Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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The 2 Pdr did have a HE capability. However, because of a dispute between the Armoured and Artillery corps, it was not issued to tanks. In 1943 the Australian Army, seeking an answer to Japanese log bunkers developed their own base fused HE round and trialed it against the British nose fused round. The base fuse round was superior to the nose fused round and adopted being issued from mid-1944 onwards. In the meantime, the British Army issued their HE rounds to their armoured car regiments where it was found with the Little John adapter mounted, they could not fire it. So, one vehicle in each troop of cars had the Little John squeeze bore adapter removed.

It was more down to doctrine of the day and the not insignificant fact that the 2 pound HE shell of the day contained .14 pounds or 63 grams of 'filler' he content - about that of a Mills hand Grenade.

Given that the biggest critique flouted about the lack of 2 pounder HE is tanks in the desert not being able to throw an HE round at dug in German anti tank guns - the fact that the 2 pound HE round would have been utterly useless in supressing anti tank guns seems to have been missed.

Pissing in the wind in actual effect!

In fact it is noted that even 5.5" shell fire struggled to knock out a dug in battery and by comparison 2" HE mortar fire had negligible effect on dug in forces - so for me its more a why bother with ineffective 2" HE shell's when they were better off carrying more AP for their principle day job.

A combined arms doctrine that allowed an armoured unit to call on artillery fire would have been many times better than issuing 2 pounder HE - and I imagine that is how the BA intended to fight in NW Europe - except in the desert - initially with the eclectic collection of 'come as you are' units from multiple armies, UK and Egyptian based BA formations and several commonwealth armies and 'trade unions' not working well together initially on a shoe string - this 'combined arms' never effectively happened with field expedient formations such as 'Jock Columns' and the like attempting to achieve this result until it did - which happily coincided with better weapons systems (making 2 pounder redundant) and the maturity of the wartime British army (1942)

I note that a number of examples were 2 pounder HE shell was expedited (and held as examples of what should have been done) are nearly always in cases where a better weapons system was unavailable - for example the Later war Aussies and the example of its use in Armoured car units who would be operating independently of a parent formation and needed some form of HE ASAP

Had the armoured units 'trade union' wanted 2 pounder HE shells I don't think that the Artillery 'Trade union' could have prevented them from getting it

I also draw the example of US M3 Stuarts in the Philippines whose 37mm guns also did not come supplied with HE shells, instead 'Macgyvered' up their own shells in early 42 - again its very likely that in the closer terrain of the Philippines and lacking more suitable weapons had to rely on them more than the British did in North Africa where their principle role regardless of weather they were an I or C tank remained that of taking on other tanks and AFVs by making 40mm holes in them.

Lastly while documentation on 2 pounder HE shells is confusing - some sources claim HE shells not produced until 1942 while other claim it was always available (although they may have been referring to APHE?).

My understanding of the lack of HE shells in British 2 pounder tanks is primarily because they did not want it and did not intend to use it and it was a poor HE shell anyway had they wanted it.

Not because Gen. Blimp (OBE VD and Scar) of the Royal Artillery decreed it
 
So you need a better gun?

Or a Birch Gun/self propelled assault gun that accompanies the tanks and rains down direct fire HE when required. This is sertainly doable in the late 30's we just need a brilliant British tank designer to make it happen!
 
Or a Birch Gun/self propelled assault gun that accompanies the tanks and rains down direct fire HE when required. This is sertainly doable in the late 30's we just need a brilliant British tank designer to make it happen!
That would be the close support tanks, if they'd reversed the ratio of HE to smoke rounds.


