Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[Atrophied]

Yeah , if the brits dont get distracted by greece then you should be able to kick the italians out of north africa in early 41 even with rommel helping them. It could also trigger more or atleast better reinforcements on the air contingent aswell if north africa isnt distracting the brits .This also applies to the new zealand divison .

Or if not quick enough then maybe atleast sent as reinforcements to burma when singapore falls ? And have burma be alot bigger campaign compared to otl ?

In otl there were like 40k greeks evacuated with the brits but they werent formed up units was the issue basicly like british troops after dunkirk. If brits dont get involved they could try to evacute more or atleast a similar amount wich would make for atleast 2 divisons maybe 3 and this is something the americans could gear with lend lease . Wich would help in the italian invasion i think altough it could also invite a balkans adventure when italy surrenders since i think hitler might pawn off occupying greece to them for more troops in the east if crete isnt available to them is my logic.

 

[MattII]

The T16 was the American version of a Lloyd carrier. The Windsor was an armoured, better built version of the T16. The Lloyd carrier was unarmoured. The T16 leaked apparently because the welding was insufficient. The Lloyd, the T16 and the Windsor was longer than a Universal/Bren/Scout carrier and featured two full sets of Horstman suspension units, per side.

Actually, the Loyd did have armour fitted to the troop-carrier variants. Not a lot to be sure, just 7mm, but potentially enough to deflect some rifle fire. In addition, bothe T16 and the Windsor were independent developments on the same track as the Loyd, but with no actual relation.

Even a better Performance in North Africa changes the build up to Ark Royal's sinking. If the Army is doing well then some of the operations carried out in May and June and post sinking the Bismark won't happen. There also won't be the pressure to rush convoy's through the Med from Gibraltar. That allows the safer passage round Africa and up to Suez to be used, you then are under air cover most of the way to Malta from Egypt, Cyprus, Crete and all North Arica in British hand's which may well be a lot. In a scenario like this you don't need to use Ark Royal to cover convoys from Gibraltar so no sinking.

I also wonder, if the British are doing better in North Africa in December, would the British likely be as inclined to run Operation Excess? Preventing HMS Illustrious from spending six months in dock for repairs would help too.

Yeah , if the brits dont get distracted by greece then you should be able to kick the italians out of north africa in early 41 even with rommel helping them. It could also trigger more or atleast better reinforcements on the air contingent aswell if north africa isnt distracting the brits .This also applies to the new zealand divison .

We'll see. I do think it's likely that towards the end of a campaign there'll be a bit of a drawdown, as only those units with enough motor transport will still be in use, which may mean being able to deploy the others elsewhere.

Or if not quick enough then maybe atleast sent as reinforcements to burma when singapore falls ? And have burma be alot bigger campaign compared to otl ?

The general consensus seems to be that there's little to be done about Malaya/Singapore, but Burma, yeah, I could see that. One big point, even before looking at equipment, is that if North Africa goes as predicted with a mad charge through Cyrenaica, and a bite-and-hold strategy later, Wavell is likely to remain in command in the Middle East, leaving Auchinleck in command in India during the early stages of Burma, which, given his later performance, is IMO going to help significantly.

 

[Sam R.]

I was stunned when I realised that he was one of the 12 RAF Pilots over Athens who took on about 150 German planes on 20th April 1941

Whats very sobering is Pat Prattle then one of the RAFs best Hurricane Aces was one of 4 RAF pilots killed that day while Dahl, a relatively green pilot (his first experience in Hurricane was flying it to Greece to join 80 Sqn) survived.

All this despite having been quite badly hurt in an earlier crash that should have grounded him.

Dahl has a significant number of other strikes against him, such as the coital fascination with non-adults [paedophillia]] which is present in his own development autobiograpically and thematically present in his works. He does present one of the best literary depictions of the "pilots heaven," I've read in his otherwise pathetic autobiograpical works for adults. His works for children, however, are cautionary tales which every child capable should read to prepare them against predatory adults.

