Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[allanpcameron]

Hm, I was under the impression that production on the A9, A10 and A11 had been completed months ago. Was I wrong in that assumption?

They were all winding down, clearing the floors for the Valiant. The point was that production was ceasing, rather than keeping open lines for obsolete tanks, which in the post-Dunkirk panic happened OTL. At least that is my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.
Allan

 

[MattII]

They were all winding down, clearing the floors for the Valiant. The point was that production was ceasing, rather than keeping open lines for obsolete tanks, which in the post-Dunkirk panic happened OTL. At least that is my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.
Allan

Pretty sure the A11 at least, finished production in January.

Edit: Yep post #2024, All the A11s were (or should have been) completed by the end of January, and the floor-space given over to Valiants.

 

[Merrick]

I'm not sure that I'm going to continue to use italic text to note differences from OTL. Much of what will happen will be divergent to a greater or lesser extent.

Don't worry about it. Sooner or later the butterflies stack up until staying with OTL is less plausible than diverging.
I'm still enjoying this and it doesn't seem particularly implausible to me.

Good to see the British taking on board the need for reliability.

 

[Atrophied]

But the italic text for the battle of france was a great innovation so kudos for that . Maybe try to keep it for major decisions that have changed only rather than everything?

Even a weakened 51st division will be useful for their battle experience and be redeployable as soon as gear and replacements arrive while their otl fate was surrender wich is one of the first major butterflys to be honest in the story. Also the 1st armored divison surviving at like a brigade strenght and even more in personel would make rebuilding the division rather alot easier than otl . As said earlier sending a 2nd armored divison and reinforcements to the 7th would make the north african campaign alot more interesting than otl campaign. Altough they might be wasted away on the greece campaign again and leave the 7th to refit instead so rommels counterattack isnt as disastorous?

 

[Astrodragon]

We haven't even finished in France and you want to send everything to the Western Desert! Don't you like the Italians??

 

[Astrodragon]

The 51st will need a new influx of infantrymen, but that's the easiest part of a division to replace. I'd see them as being rebuilt but still available for home defence while they are doing that.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The 51st will need a new influx of infantrymen, but that's the easiest part of a division to replace. I'd see them as being rebuilt but still available for home defence while they are doing that.

The prewar and first wartime conscripts are just becoming ready to be sent to front line units.

 

[naraic]

11 June 1940. Cairo, Egypt.

I thought we might see Italy declare war a day or two later than OTL.

 

[pedmore1202]

We haven't even finished in France and you want to send everything to the Western Desert! Don't you like the Italians??

Does that question really need an answer?

 

[Atrophied]

But yeah the most likely fate of the 1st armored since it survived more intact is probably being sent to desert force in the fall but be redeployed to greece most likely after that . But that would change enough things so that the 7th divison stays around and hopefully handle rommels first counterattack alot better compared to otl is probably another butterfly. And the 1st armored will get a rather strange reputation and the title of 1st armored might actually be abandoned after the greece disaster.

And my point about the 51st divison was that it is the first major butterfly of the story history wise to be honest. And rebuilding the divison is rather easy compared to raising new ones since it would still maintain the battle experince.

 

[marathag]

Hm, does anyone know when the US 75mm gun is going to be available?

Originally was going to be an Army reply for 75mmAA, but was still far worse than the existing WWI 3"AA gun in performance, but was lighter.
But for a Tank, the T7 M2 wasn't ready til late 1940 as far as I can tell

 

[MattII]

Originally was going to be an Army reply for 75mmAA, but was still far worse than the existing WWI 3"AA gun in performance, but was lighter.
But for a Tank, the T7 M2 wasn't ready til late 1940 as far as I can tell

So, not available immediately, but maybe later as an alternative to the 6-pounder, for a more dual-purpose vehicle. Assuming they actually find out about it, which is probably dependent on their convincing the Americans to build the Valiant.

 

[MarcH]

So looking at the state of play and reading between the lines a bit.

As it stands Britain has 5 tanks on the go in one form or another with 2 on the way somewhere down the line.

Tetrarch is as OTL si basically a non issue. Hardly any will be made so doesn't count. That takes the number down to 4 that we need to worry about.
Matilda II, reading between the lines, seems to be on the wind down so complete the current order and then thats it. Now how that will go with invasion preparations etc remains to be seen. I suspect however that it may well get more orders but no expansion in production beyond what is currently possible.

The cruiser Valiant is about to start entering service shortly and will be the main cruiser fairly soon. The thing is even with the decision to increase production it will still be being produced in noticeably smaller numbers than the Infantry Valiant. The question is will the numbers be enough to fill the need for cruiser tanks or will the infantry Valiant be pressed into service to fill the backlog.