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The 2 Pdr did have a HE capability. However, because of a dispute between the Armoured and Artillery corps, it was not issued to tanks. In 1943 the Australian Army, seeking an answer to Japanese log bunkers developed their own base fused HE round and trialed it against the British nose fused round. The base fuse round was superior to the nose fused round and adopted being issued from mid-1944 onwards. In the meantime, the British Army issued their HE rounds to their armoured car regiments where it was found with the Little John adapter mounted, they could not fire it. So, one vehicle in each troop of cars had the Little John squeeze bore adapter removed.
There was no demarcation dispute. The tinned soldiers simply did not want a tiny HE round and felt that a 2 Pounder AP round dropped just short of a position would ricochet into it and do more harm. Wisely or no. My old Regiment's Daimlers all carried 2 Pounder HE and Little John AP shot but none used Little John adaptors. Nose fused HE suited the European needs better where they would meet AT and MGs in field positions whilst the Australians met theirs in prepared bunkers so they needed an HE round that could penetrate the bunker and then explode. A practical problem with the British HE round was that it was too long for the AP racks. The New Zealand solution to the same question as the Australians was to strip 3"CS guns off Matildas and kit out their Valentines with them. Ideal for close quarter HE use.
 

marathag

Banned
hat the 2 pound HE round would have been utterly useless in supressing anti tank guns seems to have been missed.
But it's better effect than MG fire or using AP to destroy the gun.

If Mills Grenades had such a small HE effect, why did they issue those?

And higher capacity HE shells could be done, like the Soviet 45mmUO-243A 135grams of HE.
 
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marathag

Banned
The tinned soldiers simply did not want a tiny HE round and felt that a 2 Pounder AP round dropped just short of a position would ricochet into it and do more harm
Missing the Canister that the US found so effective in the Pacific
I'm a believer in letting the Platoon Leader deciding what basic load was best.
 
L x W x H
A10 Tank
18ft 4" x 8ft 4" x 8ft 8"
Mk III ausf. E
17ft 8" x 9ft 6" x 8ft 2"

Not that different in size, but the Mk III is 19.5 tons to the 14.5 of the A10, with only 150 hp and 30mm armor over less of the vehicle, and 265hp in the III
I was thinking of the A11 when I wrote that but I always thought of the A9/10 and the Valentine as small tanks by WWII standards. As you say, they're a bit narrow (loading gauge!) but otherwise there's not a whole lot in it. What there are, though, is light - and underpowered even for their weight.
There's nothing wrong with the A10 that a better engine won't cure. Get it back up to the speed of the A9 and you've a tank that's good until late 1941 and if up gunned and armoured for another year.
Adding an extra ton-and-a-half to the A9 clobbered the already inadequate mobility, leaving the A10 with Crusader armour and Matilda speed. You'd need a much chunkier engine - around the 300hp range - to get an upgraded A10 up to cruiser mobility. Then you'd have to upgrade the transmission to handle that sort of power. Then you'd have to fit it in the hull. Then you get to find out if the suspension can take 18-20 tons at 25-30mph. The A10 had a horrible tendency to throw its tracks; the same basic suspension worked OK on the Valentine but that was 16 tons at 16mph. I suspect that by the time you'd worked it through, your drop-in engine replacement wouldn't be much easier or quicker than taking the engine and designing a new tank around it.

Or you could fudge it - shoehorn in a 200hp engine, get the road speed back up over 20mph, accept the increased maintenance and decreased reliability and tell yourself it basically works. That puts the British where they don't want to be in 1940 - with a tank that's marginally capable but already at its design limit with no potential for upgrade into 1941/2. Anything ordered in 1939 isn't going to reach the front before mid-1941 so the pre-war designs will have to carry the load into 1942. That means they need to have room to grow - and the British desperately need to get away from tanks that try to compensate for being severely underpowered by being severely underarmoured.
 
But it's better effect than MG fire or using AP to destroy the gun.

If Mills Grenades had such a small HE effect, why did they issue those?

And higher capacity HE shells could be done, like the Soviet 45mmUO-243A 135grams of HE.

Mills bomb was for Infantry to clear trenches and rooms - not to engage artillery at 1000 yards!

But you knew that.

But yes you can 'slow' the round not requiring such thick walls in order to increase the Explosive effect by allowing a greater % of weight to be used as filler

This is what the British ended up doing with the 17 pounder after it was found that thick walled shells not only contained far less explosives than the QF 75mm but tended to bury themselves due to the much higher MV - so given the number of 17 pounders in service and the distinct lack of tanks to shoot at they simply half filled the case with sand, produced a thinner walled HE shell and provided a revised sight.