He will always live with a glitterous world of awareness of abusiveness. He seems to be attuned to conflict and fixatedon youth.

 

[allanpcameron]

30 November 1940. Braco, Scotland.

The Officers of 7th Bn Royal Tank Regiment, heroes of Arras, attended a dance in the village hall on their final night in Perthshire. The NCOs in their Mess and Other Ranks in their barracks were also celebrating the end of the training regime.

The remnants of the Fourth and the Seventh Battalions RTR had crossed the Channel in late May and early June, mostly on the “Mona’s Isle” or “King Orry”, Isle-of-Man steam packets. The latter had been shelled from the shore and strafed by up to 6 Messerschmitt fighters, the men of the First Army Tank Brigade suffered 23 killed and almost double that wounded on their way home.

Back in England, the men of both Battalions had re-organised at Twesledown near Aldershot. Many of the experienced tank commanders were promoted, more were transferred to other RTR Battalions to share their experience with the still-forming units. A few NCOs had been selected to attend Sandhurst and were nearing the completion of their officer training, more had been attached to Bovington as instructors.

A lot of new men had been integrated into the Battalion, and it had taken what seemed an age to find them 52 brand new tanks Infantry Tank Mark II (Matilda IIs). Some had hoped for the new Vickers Valiant Infantry Tank Mark III, but the Mark II had served them well in France, and they were just glad to any kind of tank. The Battalion been brought up to Scotland, where there was space for exercises, to complete their training.

Those who followed the news and reports from their sister Battalions wondered what would happen to them now. The Greeks were giving the Italians a good kicking in Albania, and the build-up of the British forces in Egypt was getting to the point where they might be able to go on the offensive. The Home Forces were also beginning to look a bit less like the bedraggled mob who’d poured off ships on the South coast with little more than their rifle and tin hat. Adolph looked like he’d missed his chance to try and knock Blighty out of the war. Any invasion in the Spring would find a powerful force ready and waiting for him.

Which led to some speculation about what would happen to the First Army Tank Brigade, still made up of 4th, 7th and 8th Bn RTR. All three Battalions were now up to strength, (all equipped with Matilda IIs) and ready to face whichever foe His Majesty needed vanquishing.

NB text in italic differs from OTL. The 7th were of course reequipped with Matildas and arrived in Egypt where their contribution to Op Compass was outstanding. As mentioned in my last update, the 4th sent a squadron to East Africa where they also did very well. One of the problems for the 8th was that when they arrived in Egypt in April 1941 their tanks had been sent through the Mediterranean on the Tiger convoy and some ships got sunk, so they were under-strength. The ability to send out the 21st Tank Brigade in previous updates is that 1st Tank Brigade is fully equipped at home. I wanted to emphasis that the veteran experience of the these three regiments is shared widely with the rest of the RAC.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Looking back, I'm surprised something like the Loyd Carrier didn't come up a lot earlier. It surely wouldn't have taken much imagination that if you took a Universal Carrier, stretched it out so that the rear bogie was a full, two-wheel unit rather than a single-wheel one (and maybe installed a slightly more powerful engine), that you'd have a carrier with significantly more stowage than the Universals, yet very similar maintenance requirements, and significant commonality of parts.

As to the naval side of things, that really depends on North Africa. If you can take North Africa in 1941, it's quite possible the Siege of Malta doesn't go on nearly as long as OTL, due to there suddenly being no reason for the siege, so Ark Royal quite possibly won't be out in November delivering aircraft, which means that U-81 won't be in a position to take a shot at her.

It was a solution in search of a problem in 1939 when it was designed

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51:carriers-universal-bren-and-loyd&catid=45:transport-carriers&Itemid=55

You need the experience of the desert war for the Loyd carriers production to be ramped up. By the time you get to 1944 and Overlord anything that could be pressed into service as an ersatz carrier was being tried.

