Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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20 May 1938. 11:00hrs. Newcastle-upon-Tyne. England.
20 May 1938. 11:00hrs. Newcastle-upon-Tyne. England.

Work on the design for an alternative to Vulcan Foundry’s A12 was complete, it had the company codename of ‘Valiant’. Using the A9 and A10 as his starting point, Sir John Carden had increased the length of the new design to 19’4”, the height remained 8’8½”, while the width increased to the very limit of the rail gauge at 9’. The increased width allowed Carden to get the turret ring up to the 60” that he thought would be necessary for the next gun that would replace the 2-pdr.

As it was, the turret had enough room for a gunner, loader and commander, and there was plenty of room for ammunition storage. Just like the A9 and A10, the tank’s turret was designed for the 2-pdr gun and co-axial Vickers machine gun. There was work being done by the War Office on changing to an air-cooled machine gun to replace the Vickers. Until that appeared the water-cooled machine gun was what was offered. Carden had also designed a turret to carry the QF 3.7inch howitzer for a Close Support version.

Like the A10, the front hull was sloped without a hull mounted machine gun. He had kept the drivers position towards the side of the tank. When the driver’s position was at the centre of the tank getting in and out when the gun was facing forward was a problem. By off-setting the driver to the side Carden had managed to provide him with an adequately sized hatch for entry and exit. If the War Office insisted on a hull machine gun, then it would be slightly simpler to implement this, if the driver’s position and all the steering controls were already off-centre.

Carden’s ‘slow motion’ suspension system on the A9 and A10 hadn’t proven robust enough for the much heavier armour required on this A12 specification. He had designed the tank with the specified 2.75-inchs of armour (70mm) on the hull front and sides, with slightly thicker 3-inchs (78mm) on the front of the turret. With the tank now at 25 tons, Carden had opted to go back to the Horstmann designed suspension originally used on the A6E3. This used the leading and trailing bogies of the earlier Vickers’ ‘Japanese’ system, while the main central portion used a combination of coil springs and bell cranks. In 1936 this had been able to handle an 18-ton load at 30mph, so Carden was sure that it would be able to deal with the heavier load at more like the 20-25mph he expected the 400hp Ricardo diesel powered tank to produce. With lengthening the tank Carden had managed to increase the fuel capacity to give the tank a road radius of 120 miles.

The same Meadows No 22 clash gearbox was chosen as used on the A10, though Carden had looked at the Wilson epicyclic gearbox that Vulcan Foundry were using on the A12. As a company, Vickers was more confident in Meadow’s ability to supply their gear box than the new Wilson system. Carden was aware that later marks of his A12 alternative would likely have to look at alternatives, but it was important to get things moving as swiftly as possible.

The company executives signed off on the plans and prepared it to be presented to the War Office. A wooden mock-up was under construction and the prototype’s components were already ordered. The cost per tank, if it was to be accepted by the War Office needed to be less than Vulcan Foundry’s A12. Vickers knew that the production of the Vulcan A12 was likely to be quite slow, and so, as a sweetener, would offer to increase the workforce at their plant at Elswick build their Valiant much more quickly. If ordered ‘off the drawing board’ as the War Office had done with the A12, Vickers could promise that 100 tanks would be delivered within 18 months of being ordered, and would have the capacity to produce 30 tanks per month once full production was reached. The fact that the Valiant would be equally well armoured, but faster than Vulcan’s A12, and have the capacity to be upgraded because of the more powerful engine, meant that the company had high hopes that it would win the orders needed.
 
You don't need to say it, we're all thinking the same thing... x'D

tenor.gif
 
If the production rate increases substantially, there is little evidence that the new vehicles built would not be kept by the British Army for it's own uses. Indeed, the thread is littered with comments about how great it would be for the British Army to make use of the increased numbers of tanks available to it.
True. OTOH, if the upgraded A11s mean they do better in France, there might well be less (or even no) invasion panic,

There is no evidence of that.
To quote the wikipedia page on The Rats of Tobruk:
In 1943, the 3rd Army Tank Battalion was equipped with a squadron of Australian built Sentinel AC1 tanks which had been modified to resemble German tanks.
They received the tanks as modified for filming, not as fighting vehicles. In addition, the unit's own wikipedia page claims they had already been equipped with Matilda IIs.