Absolutely no reason why this could not be done with the 2 pounder

That being said I note that the Soviet UO-243/A HE shell is well over twice the weight of the 2 pounder HE shell 0.86 kg (1.9 lb) - and .14 pounds or 63 grams of filler verses 2.150 kgs (4.74 lb) with .3 pounds or 135 grams of filler for the Russian shell.

USSR DesignationUS AbbreviationBullet Weight [g]Muzzle Velocity [m/s]Description
UO-243
O-240
HE FRAG
2150​
343​
Long, thick walled shell filled 118g of TNT with KTM-1 nose fuze. Fuzes KT-1, KTMZ or M50 may be fitted as well. May also have two driving bands
UO-243A
O-240
HE FRAG2150343As above but with steel cartridge case. When the M50 fuze is fitted, HE filler mass is 135g and weight of projectile 1980g

So it would seem that the Russian shell is 'simply much bigger and heavier'

May be that's the answer - have a longer shell maybe?

Or have a bigger gun - which seems to have been the answer
 
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12 December 1936. 15:00hrs. Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. England.
12 December 1936. 15:00hrs. Newcastle-Upon-Tyne. England.

Colonel Justice Tilly, as Chief Instructor of the Royal Tank Corps at Bovington Camp, had been invited to come and inspect the work that was being done on the tanks that his trainee tank men would be working on in the future.

The Mark VI light tank, and its predecessors, were well known to the RTC, the latest model, the VIB had a few improvements over the Mark V and the Mark VIA, but still suffered, in Tilly’s mind with being top heavy and really only good for reconnaissance. The conversion of the cavalry regiments, for whom reconnaissance was one of their specialities, the tank was adequate. However, for screening and exploiting, the other two cavalry specialities, the two machine guns (.50 and .303 Vickers) were limited at best. The increase of armour to 14mm in the light tank suggested that the days of using a heavy machine gun against an equivalent vehicle was fading fast. What worried Tilly more was that it wasn’t only the mechanised cavalry regiments that were being equipped with the light tank. As these were the only tanks in full production all too many were ending up in the hands of people who needed a proper tank capable of taking on another tank.

He had been pleasantly surprised that when the Mark VI had been sent to Bovington a couple of Vickers employees had been sent down with it to help sort out the driving and maintenance manuals. This had helped speed up the process of making some changes to the production models which had improved some of the simple things that would make life easier for the soldiers fighting and maintaining the vehicle.

Next on the tour was the A9E2 which was at an advanced stage of its build. He’d seen the A9E1 at Farnborough, and was glad to see that the E2 had taken on board some of the criticisms of its predecessor. It looked like the new layout of the suspension would overcome the problems of it bouncing all over the place. Losing the two forward machine gun turrets gave the tank a better balance. The AEC engine that replaced the Rolls-Royce Phantom was also judged an improvement. Though to Tilly’s mind it only took the tank to its new limits of speed and armour, as the power didn’t have any spare capacity should the tank need to be upgraded again. He also took the chance to speak to the Vickers team about the tracks. The idea of ‘lubricated tracks’ was all very well in theory, but if there was one thing that tank crews hated above all was having to try to re-attached tracks that broke or threw themselves off the suspension. Being clever with tracks wasn’t about making them more complicated, it was much more about making them trustworthy and practical. He was happy to see some nods of agreement from his hosts.

His basic problem with the A9 was where it fitted into the scheme of things. The idea that was being floated around of ‘cruisers’ had come from a lecture Fuller had given which used naval categories to describe tanks types. The origin of this thinking went all the way back to the ‘Land Ship’ committee that had given birth to the tank in the first place. Tilly wasn’t impressed with the notion. If the A9 was to take its place in the army if fell between the stool of being a light reconnaissance tank like the Mark VI and a medium tank. Tilly was of the opinion that what was needed was a new and improved medium to replace the old Mark IIs that were obsolete. The Medium Mark IIIs and the A6 and A7s seemed to be going nowhere as far as Tilly could see, and the Vickers men nodded in agreement again.