Astrodragon has the pre-war exercises triggering the expansion of infantry carriers which is credible. In Allan's TL, Carden just doesn't have the influence to ram through the expansion of non-tank AFV (and to be honest he probably is too focussed on tanks to worry about it).

Production of Carriers by year (UK Only) ​

	Pre-War	Sep-Dec 1939	1940	1941	1942	1943	1944	1945(End of May)
Carriers Bren/Scout	1,769	576	1	-	-	-	-	-
Carriers Loyd	-	-	184	611	2,389	4,448	9,224	46
Carriers Universal	-	-	4,991	7,424	11,182	11,683	7,744	1,430
O.P. Carrier	-	-	205	698	1,859	2,415	1	-

 

[MattII]

It was a solution in search of a problem in 1939 when it was designed

http://www.wwiiequipment.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51:carriers-universal-bren-and-loyd&catid=45:transport-carriers&Itemid=55

You need the experience of the desert war for the Loyd carriers production to be ramped up. By the time you get to 1944 and Overlord anything that could be pressed into service as an ersatz carrier was being tried.

Astrodragon has the pre-war exercises triggering the expansion of infantry carriers which is credible. In Allan's TL, Carden just doesn't have the influence to ram through the expansion of non-tank AFV (and to be honest he probably is too focussed on tanks to worry about it).

Production of Carriers by year (UK Only) ​

	Pre-War	Sep-Dec 1939	1940	1941	1942	1943	1944	1945(End of May)
Carriers Bren/Scout	1,769	576	1	-	-	-	-	-
Carriers Loyd	-	-	184	611	2,389	4,448	9,224	46
Carriers Universal	-	-	4,991	7,424	11,182	11,683	7,744	1,430
O.P. Carrier	-	-	205	698	1,859	2,415	1	-

Well here the experience was France, specifically Arras, where they several times got into situations where troops would have been really helpful, but they weren't available.

 

[Derek Pullem]

30 November 1940. Braco, Scotland.

The Officers of 7th Bn Royal Tank Regiment, heroes of Arras, attended a dance in the village hall on their final night in Perthshire. The NCOs in their Mess and Other Ranks in their barracks were also celebrating the end of the training regime.

The remnants of the Fourth and the Seventh Battalions RTR had crossed the Channel in late May and early June, mostly on the “Mona’s Isle” or “King Orry”, Isle-of-Man steam packets. The latter had been shelled from the shore and strafed by up to 6 Messerschmitt fighters, the men of the First Army Tank Brigade suffered 23 killed and almost double that wounded on their way home.

Back in England, the men of both Battalions had re-organised at Twesledown near Aldershot. Many of the experienced tank commanders were promoted, more were transferred to other RTR Battalions to share their experience with the still-forming units. A few NCOs had been selected to attend Sandhurst and were nearing the completion of their officer training, more had been attached to Bovington as instructors.

A lot of new men had been integrated into the Battalion, and it had taken what seemed an age to find them 52 brand new tanks Infantry Tank Mark II (Matilda IIs). Some had hoped for the new Vickers Valiant Infantry Tank Mark III, but the Mark II had served them well in France, and they were just glad to any kind of tank. The Battalion been brought up to Scotland, where there was space for exercises, to complete their training.

Those who followed the news and reports from their sister Battalions wondered what would happen to them now. The Greeks were giving the Italians a good kicking in Albania, and the build-up of the British forces in Egypt was getting to the point where they might be able to go on the offensive. The Home Forces were also beginning to look a bit less like the bedraggled mob who’d poured off ships on the South coast with little more than their rifle and tin hat. Adolph looked like he’d missed his chance to try and knock Blighty out of the war. Any invasion in the Spring would find a powerful force ready and waiting for him.

Which led to some speculation about what would happen to the First Army Tank Brigade, still made up of 4th, 7th and 8th Bn RTR. All three Battalions were now up to strength, (all equipped with Matilda IIs) and ready to face whichever foe His Majesty needed vanquishing.