The Chieftain (Nicholas Moran) has reviewed the Sentinel:
The verdict:
An innovative product given Australia's industrial capacity at the time, but a complete dog of a vehicle to try to use.


As to the latest piece, the Valiant is shaping up to be a decent tank, thick armour, upgradable (to a degree), and with decent mobility.
 
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True. OTOH, if the upgraded A11s mean they do better in France, there might well be less (or even no) invasion panic,

To quote the wikipedia page on The Rats of Tobruk:

They received the tanks as modified for filming, not as fighting vehicles. In addition, the unit's own wikipedia page claims they had already been equipped with Matilda IIs.

There is no mention of the Sentinels in the Wikipedia page on the 3rd Army Tank Brigade (Australia), nor any mention of their involvement in the filming of the Rats of Tobruk.

So, I am unsure where you are getting this information from.


The Chieftain (Nicholas Moran) has reviewed the Sentinel:
The verdict:
An innovative product given Australia's industrial capacity at the time, but a complete dog of a vehicle to try to use.

I know Nicolas from Tanknet. He is 6 foot 5 inches tall. Considerably taller than the average Australian in WWII. I agree that the vehicle has problems but some of the ones noted by Nicolas are caused by his size...

As to the latest piece, the Valiant is shaping up to be a decent tank, thick armour, upgradable (to a degree), and with decent mobility.

An immaterial point to it's production tempo...
 
There is no mention of the Sentinels in the Wikipedia page on the 3rd Army Tank Brigade (Australia), nor any mention of their involvement in the filming of the Rats of Tobruk.

So, I am unsure where you are getting this information from.
Section 3.2 (Shooting) of The Rats of Tobruk page.

I know Nicolas from Tanknet. He is 6 foot 5 inches tall. Considerably taller than the average Australian in WWII. I agree that the vehicle has problems but some of the ones noted by Nicolas are caused by his size...
The poor sighting for the commander and gunner, and the contortionist position required to operate the gun are not amongst the issues his size would cause.

An immaterial point to it's production tempo...
What is not immaterial is that the (slightly) larger turret ring will allow a three-man crew from the get-go, which will better suit the ministry, which will likely see it ordered sooner. OTL it took 11 months or so to be approved (orders only coming 3 months later, for delivery to start in may 1940), at least in part due to the two-man turret.
 
Other tanks were not available to Australia that is why the "useless" Sentinel was developed. For a first effort for a medium tank it was not all bad. It had the largest (at the time) cast hull segments in use anywhere. Its development allowed the building of the British Firefly with it's 17 Pdr. The Sentinal did see limited service, serving with one Armoured Regiment in Australia. They starred in the "Rats of Tobruk" as German tanks.
My opinion is that Australia would have been better served doing what the Canadians did and built Valentines instead of the massive over reach that was the Sentinel. Even a limited number in the hundreds would have served their needs in the region Far better than the Sentinel and they could have Had a local CD variant armed with the 3.7” mountain gun.
 
Section 3.2 (Shooting) of The Rats of Tobruk page.

In 1943, the 3rd Army Tank Battalion was equipped with a squadron of Australian built Sentinel AC1 tanks which had been modified to resemble German tanks

There is no mention of the 3 Tank Battalion receiving the Sentinels only for the filming of the movie, which is what was claimed.

The poor sighting for the commander and gunner, and the contortionist position required to operate the gun are not amongst the issues his size would cause.

I would suggest his longer legs caused considerable problems. I agree that the Sentinel would need work to be an effective tank however, as it was Australia's first effort at producing a tank of any size or weight, it was not as bad as he makes out. It is comparable to what Britain and Germany and Russia were producing at the same time.

What is not immaterial is that the (slightly) larger turret ring will allow a three-man crew from the get-go, which will better suit the ministry, which will likely see it ordered sooner. OTL it took 11 months or so to be approved (orders only coming 3 months later, for delivery to start in may 1940), at least in part due to the two-man turret.