In Tilly’s opinion creating a tank of around 7 to 10 tons wasn’t going to be big enough to do the job the RTC needed. Just about everybody was happy enough with the 2-pdr gun, as an anti-tank gun replacing the old 3-pdr, and the promised 25mph was impressive. It left the problem, like the Mark VI that it relied on speed rather than armour to keep it out of trouble. If the British army was introducing the 2-pdr as an anti-tank gun, then no doubt everyone else would have something in the 37-47mm range as their own AT gun. Having armour only of 14mm to protect it seemed ludicrous. While the E2, with the weight saving of losing the two turrets and one gunner meant that some more armour could be fitted around more vulnerable spots, Tilly still thought it was too little.

Which brought them to the A10E1. This prototype was due to be displayed in the Spring and Tilly was the first man outside of Vickers to have a good look at it. The decision had been taken to make two models initially, the difference being in the engines. The first was as specified, a single AEC bus engine, the same as in the A9. Since the A10, would weigh something like 14 tons fully loaded, the design team were sure that, like the underpowered A9E1, this would be just as unsatisfactory. With 30mm of armour it was a bit more like what Tilly was arguing for, but it would lose the kind of speed that the A9 promised. That was why Vickers was making the second model. There had been a lot of debate amongst the design team about this. The company managers, aware of costs, wanted to look at simply creating a double AEC engine. By putting two engines in, it would theoretically double the power available. However, it posed a fairly serious engineering challenge. Working out how to keep the two engines working harmoniously would be difficult and probably would be a nightmare in the field. With this Tilly strongly agreed.

The second prototype was going to be a bit longer than the first, 19 feet like the A9, needed because the engine was one of the Rolls-Royce Eagle IXs that had been acquired. No one was suggesting that this was what would actually be the engine of choice, it was out of production, but it would answer the question of whether an aero-engine could be used to power a tank, giving it the kind of power to weight ratio required. A third choice had also been suggested which was the original idea in the old A6 specification was to use a Thornycroft RY 12 marine engine developing about 500hp.

The question that Tilly immediately asked was about the range these tanks would have. He could only imagine that either of these powerful beasts would be thirsty creatures. A tank that had to stop every hour to be refuelled wasn’t going to be much use to anybody. He was informed that the A9 was rated for about 120 miles radius of action on roads. The A10 with the same engine would be a bit less, with the bigger engine, and bigger size, allowing a larger fuel tank, it was hoped the radius would be nearer 140 miles. There were too many ‘maybes’ and ‘hoped for’ in that answer for Tilly’s ease of mind. At least they knew that the longer a tank could be in action with enough fuel and ammunition, and crew that weren’t terribly inconvenienced by cramped and difficult conditions within the tank, the better. It that lesson hadn’t been learned from the early days of tanks in 1916-18, then they should all give up and go home.

Talking of tanks from the days of Cambrai and the 100 days, they came to the A11E1. Progress on the E2 was still in the early stages. Tilly had seen the A11’s demonstrations at Farnborough and wondered about what had happened to the last twenty years. If it sat beside a Whippet tank it wouldn’t look as if much progress had been made at all. At this point Sir John Carden joined the group and invited Tilly to join him when he’d finished the tour of the plant, there were a couple of questions that he’s like to ask him. Tilly was happy to oblige and it seemed a good time to have a look at the drawings for the A11E2 that Carden had in his office.

The two men had met before on a couple of occasions and had many mutual friends and acquaintances. A couple of pink gins arrived and Carden showed him what he hoped was a slightly more acceptable infantry support tank. He wanted once more to replace the Meadows engine which the AEC bus engine, providing the A11 with a bit more power again. Putting in 135hp rather than 88hp would propel the tank at something more than a cross-country runner’s pace, even with the bigger turret’s weight. Tilly liked the idea of the 40mm semi-automatic gun. Supporting infantry was something that an HE shell would be better at than simply a machine gun. With the pink gin loosening the inhibitions, that gave Carden the chance to ask one of his outstanding questions.

