Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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Chapter 2. 10 June 1940. London, England.
Chapter 2

10 June 1940. London, England.

The Tank Board had been convened on 29 May to ‘consider the whole situation regarding the production and design of tanks and to advise the Minister of Supply as to future action.’ Chaired by Sir Alexander Roger of BSA, who’d done the same job for the Ministry of Munitions during the Great War, the rest of the members were Mr A Durrant, a chief engineer of the London Passenger Transport Board; Mr J Moyses, Managing Director of Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon Company; and Mr G Thompson, Member of the General Council of the Trades Union Congress.

Their initial report had been provided to the Ministry of Supply on 7 June which focused on five main recommendations. Firstly, the army should concentrate on a minimum number of types in order to achieve standardisation of design. Secondly, the army needed to state unequivocally, and through one focal point, the fundamentals of their demands in terms of armament, production, performance and numbers. Thirdly, control of the organisation in the Ministry of Supply should be in the hands of civilians familiar with and engaged in rapid commercial methods. Fourthly, since there was a civilian Director General responsible for both tanks and wheeled vehicles, a General Manager should be appointed whose sole responsibility was to the tank department, with two subordinates to take charge of responsibility for design and production. Lastly, tank construction should be simplified, and responsibility for complete assembly should be with the Ministry to avoid vehicles being issued without vital equipment.

In the War Office the after-action reports and recommendations that had flowed in were being digested and reflected upon. Brigadier Pratt, commander of First Army Tank Brigade, Vyvyan Pope, the BEF’s advisor on Armoured Vehicles, General Evans, commander of 1st Armoured Division, amongst many others had meant that a preliminary War Office response to the Tank Board’s recommendations was now ready to be sent to the Ministry of Supply.

Regarding the first point, all current production of the Vickers Light Tank Mark VI should be completed and no further orders made. The A17 Tetrarch, now being made in Glasgow, would from now on be the only light tank to be constructed. The army would prefer to focus on suitable Armoured Cars and reconnaissance vehicles for the Divisional Cavalry Regiment requirement. Production of the remaining Vickers A9, A10 cruisers and A11 infantry tanks on order were to be completed, but no further orders made. The production orders of the A13 cruiser tank, likewise, were to be completed but no further orders made. The orders made for the Vulcan A12 were to continue to be produced. The orders for the Vickers Valiant Mark I and I* were to be increased. Orders for the Nuffield A15 would be dependent on it being able take on board the lessons learned. This would mean that the minimum number of types of tanks would be: Light Tank: A17 Tetrarch; Cruiser tanks: Valiant Mark I* and possibly A15; Infantry tanks: Vulcan A12 and Vickers Valiant Mark I.

Regarding the next generation of tanks, the War Office recommendation was that work being done on the design by Vauxhall on the A22 infantry tank was to continue, and three prototypes built to be evaluated. These would be in competition with the Vickers Victor for the role of Infantry Tank. The Nuffield A15E1 had just recently arrived at Farnborough for evaluation. The need to thicken its armour and have a larger gun in its turret would mean it would need to be redesigned, delaying its entry into service. The Valiant I* would be the main cruiser tank at least through to late 1941. Work on the Valiant Mark II, with the larger gun would be prioritised, and would be preferred to be put into production by the end of 1940 at the latest.

The second element of the War Office’s reply to the Tank Board’s recommendations regarded the armament, production, performance and numbers of tanks. The War Office was clear that the armament of the tank should be the minimum of the 6-pdr under development, but much had been learned about the need for a tank to fire a good sized HE round. If the 6-pdr couldn’t provide a satisfactory HE round, then a tank gun of around 75mm would be required. The armour of the German tanks captured during the campaign was still being investigated, but the presumption was that the Germans would thicken their armour further after the losses the 2-pdr gun inflicted on them.

A study of the performance of the two main types of tanks, Infantry and Cruiser, had shown that in general the Infantry Tank’s armour was very important and lack of speed less important. The Cruiser tanks hadn’t been able to fulfil the role for which they had been designed, but had proved to be unreliable and too vulnerable. With the loss of so many tanks on the Continent, production of Infantry Tanks should be prioritised over Cruiser tanks. What was needed was a tank that was well protected, had a good gun, and was reasonably mobile, but, above all, was reliable. Production methods by the manufacturers of tanks should take reliability much more seriously, with some kind of systematic quality control over each component and sub-assembly, as well as the finished article. It was clear that tanks would have to travel far more on their own tracks than had been previously planned for. There was a need for both more tank transporters to move tanks by road, and an inbuilt capability for a tank to move itself over a good distance and still be fit to fight at the end of the road march.