Again, immaterial ultimately to the production tempo of the vehicle, which is what the conversation is all about...
 
If the production rate increases substantially, there is little evidence that the new vehicles built would not be kept by the British Army for it's own uses. Indeed, the thread is littered with comments about how great it would be for the British Army to make use of the increased numbers of tanks available to it.
True, and I think it is doubtful that Australian forces would be equipped with British made tanks in any serious numbers. What could happen though is that, similar to Canada, Australia could start producing Valentine/Valiant tanks from their own industry. That builds up their experience. And since it appears that the Valiant will have a useful life for more of the war, by the time it needs to be replaced in Australian service (whether that is by a follow on British design, a homegrown Australian one or the Sherman) Australian industry is better set up to meet the need. Perhaps that happened IOTL but I am not aware of it.
 
The same Meadows No 22 clash gearbox was chosen as used on the A10, though Carden had looked at the Wilson epicyclic gearbox that Vulcan Foundry were using on the A12. As a company, Vickers was more confident in Meadow’s ability to supply their gear box than the new Wilson system. Carden was aware that later marks of his A12 alternative would likely have to look at alternatives, but it was important to get things moving as swiftly as possible.
Any chance of the Merrit-Brown ending up in later versions of the Valiant? I don't think it was created until 1939 so maybe in later versions or in a follow on tank?
 
Any chance of the Merrit-Brown ending up in later versions of the Valiant? I don't think it was created until 1939 so maybe in later versions or in a follow on tank?
I looked at the Merrit-Brown, and as you say it didn't exist at this point. I did say that Carden knew that later marks of the Valiant would need to look at alternatives.
Allan
 
As it was, the turret had enough room for a gunner, loader and commander, and there was plenty of room for ammunition storage. Just like the A9 and A10, the tank’s turret was designed for the 2-pdr gun and co-axial Vickers machine gun. There was work being done by the War Office on changing to an air-cooled machine gun to replace the Vickers. Until that appeared the water-cooled machine gun was what was offered. Carden had also designed a turret to carry the QF 3.7inch howitzer for a Close Support version.

Like the A10, the front hull was sloped without a hull mounted machine gun. He had kept the drivers position towards the side of the tank. When the driver’s position was at the centre of the tank getting in and out when the gun was facing forward was a problem. By off-setting the driver to the side Carden had managed to provide him with an adequately sized hatch for entry and exit. If the War Office insisted on a hull machine gun, then it would be slightly simpler to implement this, if the driver’s position and all the steering controls were already off-centre.

Carden’s ‘slow motion’ suspension system on the A9 and A10 hadn’t proven robust enough for the much heavier armour required on this A12 specification. He had designed the tank with the specified 2.75-inchs of armour (70mm) on the hull front and sides, with slightly thicker 3-inchs (78mm) on the front of the turret. With the tank now at 25 tons, Carden had opted to go back to the Horstmann designed suspension originally used on the A6E3. This used the leading and trailing bogies of the earlier Vickers’ ‘Japanese’ system, while the main central portion used a combination of coil springs and bell cranks. In 1936 this had been able to handle an 18-ton load at 30mph, so Carden was sure that it would be able to deal with the heavier load at more like the 20-25mph he expected the 400hp Ricardo diesel powered tank to produce. With lengthening the tank Carden had managed to increase the fuel capacity to give the tank a road radius of 120 miles.

This looks quite good. It is about 14 metric tonnes lighter than the Churchill, yet a good deal smaller , better powered, has a larger turret ring, is more mobile, all that for less armor on the front (an inch or a half inch in most places), but still enough.

25 metric tonnes may actually be a bit on the low end for a weight estimation for this thing , but given that the Ricardo diesel will likely end up lighter and smaller than the Matilda II's powerpack (because based on a single aircraft engine) and that the front is sloped so may be geometrically more efficient (is it 70mm effective by the way, or nominal thickness?), I could see it being a bit lighter than the 27-ton Matilda II in spite of a larger turret.