It seemed to him, looking at the direction the War Office were going that the A11 and A12 specifications for infantry support tanks, well protected themselves, but carrying only machine guns or the 2-pdr. The old Great War machines, at least the males, carried a six pounder to deal with well protected defences. Surely there was an argument for a gun that could provide a reasonable HE capability? To Justice Tilly’s mind, Carden was straying into what many regarded as heretical thinking. The fight to keep the Royal Tank Corps alive, when the Machine Gun Corps had been suppressed after the war, meant that doctrine about the right use of tanks had become not dissimilar to Christian doctrine. There was orthodoxy and heresy, and quite a few popes in the tanking fraternity who wouldn’t be slow to condemn the heretics.

The example cited by Carden was that he was meant to design two different turrets for the A9 and A10, one carrying the 2-pdr and another for Close Support tanks that was to be fitted with the QF 3.7inch howitzer. This fired a half-decent 20lb shell, but with limited range, and as Carden understood it, was really only used to fire off smoke shells. Colonel Justice Tilly, as Chief Instructor at Bovington, felt he had to defend the orthodoxy. Tanks, with the exception of the light reconnaissance machines, were to fight tanks, whether in support of infantry being attacked by tanks or in manoeuvre warfare. What counted was the ability to defeat enemy armour. If fixed defences were a problem, then the artillery would be called on to suppress it, the infantry overcome it, and the tanks would then exploit the gap.

Carden noted that this wasn’t quite the same as the 100 days offensive at the end of the Great War. There the combined efforts of all, infantry, artillery, tanks, and even aircraft, were utilised together to defeat the Germans. This seemed to have given way to Fuller’s navy battles on land, where light units, like destroyers sniffed out the enemy, then the cruisers were the fast and hard hitting force, backed up by battlecruisers or heavy battleships. The War Plan of 1919 had never been put to the test, and Carden wondered if the Russians, French or even Germans were playing from the same textbook.

What amazed Tilly was that Carden then brought out a sketch book. He admitted looking at the A12 specification that Vulcan Foundry were working on and wondered what his own notion might be. He had drawn up some ideas. Fundamentally he had taken the A10 to its logical conclusion. He had one drawing with the current suspension, another using Horstmann’s system. Powered with an engine producing 500hp, it would have to grow beyond the current limitations of rail transport. A wider body would allow a larger turret ring, which would give the possibility of having a bigger gun than the currently sufficient 2-pdr.

According to Martel’s report from Moscow, the Soviet T-28 was armed with a 76.2mm howitzer. There were two British 3-inch guns which provided the same calibre. There was howitzer and an anti-aircraft gun. The 3-inch anti-aircraft gun was being replaced by the newly designed 3.7-inch gun, meaning that the 3-inch 20 cwt AA gun was going to be surplus to requirement. Carden reckoned he could knock a fair few cwt off a tank mounting, but the turret would need to be pretty large. The muzzle velocity and the size of the shell would be a match even for the big new French tanks that were starting to appear. It might cause some problems for the gunner, but it could easily take an anti-tank round as well as the HE round it was designed for. The Ordnance QF 3-inch howitzer was developed from the QF 13-pdr of Great War vintage. Both these options would require a very big turret, and that was probably some way off the War Office’s list of requirements.

Which brought Tilly and Carden to another set of drawings. In this case he was looking for an intermediate solution, and he had looked to the past for inspiration. The 6-pdr gun on the male Mark I tanks had started life as a naval gun, and Vickers and Woolwich still have the capability to manufacture guns in 57mm. The early tank 6-pdr gun was a cut down version, L23 barrels compared with the naval L40 barrels. A modern version would surely provide tanks with a gun to replace the 2-pdr. If the A11 and A12 were anything to go by, to say nothing of the French tanks, then more powerful guns were going to be needed, and if they were capable of firing both a good anti-tank and HE shell, then so much the better, surely? If that was the case, then it may well be necessary to design a follow on to the A10 which would have more than the 60-70mm armour of the A11 and A12, with a big enough turret ring to mount bigger guns as they came along. 500hp engines might need to grow too, and it certainly seemed the way things were going in the aero-engine sector, more and more powerful engines were being designed for aircraft to fly faster and carry more load.

