies thus far have been pretty good at leaving the airfields in no condition to operate from, so it might not be possible to have them ready in time to actually launch such an attack before Barbarossa starts.

Whether the Battle of Crete takes place, I think is mostly a Luftwaffe issue. Can they establish themselves quickly enough to use VIII. Fliegerkorps before it is sent north for Barbarossa? Will they go ahead with just the 250 aircraft of X. Fliegerkorps and whatever the Regia Aeronautica can cough up?

If anything, the Corinth Canal can show that they simply used inadequate forces and there was no airfield nearby to capture and use to transport reinforcements. They can change their OTL plans for Crete: instead of scatter a single regiment to each airfield, they can double down: Use the remaining 2 regiments of the 7th Paratrooper to seize a single airfield (Maleme or Heraklion) and then transport there the 22nd Airlanding Division with the 5th Mountain behind. I believe they can seize that single airfield and transport the 22nd.
No, it showed what happened when paratroopers go up against infantry in dug-in positions with tank support. Given the mauling they took (and we don't know how many will actually get back from this Corinth attack, I suspect most will either end up as PoWs or corpses.
 
Mm, despite a numerical disadvantage, and clearly inadequate gear (which they'll know from picking over the remains of the tanks), the British and Greeks put up a stiff resistance. Plus, if their intel is any good they'll know at least a portion of the tanks on Crete are Matilda Is,
Their intel was so good they thought the locals would be neutral or friendly to them...
 
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