The number of tanks needed by the army was now much greater, to replace losses as well as build up towards the planned number of armoured division and tank brigades. It was particularly important to plan for extra numbers for training purposes and as replacements and reserves on hand for the armoured units.

With regard to the other recommendations of the Tank Board, the War Office was concerned that the civilians responsible for the production, design and development of armoured fighting vehicles should work closely with the army to make sure that there was no divergence between the needs of the customer (the army) and the supplier (the manufacturers). The last recommendation, that all tanks should be handed over to the army fully equipped with everything needed, was strongly supported in the War Office response.
 
I'm not sure that I'm going to continue to use italic text to note differences from OTL. Much of what will happen will be divergent to a greater or lesser extent. The five recommendations of the Tank Board are as OTL, the preliminary response is fictional but summarises the main points that have been learned. I'm not trying (too) deliberately to end the A15 Crusader or A22 Churchill as I did with the Covenanter, but...
Just a reminder of what we're talking about again:
The A17 Tetrarch will probably have about the same limited run as it did OTL, about 100 or so.
The Valiant I* is the one with the big petrol Lion engine had proven powerful enough to move the heavy-weight cruiser at 27mph comfortably on the road and able to reach 30mph ‘downhill with a wind behind it’. Off road the tank was a comfortable ride and reasonable gun platform at between 12 and 15mph. Although it was generally a few miles per hour slower than the A13, this was more than made up for with the same 2.3-inch armour of the A11 infantry tank. The downside of using the petrol engine in the Mark I* was that its range was reduced compared with the Mark I, 105 miles instead of 158 miles.
The Infantry Tank Mark III, as the army called the Mark I Valiant had exceeded expectations. Compared with the Vulcan A12 it was between 8mph and 12mph faster, with the same level of armour, much easier to operate and designed for comparatively simpler welded manufacturing. Armed with the same 2-pdr gun and co-axial .303 machine gun it had the same armament and was a bit cheaper per unit than the Vulcan.
Regarding Vickers building a tank version of the new 6-pdr, an initial order for 200 6-pdr guns to be fitted in the Valiant Mark II was approved. The 2-pdr armed tanks were thought of as being suitable currently, having a 6-pdr capable tank ready to go into production at the beginning of 1941 seemed sensible.
 
I'm not sure that I'm going to continue to use italic text to note differences from OTL. Much of what will happen will be divergent to a greater or lesser extent. The five recommendations of the Tank Board are as OTL, the preliminary response is fictional but summarises the main points that have been learned. I'm not trying (too) deliberately to end the A15 Crusader or A22 Churchill as I did with the Covenanter, but...
Just a reminder of what we're talking about again:
The A17 Tetrarch will probably have about the same limited run as it did OTL, about 100 or so.
Logical for the light tank, there's not really a niche for something this light and small yet, and with the greater amount of Infantry Tanks in France as opposed to OTL, thick armor is more vital than ever.

The Churchill competing with the Victor is going to be one hell of a shock for Vauxhall if it is made aware of it and the proposed specs for the Victor. I don't know if the timeline changed that already, but IIRC Vauxhall was only seriously told to make the A22 (and the specs made) in June 1940. The A22 technically meets armor requirements but the gun will need to be the 6pdr minimum, maybe even bigger. Countering the Victor's mobility will also be impossible with the Bedford Twin-Six and the existing suspension.

The existence of the Valiant makes a rushed A22 unnecessary. Everything points to Vauxhall deeply redesigning the vehicle. Luckily it should be at such an early level of development that changing the design will be easy. Bedford will likely be ordered to design a more powerful engine, and I don't know if the Twin-Six could do it.

As for the A15, seems like it's going to be closer to the Cavalier than the Crusader at least.
 

Coulsdon Eagle

Monthly Donor
3 examples are currently maintained at Bovington

2 Runners and a ex gunnery target (obviously in slightly worse condition)

Further orders would have to have been made 18 months or so earlier

OTL it was kept in production till Aug 1940 with the last order being Jan 39

With so much effort being made on the Valiant by Vickers (who made the Matilda I) I doubt there would be any more production on the A11 to be honest.
Having seen the ex-gunnery target, it seemed to be more holes than armour.
 