So, the drawing that he had spent the most time, going from the detailed drawings was the an A10, lengthened and widened, a raised engine compartment for the bigger engine, around a 60-inch turret ring, and a long barrelled 6-pdr gun. Tilly noted the figures of 80mm armour on the front and turret, 70mm on the sides, an overall weight of around 20 tons. The turret was wider, bulging outward to provide more elbow room presumably. He noted that the gun was on an external mantlet. Another heresy was hidden here. British tank gunners fired on the move. A large part of the training was RYPA, Roll, Yaw and Pitch Apparatus, not unlike their naval cousins dealing with all the movements of a ship at sea. The traverse mechanism of the turret was matched by an elevation controlled by the gunner’s shoulder, and therefore of the steadiness of the ride of the tank was important. The gun had to be finely balanced about the trunnions, meaning that a greater inboard length of the gun. An external mantlet meant that Cardin was designing a geared elevation system for his improved A10.

When asked about it, Carding simply remarked that the Close Support 3.7-inch howitzer required the geared elevation. It simply meant that a larger gun wouldn’t be able to be manipulated by the gunner’s shoulder, therefore it made sense to put the balance further forward, allowing more space in the turret for gun recoil and ease of loading. Surely firing from a stationary position was more inherently accurate than firing on the move? Besides, if war came and a great many new trainees were to become tank gunners how much time and effort on RYPA would have to put into that training compared with learning a much simpler geared elevation coupled with the traverse system? Tilly found himself grinding his teeth, this man would need to be kept far away from Percy Hobart.

Another pink gin later and Carden showed off some more of his flights of fancy as he called them. Using the same basic platform of the improved A10, Carden had tried to imagine how the new artillery piece, the 25-pdr might be conveyed like the old Birch gun system. It seemed odd, but he had reversed it, so that barrel was over the engine compartment at the rear. Instead of a turret, the gun and its crew would basically fill the fighting compartment, and the sides of the tank would be built up to give them some protection against counter-battery fire. He had a few ideas about improving the notion of the universal carrier, using the Dragon tractor as a basis for carrying a squad of infantrymen under the shelter of steel following their own artillery closer than possible if walking, and falling on the enemies’ positions before they could react. In another drawing he had an anti-aircraft gun mounted on a tracked base. These were all ideas that Tilly recognised from the various permutations of the Experimental Mechanical Force and wondered whether he’d see the possibilities that had engendered brought to birth. Carden’s drawings suggested that it might just come about, God and His Majesty’s Treasury allowing.
 
FYI: The idea for this comes from this quote according to A J Smithers Rude Mechanicals, pg 42 of Kindle edition.:
"Work continued on the A9. Colonel Justice Tilly, a founder member of the Tank Corps, was permitted to inspect it, in his capacity as Chief Instructor at Bovington. He described it succinctly in a letter to Lindsay*, now banished to India in accordance with the usual practice. 'It's a dud. Too small for cross-country work, the crew are too cramped to work their weapons or wireless; it bounces like a rubber ball; the tracks come off.' Interestingly Tilly mentions a conversation with 'Roseway, a WO financier.' The Treasury, it seemed, were quite willing to find whatever money the tank people needed, if only the General Staff could make up their minds what they wanted. For the new light tank, the Mk VI, Tilly had little good to say. He was not alone in this."
*Lindsay was Inspector Royal Tank Corps, War office 1925-29 during which the Experimental Mechanical Force was created.
 