NB text in italic differs from OTL. The 7th were of course reequipped with Matildas and arrived in Egypt where their contribution to Op Compass was outstanding. As mentioned in my last update, the 4th sent a squadron to East Africa where they also did very well. One of the problems for the 8th was that when they arrived in Egypt in April 1941 their tanks had been sent through the Mediterranean on the Tiger convoy and some ships got sunk, so they were under-strength. The ability to send out the 21st Tank Brigade in previous updates is that 1st Tank Brigade is fully equipped at home. I wanted to emphasis that the veteran experience of the these three regiments is shared widely with the rest of the RAC.

So there is a full brigade of Matildas waiting to be shipped out once Valiant production catches up with demand. Even if the troops don't go with them, it offers optionms for reinforcing flashpoints (hopefully not Greece but also in the future Burma / Malaya / Australia)

 

[Derek Pullem]

Well here the experience was France, specifically Arras, where they several times got into situations where troops would have been really helpful, but they weren't available.

So if this is sufficient (debatable) you might advance the production by a year

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Dahl has a significant number of other strikes against him, such as the coital fascination with non-adults [paedophillia]] which is present in his own development autobiograpically and thematically present in his works. He does present one of the best literary depictions of the "pilots heaven," I've read in his otherwise pathetic autobiograpical works for adults. His works for children, however, are cautionary tales which every child capable should read to prepare them against predatory adults.

He will always live with a glitterous world of awareness of abusiveness. He seems to be attuned to conflict and fixatedon youth.

You what now?

 

[Derwit]

If in this TL the British and Greeks hold Crete as soon as the Germans get distracted in Russia, Churchill is going to be pushing for Balkan adventures. At the very least expect some amphibious attacks against the Dodecanese Islands. ITTL could the invasion of Sicily be replaced by an earlier attempt to liberate Greece? It has the benefit of being closer to the Russian front and a friendly population. Of course the logistics suck but if you want to tie down a lot of Axis forces in an unhealthy area (due to the partisans/resistance) a genuine threat would be all that's needed.

 

[Fred the Great]

You what now?

Yeah I'm not sure how a pseudo psycho analysis of Roald Dahl is relevant to this thread, but maybe the best advice is to not go down that rabbit hole?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Yeah I'm not sure how a pseudo psycho analysis of Roald Dahl is relevant to this thread, but maybe the best advice is to not go down that rabbit hole?

100% agree with you on both points

 

[allanpcameron]

100% agree with you on both points

Me three. I'm kind of used to tangents on this thread, but ...

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Yeah I'm not sure how a pseudo psycho analysis of Roald Dahl is relevant to this thread, but maybe the best advice is to not go down that rabbit hole?

Here, here.

 

[thegreatpl]

If in this TL the British and Greeks hold Crete as soon as the Germans get distracted in Russia, Churchill is going to be pushing for Balkan adventures. At the very least expect some amphibious attacks against the Dodecanese Islands. ITTL could the invasion of Sicily be replaced by an earlier attempt to liberate Greece? It has the benefit of being closer to the Russian front and a friendly population. Of course the logistics suck but if you want to tie down a lot of Axis forces in an unhealthy area (due to the partisans/resistance) a genuine threat would be all that's needed.

In OTL, the body of Captain (Acting Major) William Martin of the Royal Marines washed up on the shore of Spain. On his person was some correspondence between two British Generals revealing the entire plan to invade Greece and Sardinia, and that there would be a feint on Sicily. Despite the best efforts of the British, the plan ended up in the hands of the Germans, who shifted reinforcements to Greece and Sardinia to counter.

So they were a bit surprised when the Allies invaded Scilily anyway; Operation Mincemeat having been a complete success in tricking the Germans. William Martin was merely some homeless guy who'd died eating rat poison they'd dressed up.

So OTL, an invasion of Greece was at least plausible to the Germans.