If it is selected, then this could drastically change the specifications for the A20 Infantry Tank which AFAIK do not exist yet, or those of the Covenanter/Crusader too. 60" will likely become the standard for turret ring diameter, and the OTL A20 specs are simply surpassed except for armor so it may end up being designed with a more powerful engine from the start. And it may be a better design with another Infantry tank better than the Matilda II existing as an example.
 
If the Valiant turns out to be reliable then the Soviets are going to love the thing even more than they did the Valentine.
 
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This looks quite good. It is about 14 metric tonnes lighter than the Churchill, yet a good deal smaller , better powered, has a larger turret ring, is more mobile, all that for less armor on the front (an inch or a half inch in most places), but still enough.

25 metric tonnes may actually be a bit on the low end for a weight estimation for this thing , but given that the Ricardo diesel will likely end up lighter and smaller than the Matilda II's powerpack (because based on a single aircraft engine) and that the front is sloped so may be geometrically more efficient (is it 70mm effective by the way, or nominal thickness?), I could see it being a bit lighter than the 27-ton Matilda II in spite of a larger turret.

If it is selected, then this could drastically change the specifications for the A20 Infantry Tank which AFAIK do not exist yet, or those of the Covenanter/Crusader too. 60" will likely become the standard for turret ring diameter, and the OTL A20 specs are simply surpassed except for armor so it may end up being designed with a more powerful engine from the start. And it may be a better design with another Infantry tank better than the Matilda II existing as an example.

The Valiant will force the British Army to have a big rethink about its current tank projects and near future ones. OTL it was either a Crusier or an Infantry tank. Suddenly Vickers has proposed a doable tank which combines good armour with acceptable speed. A universal tank! If they have any sense they drop all the other projects and work initially on improveing the Valiant and then on something bigger with a more powerful gun to replace it. Unfortunately, Army percurment types always had the annoying habit of drinking their own special recipe of lead paint so I would expect them to still go down the more rubbish designs the better route until the bullets start flying in the summer of 1940.
 
Where it becomes interesting is when the Covenantor fails and the Churchill appears to fail. They now have a tank that can replace both failed tanks already in production and it would be the obvious choice to cancel them in favour of increasing Valiant production.
 
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The 60" turret ring will take the 6lb/57 mm and both the 75 mm used in the Cromwell and NA 75 Churchills. A 75 mm ROQF armed Valiant could certainly mix it up with Pz IV until they up gunned
 
The 60" turret ring will take the 6lb/57 mm and both the 75 mm used in the Cromwell and NA 75 Churchills. A 75 mm ROQF armed Valiant could certainly mix it up with Pz IV until they up gunned
The 6pdr or 75mm will take out any Pz IV ever built though the 75mm be at a range disadvantage.
 
the David Brown Gear Company patented the Triple Differential in 1935, by Dr Merritt in 1935
He joined David Brown in 1935 but I was under the impression that he created the differential with David Brown company after he started at Woolwich in 1937.
 
There is no mention of the 3 Tank Battalion receiving the Sentinels only for the filming of the movie, which is what was claimed.
They were already equipped with Matilda IIs, and they received the vehicles already modified to appear as German tanks. Regardless, they never saw active deployment.

I would suggest his longer legs caused considerable problems.
Not all of them. In addition, he compares it unfavourably to other vehicles of the same era that he personally has been in.

I agree that the Sentinel would need work to be an effective tank however, as it was Australia's first effort at producing a tank of any size or weight, it was not as bad as he makes out. It is comparable to what Britain and Germany and Russia were producing at the same time.
Favourably in stats, not mostly in crew comfort.

Again, immaterial ultimately to the production tempo of the vehicle, which is what the conversation is all about...
Well, no, possibly not in tempo, but they very likely would see them in service earlier, which means they might well have them in time for deployment to France.

Where it becomes interesting is when the Covenantor fails and the Churchill appears to fail. They now have a tank that can replace both failed tanks already in production and it would be the obvious choice to cancel them in favour of increasing Valiant production.
The Churchill's saving grace is its hill-climbing ability, it can get to places no other tank can get to. Is that enough to save it? I don't know.
 
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