Having seen the ex-gunnery target, it seemed to be more holes than armour.
Tis but a scratch....

Matilda I Target.jpg
 
While a dual-purpose gun is ideal, if they are going to concentrate on infantry tanks for the time being, a close-support variant with something like the 3" LV howitzer would make sense. They can use mixed troops - not perfect, but better than only having one type of weapon. That gun should fit in the Valiant quite easily
 
Two Companies, with no support, no respite and no relief, holding off two Divisions and a Brigade, for six days?

That's the stuff of legend.
I think that they were actually by-passed for the most part, and when the Germans came at them properly they didn't last too long.
That's a long time to wait to be picked up, methinks there's been a slight error made.
I was working on the principle that the infantry would be pulling back, a bit like the did in the Dunkirk pocket, so during the night of 9/10 and most of 10 June the majority being evacuated would have been front line infantry troops.
Yeah the fate of the 51st division and the 1st armored are rather pointless losses and barely remembered compared to otl since they were after dunkirk and everyone seemed to forget them.
Also i imagine the armored guys will go to the desert rather earlier and this alone might change things enough that maybe they dont do the greece adventure thanks to more success altough the main issue against italians before rommel arrived was more about logistics rather than fighting. But more reliable tanks should help rather alot hopefully.
1st Armoured will need a bit of time to re-equip and get themselves sorted out. Some tank units will go to North Africa as they did OTL, but you'll need to wait and see who. (In other words I don't know yet).
Very nice updates . Sofar the main changes are abit more casualties but rather alot less prisoners maybe for the brits and more belgians and french evacuated.About 50k more at dunkirk and probably some from calais that werent done in otl . Also how many troops were evacuated from the dieppe pocket cause in otl they also did surrender allan?
Operation Cycle expected around 25k Brits and 60k French. Probably not quite that, but not far off, you (in a later post) thought 50k all in, that's probably about right.
Im pretty sure the evacuated troops didnt go to POW camps and they are a base to recruit further free french forces.
Most French troops were taken almost directly back to Cherbourg after their brief trip to England. I don't see that changing.
Also please try to handle the french navy surrender better than otl . Probably sending it to west indies seems most realistic option .
This is outside the scope of my TL, sorry.
I might be wrong here but this means that there are now at least two extra formed Divisions in the British Army's OOB over historical.
With a lesser Invasion Scare the 1st Armoured could be sent to Egypt, or elsewhere, much earlier, as could the 51st Highland.
(Especially as there is now no need to to re-designate the 9th Highland Division)
The casualties among the infantry of 51st (Highland) Division were very heavy before they were evacuated. Not the complete loss as OTL, but they'll need a bit of TLC. Same with 1st Armoured.
Wouldn't the longer battle for Calais and Dunkirk and greater tank losses in the area have forced the Germans to delay Fall Rot a bit so that the units damaged as of the 3rd of June can recover?
From my reading, not really. The armoured divisions facing the southern flank of the Dunkirk pocket were pulled out pretty quickly and 18th Army took over destroying the pocket. They'd had the previous stop too, and yes there were more losses in a couple of Divisions, but, they're still as able as they were OTL. But, as I say, that's my reading of the books.
Thanks for the update. Small nitpick : it's WEYGAND, not WEYGRAND
Cheers, I'll correct it.
The post Dunkirk evacuations were significant. Between Le Havre, Cherbourg, Brest, St Nazaire and sundry other small ports the Royal Navy took almost 200,000 troops off and a large number of civilians. About 3/4 of the troops were British but there was a big contingent of Poles (their main training base was in Brittany). The big changes seem to be that the 51st Highland mostly escaped (as opposed to mostly captured) and the whole evacuation seems to have been slightly less frenetic and panicked so that more materiel was retrieved and less left behind undamaged for the Germans. That is going to hurt the German down the line as they were operating on wafer thin stocks already.
Good evaluation. Don't think I saved the Lancastria however.
OTL it was kept in production till Aug 1940 with the last order being Jan 39
With so much effort being made on the Valiant by Vickers (who made the Matilda I) I doubt there would be any more production on the A11 to be honest.
The production was hurried in this timeline to get the floor clear for the Valiant, so yes, no more A11s.
Allan
Excellent update.....please keep 'em coming...
Thanks
Ta, doing my best.
 