The Crusader is in an interesting position. The decision to update the design to take a bigger gun and more armour is both the right one and may well doom the tank. By the time the work has been done and tested the Valiant will likely be by far the dominant tank in British service. In addition the additions will increase the weight quite considerably. That will either impact its speed which somewhat hampers its main selling point or the Liberty will have to be stressed to high heaven so the reliability will suffer. Either way the picture isn't rosy unless it gets a comet style makeover so it can take the new Vickers HV 3inch gun and a Meteor but thats a stretch to get there for most manufacturers and Nuffield won't entertain anything other than a Liberty.

Then we have the Infantry Valiant. Pretty soon it will be the main tank of Britain by accident or design. It is already being produced in the most numbers and has the most potential to expand its production numbers based on the manufacturers involved. Then you add in the new post Dunkirk orders and it will probably be more than 50% of the total production. Add in the large numbers likely to be built every month and it may well end up as the Universal tank before long.

So the 5 tanks are really more like 2 that need to be considered in the short to medium term. And of those two one is likely going to be produced far more than the other.



As for the two on the way. The Churchill will likely suffer the axe when people realise it's more of a comparison to the Valiant than the Victor. Why start producing the Churchill when you already have plenty of Valiants. That all assume of course that the Churchill of TTL is the same as or similar to the OTL tank. If it is more Black Prince with a better engine then it may get a place but even then will suffer in comparison to the Victor.

The Victor, well thats going to be a true universal tank and I can't wait to see it arrive.

 

[MattII]

Just on the Victor, it's going to be a damn good tank regardless, but I do feel it's not quite going to make 'great', unless something about the engine (500 hp is okay but 550-600 hp would be better, if it could be managed), and the turret ring (66" might be better than Comet, but it's still less than the 69" ring the Sherman is likely to get).

 

[GrahamB]

As for the two on the way. The Churchill will likely suffer the axe when people realise it's more of a comparison to the Valiant than the Victor. Why start producing the Churchill when you already have plenty of Valiants. That all assume of course that the Churchill of TTL is the same as or similar to the OTL tank. If it is more Black Prince with a better engine then it may get a place but even then will suffer in comparison to the Victor.

I'm optimistic this timeline's version of the Churchill will end up as the new 'linebreaker' tank, perhaps with an artillery piece in the turret for anti-fortification work. I certainly don't expect it to be produced in as many numbers as OTL, but I have a soft spot for the big lug, especially now that there's the potential for a big turret mounting a 25pdr.

 

[MarcH]

Just on the Victor, it's going to be a damn good tank regardless, but I do feel it's not quite going to make 'great', unless something about the engine (500 hp is okay but 550-600 hp would be better, if it could be managed), and the turret ring (66" might be better than Comet, but it's still less than the 69" ring the Sherman is likely to get).

The engine is likely to end up as the Meteor just we aren't there yet. As for the turret ring well thats only a part of the equation. The gun is going to be better than anything put in a sherman unless the sherman gets the same gun and the armour will also be better. Give it a meteor and it will likely be as manoeuvrable. Also the turret ring can still be increased during more detailed design work.

 

[MarcH]

I'm optimistic this timeline's version of the Churchill will end up as the new 'linebreaker' tank, perhaps with an artillery piece in the turret for anti-fortification work. I certainly don't expect it to be produced in as many numbers as OTL, but I have a soft spot for the big lug, especially now that there's the potential for a big turret mounting a 25pdr.

Possibly but I suspect the hassle of setting up manufacturing for something so niche won't be worth it. Plus Carden may pre empt that with Valiant variants

 

[GrahamB]

I'd say having Harland & Wolff/Vauxhall make the A22(+)'specialist heavy tank' is ideal since it won't interfere with the mainline production lines over at Vickers.
The only item that might be in demand from both factories is the Merritt-Brown gearbox, but I can't remember if the Victor is expected to use that one. Regardless, that can be set up as its own production source to supply both companies.

 

[MarcH]

Harland and Wolff aren't involved as they are already making Valiants TTL. It would just be Vauxhall and I really suspect that by the time TTL's Churchill is ready Britain will be so far down the Universal Tank path that they won't want to complicate the logistics of having to produce such a specialist vehicle in only limited numbers and supply it in field. Far better to covert a Valiant/Victor for the role or the auxiliary AFV Carden is designing to be an AAP/SPG/SPAAG etc

 

[MattII]

The engine is likely to end up as the Meteor just we aren't there yet. As for the turret ring well thats only a part of the equation. The gun is going to be better than anything put in a sherman unless the sherman gets the same gun and the armour will also be better. Give it a meteor and it will likely be as manoeuvrable. Also the turret ring can still be increased during more detailed design work.

Hm, would a conical turret basket give you a couple of inches?

Possibly but I suspect the hassle of setting up manufacturing for something so niche won't be worth it. Plus Carden may pre empt that with Valiant variants

Production is taking place at Vauxhall, which has little other work going on, so unless the project is actually dropped, it will probably go ahead.