 

[Astrodragon]

If Britain holds Crete and North Africa, the southern east med becomes a British lake, all covered in the air. So far fewer naval escorts are needed (including the scarce carriers).
Shipping through the med requires a clearout of Vichy as well, but if Italian Africa falls quickly, this can be taken too (if it doesn't fall anyway from internal divisions). Then you can move ships along the NA coast, with massive shipping savings.

 

[Atrophied]

As i said if the germans werent interested in north africa thanks to the italians being kicked out before barbarossa starts they could pawn off the occupation of greece to the italians and use the freed up troops for rear area security wich was actually a massive issue during the eastern campaigns or as replacements to casualties even . Then when italy surrenders you might have a driver for a southern front from greece but not a real invasion of greece before that please and only if you have shipping and enough troops available cause otherwise you might risk getting kicked out . I think you need atleast one full army of 9 divisons with a armored divison or two to not get kicked out .

And if north africa is cleared in 41 , you could invade sicily earlier and then italy aswell, maybe in 42 even . Brits morale against the italians without germans being around should be great tough.Going for the toe of italy rather than sicily might be a option especially if german troops arent around yet outside the luftwaffe atleast in italy i mean.

And as i mentioned , sending enough valiant tanks to india to equip their tank divison and having it help in the burma battles could be massive altough burma isnt great tank country sometime in 1941 so they can be used in 42 in burma maybe. Then you can stand up maybe another indian armored divison with the spare matilda production maybe or diverting the american order to the indians and you can send later valiant built tanks to india when enough victors are being built aswell(basicly keep building matildas for 1941 maybe even 1942 - especially the pom pom variant for far east service and the indian army and i imagine the australians would be interested aswell to be honest). You could also try to give australians valiants but wich should fight with the burma army maybe in 42 or 43 ? You could actually reconquer malaya and singapore and maybe even invade french indochina and thailand aswell .

Maybe the idea could be to have the last 1000 valiant ones be sent to australia and india to create a british like armored division and for training and spares and you can maybe keep building matildas for export to the far east aswell? It would take about two or at worst three months and the logic is that you want the mark 2-s anyway for ur armored forces fighting in europe and that the indians have a armored divison without tanks and australia can do a tank divison aswell , maybe with plans of it being shipped to the middle east after their done training at home ? To explain why its being done in 41 if you cant explain on the japanese threat alone , both of those divisons will be sent to the europe theater in 42 but they get diverted to the burma campaign thanks to the japanese invasion .

And maybe if clearing the vichy takes some time and thats why the australian divisons arent recalled but when singapore falls they would be but the british can persuade them to be withdrawn for the burma campaign . And clearing north africa might take abit without americans and algeria and morocco are big countries if there is enough resistance . This should absorb most of 1941 i imagine and then there is syria to consider aswell . The withdrawal would be in 1942 is my proposal for the more succesful burma campaign with the new zealand divison and i hope the british send some actual british troops aswell rather than keeping it a empire troops situation only.

I still insist that you have the british do better in the malaya campaign even if it falling is inevitable without a bigger pod.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Shipping through the med requires a clearout of Vichy as well

Not really. Vichy was 'neutral', iirc the Germans used it to supply subs or the like that could be plausibly denied, but not for visible attacks. If the Germans don't take much interest in North Africa, Vichy probably keep their heads down and hope to be ignored.

 

[Astrodragon]

Not really. Vichy was 'neutral', iirc the Germans used it to supply subs or the like that could be plausibly denied, but not for visible attacks. If the Germans don't take much interest in North Africa, Vichy probably keep their heads down and hope to be ignored.

If you want to run Med convoys fairly safely you need all NA for air cover from Italian attacks. Just the eastern half makes Malta much easier, but getting it all releases around 2,000,000tons of shipping(more if there is less fighting going on)

 

[Icedaemon]

I am eagerly awaiting a chapter told from the perspective of Giovanni Straniero the PBI. Is one in the cards?