The part about Martel is just OTL, so no changes here I assume.
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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Recommended Britain copy the Soviet BT tank series. As a result Britain was just introducing the Covenantor and Crusader at the same time the Soviets were replacing the BT's with the T34.
allanpcameron
Donor
That is precisely the case. The date is questionable, I haven't been able to pin down when exactly Wavell and Martel were in Russia for the Red Army Manoeuvers, some say 'Fall' (which I presume means autumn), though somehow they managed to get Christie and his tank from the USA by November. So I guessed September which is kind of autumn-ish.
The POD for this TL is that Carden survives the plane crash, nothing else should change fundamentally (unfortunately).
Allan.
marathag
Banned
British did not care for the US idea of the Radio being in the Hull, so with the Grant, was relocated into an enlarged turret, and with the Stuart Mk. V, the M3A3, the radio was also relocated to a rear bustle on a redesigned turret
marathag
Banned
But a version of it, is still used with the Israeli Merkava. One change was to make the units an all external mount, rather than having the bellcranks and springs not sandwiched between two sets of armor plate
marathag
Banned
sadly, the appearance of the US Liberty, the BT-2 had a Soviet built version of that 1918 V12 engine, the M-5.
The BT-7 had the 2,864 cubic inch M-17 Radial, based off the BMW VI V12
It is a version of it in that it has individually sprung wheels. It is not clear that it was a follow on from Christie. I have heard it claimed that it came out of Horstman suspension too. It was designed by Caterpillar and supposedly based off systems they have used for heavy equipment, it might be fair to just call it a new system that took inspiration from many existing ones.
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marathag
Banned
Christie has individual sprung wheels, as well. It's just that they are between armor plates, rather than internal. Merkava also adds a shock absorber.
Glyndwr01
Banned
Doing away with the internal frame that has the armour riveted to it; to an all welded hull will reduce weight (allow more armour) remove dangerous rivets that can become projectiles if hit & make more room in the hull! Using joints like the Panther and T34 instead of just plain butt joints will make it stronger too.
marathag
Banned
I think it was one of the Bovington Tank Videos thst showed the rivet heads were partially welded as well, making repairs additionally painfully slow 80 years later. The Valentine, IIRC for the suspension mounts.
USA just bolted the suspension units onto the M4 hull, and that was a fast repair.
Actually the welding was a response to the spalling encountered in battle, initially they were just riveted, battle reports caused them to weld ( it would have been quicker just to weld rather than rivet and weld. Unfortunately need to keep production lines flowing resulted in them being riveted and then "upgraded" after being finished )
In before this discussion ends up with Brits rolling around in Centurions by '41. 
It seems that majority of British tanks were of riveted construction during WW2, was there any reason for them not using welding instead?
I still see Cruiser tanks with Christie suspension, the doctrine still requires such vehicle, and the speeds that Christie suspension vehicles can achieve are certainly going to be seen as needed by the British. Still, they seem like they are going to end up with somewhat refined Valentine in service a bit earlier, so it is not as bad as it may seem at first. His work on it may cause some positive changes in regards to engines, even the Liberty engine could be made a bit more reliable with sufficient testing.
It seems that majority of British tanks were of riveted construction during WW2, was there any reason for them not using welding instead?
I still see Cruiser tanks with Christie suspension, the doctrine still requires such vehicle, and the speeds that Christie suspension vehicles can achieve are certainly going to be seen as needed by the British. Still, they seem like they are going to end up with somewhat refined Valentine in service a bit earlier, so it is not as bad as it may seem at first. His work on it may cause some positive changes in regards to engines, even the Liberty engine could be made a bit more reliable with sufficient testing.
It was the skillsets of who was making it ( welders were rare, riveters common ) , one of the issues with the Covenanter ( of which it had many ) was it was meant to be welded , the builder could only rivet so it ended up very overweight.In before this discussion ends up with Brits rolling around in Centurions by '41.
It seems that majority of British tanks were of riveted construction during WW2, was there any reason for them not using welding instead?
I still see Cruiser tanks with Christie suspension, the doctrine still requires such vehicle, and the speeds that Christie suspension vehicles can achieve are certainly going to be seen as needed by the British. Still, they seem like they are going to end up with somewhat refined Valentine in service a bit earlier, so it is not as bad as it may seem at first. His work on it may cause some positive changes in regards to engines, even the Liberty engine could be made a bit more reliable with sufficient testing.
It was also a new technology and thus viewed with suspicion by some plus riveting was simpler and cheaper. You also had labour issues, not only the lack of skilled workers as you mention, but also issues with unions who did not want to see their members who were riveters being replaced. Even the US M3 Lee/Grant tanks were riveted to start with.
Here's the thing. Yes Christie suspension has its problems however it is not bad per-se in a WW2 context. In fact in certain situations it's the best thing for the job.
Imagine if you will a Cromwell like tank armed with a 6 pound'er gun running around North Africa shooting up Italians and possibly Germans if the new speedy tanks dont over-run most of North Africa before the Germans can respond.
In fact i would say I don't care if the tank that is produced has Christie suspension, it needs to be reliable. That was the real Achilles heel of pretty much all WW2 British tanks.
Imagine if you will a Cromwell like tank armed with a 6 pound'er gun running around North Africa shooting up Italians and possibly Germans if the new speedy tanks dont over-run most of North Africa before the Germans can respond.
In fact i would say I don't care if the tank that is produced has Christie suspension, it needs to be reliable. That was the real Achilles heel of pretty much all WW2 British tanks.
I was trying to imagine the series of events which end up with British having Cromwells in N.A, and I have just came up with the most interesting ASB scenario...
As far as reliability is concerned, from what I managed to find out online, Valentine was rather well off in that regard, probably because it was not: a cruiser tank, or powered by Nuffield Liberty or repurposed Bus Engines.
It wasn't about members being replaced, it was about a loss of power and control. In shipbuilding at least riveters had an entirely union based training scheme, that meant it took ages to train anyone up and the supply of workers was in the control of the unions. You'd spend two years as an apprentice riveter, working on site and you still wouldn't be that quick at the end of it, it was reckoned an experienced team was anything up to 4x faster than an freshly qualified apprentice. And of course if you didn't express the correct pro-union views then you might not even qualify at all.
In contrast the employer could train a welder in a couple of months, in a classroom/workshop with no union input and the new worker would be maybe 90% as fast as an experienced welder. Of course the Unions hated that, it cut at one of the planks of their power-base, so use of welding always came with the threat of massive strikes from your existing riveters.
Maybe it was different in Vickers, but given their large shipbuilding interests I'd be amazed if the Unions weren't carefully watching the tanks side to make sure welding wasn't 'sneaking in' outside of their control.
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