While a dual-purpose gun is ideal, if they are going to concentrate on infantry tanks for the time being, a close-support variant with something like the 3" LV howitzer would make sense. They can use mixed troops - not perfect, but better than only having one type of weapon. That gun should fit in the Valiant quite easily
The capture of the PzIV is a deliberate call on my part, for just this reason. I'm struggling to find when the 3-inch gun was actually in production. Most sources put it as 1941. It was designed to fit the space of the 2-pdr so that it could be used, without much modification, in the same turrets. If anyone had any more sources I'd love to see them!
Allan.
 
I was working on the principle that the infantry would be pulling back, a bit like the did in the Dunkirk pocket, so during the night of 9/10 and most of 10 June the majority being evacuated would have been front line infantry troops.
I think PLP was referring to it reading 10 January, not 10 June.
 
What bugs me with the 3" CS howitzer is how long it looks yet how low velocity it is. The ransom of a gun as small and light as the 2 pounder.
 
The capture of the PzIV is a deliberate call on my part, for just this reason. I'm struggling to find when the 3-inch gun was actually in production. Most sources put it as 1941. It was designed to fit the space of the 2-pdr so that it could be used, without much modification, in the same turrets. If anyone had any more sources I'd love to see them!
Allan.
It certainly wasn't available in 1938 :D
There are likely a number of imperfect bodges that could be done in 3-6 months if the real 3" takes too long. They just need something with a small recoil that they can bore out to take a larger HE shell.
 
It certainly wasn't available in 1938 :D
There are likely a number of imperfect bodges that could be done in 3-6 months if the real 3" takes too long. They just need something with a small recoil that they can bore out to take a larger HE shell.
It's frustratingly vague but this document would lead me to believe the gun was available as a prototype in early 1937

 
It's frustratingly vague but this document would lead me to believe the gun was available as a prototype in early 1937

Earlier A9 and A10 CS tanks used the 3.7" mountain howitzer gun - no reason why this could not continue to be used until the 3" is 'mature' enough to be mounted

It had a max range of 5kms, 20 pound/9.1 KG shell which compares reasonably well to the German 7.5cm KwK 37 gun found in the early war Pz IV tanks with the British shell being twice as heavy (and slightly more HE filler than a standard 25 pounder shell!) although with a slower MV - 973 ft/s (297 m/s) verses 1,260 ft/s (385 m/s) and a slightly shorter range 5,394 m verses 6,200 m

The only difference was the way in which the 2 weapons where used - the British gun mainly for smoke the German gun mainly for HE - but both could do both and other ammunition types such as HEAT, Star shell and Cannister.

I think having captured a MK IV the British will have a better appreciation of how the Germans use their 'Howitzer' armed tank and we might see a more direct HE use of the British CS tanks adopted in the period between the current Post France period and when ever a decent DP gun tank is deployed (be it a Lee, Sherman or up gunned Valiant/Valiant replacement).
 
It's frustratingly vague but this document would lead me to believe the gun was available as a prototype in early 1937

Thanks for that, I really wish the National Archives would get themselves digitised, I don't know how many times I've got as far as this type of document description and not been able to actually read what it contains!
 
Hm, does anyone know when the US 75mm gun is going to be available? If they shop the Valiant around in the USA and say they're looking for a general-purpose gun that can still fit, would the 75mm be ready to be tested to fit?
 
11 June 1940. Cairo, Egypt.
11 June 1940. Cairo, Egypt.

The Italian declaration of war the day before had been met with a strong feeling of anger at the British Middle East HQ. Everyone had been following the news of the defeat of the French and the heroic efforts of the BEF and the ‘miracle of Dunkirk’. It seemed that the declaration of war by Mussolini was nothing more than a ploy to get a seat at the victor’s table. It did mean that the large Italian armies in Libya and East Africa became an immediate threat to the British armed forces. Already the Royal Navy’s Mediterranean Fleet was on a war footing. The RAF, for all its weaknesses in the region, had come to high alert. The army, and particularly the 7th Armoured Division, were looking over the various plans they had on file for doing something about their new next-door enemy. Much midnight oil would be consumed as planning went into a high gear.
 
East Africa should be interesting

There were relatively few tanks involved - I think the British had something like 12 Matilda II in the region - but they would prove to have a massive impact on events
 
Hm, I was under the impression that production on the A9, A10 and A11 had been completed months ago. Was I wrong in that assumption?
 
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