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Good update. Shows how the wheels may turn. I am wondering about the order Carden showed his potential tanks to Tilly. Going from a 40mm gun to a 76.2mm one is a pretty big leap. Whilst the logic is relatively sound I would have thought, given that this is obviously pre-planned, he would have shown the intermediate 6 pounder tank first. Then you can say but wait their is more, this design can easily take a 6 pounder but will also be able to take any larger guns we need. Lure Tilly in with a good design then tempt him with something better?

Like I say, good update though, please, keep them coming.
 
Actually some other thoughts.

I assume that the armour thicknesses were the same on both tank sketches so 80mm front and 70mm side?

What was the size of the turret ring on the 3-inch gun drawing tank? If its 65 inches that's good for the war, if it's say 67ish then you really are golden. If it is 60 inches then upgradeability will become tighter down the line.

The OTL 3inch tank mounting was what, 12ish pounds at 2500fps. That's really not bad even late war and any tank that can take that gun will probably be able to take something bigger at a push.

I can see a potential conflict arising in the Army. Tilly pushing for Carden's new "universal" tank and Martel pushing his own Christie scheme. Why do I see a compromise coming?
 

Driftless

Donor
A bit of an indirect attack at the rail-gauge limitations.... Have Carden, or one of the military chiefs press for greater numbers of the Scammel Pioneer as tank transporter. Sell the military chiefs on the increased flexibility and sell the Treasury on overall savings from limiting wear-and-tear on tanks and rail loading/unloading facilities.
Scammell%2BTRMU30%2B088.JPG
 
Good update. Shows how the wheels may turn. I am wondering about the order Carden showed his potential tanks to Tilly. Going from a 40mm gun to a 76.2mm one is a pretty big leap. Whilst the logic is relatively sound I would have thought, given that this is obviously pre-planned, he would have shown the intermediate 6 pounder tank first. Then you can say but wait their is more, this design can easily take a 6 pounder but will also be able to take any larger guns we need. Lure Tilly in with a good design then tempt him with something better?

Like I say, good update though, please, keep them coming.
Actually some other thoughts.

I assume that the armour thicknesses were the same on both tank sketches so 80mm front and 70mm side?

What was the size of the turret ring on the 3-inch gun drawing tank? If its 65 inches that's good for the war, if it's say 67ish then you really are golden. If it is 60 inches then upgradeability will become tighter down the line.

The OTL 3inch tank mounting was what, 12ish pounds at 2500fps. That's really not bad even late war and any tank that can take that gun will probably be able to take something bigger at a push.

I can see a potential conflict arising in the Army. Tilly pushing for Carden's new "universal" tank and Martel pushing his own Christie scheme. Why do I see a compromise coming?
The 3" 16 cwt which was the tank version of the 20 cwt for the Churchill gun carriers had a MV of 2800 fps (853 m/s) and shot a 12.5lb projectile, about 1.5kg lighter than US 3" M7. Penetration was similar if not slightly better with 120mm at normal at over 600 yards. That said the gun weighed 1000kg (M7 900kg), so it will be quite difficult to use in an enclosed turret and while it can work for emergency/testing purposes or in an open turret, you probably want a modernized gun with lighter weight ala 76 M1.

Regarding the 6pdr tank with a lot of armor, I'm afraid that's gonna be closer to 30 tons rather than 20 with technology of the day, as the uparmoured Cromwell proposals were about this heavy with a similar gun, turret ring diameter, engine and sometimes suspension. The turret had straight walls too.

Btw, a British tank proposal would probably use imperial measurements when thick armor is involved.

I noticed that the RR Eagle IX is quite large for its power. Luckily the A10 has plenty of "rear space" that can be added and it's just a proof of concept but the Brits will definitely need something more modern.
 
The 3" 16 cwt which was the tank version of the 20 cwt for the Churchill gun carriers had a MV of 2800 fps (853 m/s) and shot a 12.5lb projectile, about 1.5kg lighter than US 3" M7. Penetration was similar if not slightly better with 120mm at normal at over 600 yards. That said the gun weighed 1000kg (M7 900kg), so it will be quite difficult to use in an enclosed turret and while it can work for emergency/testing purposes or in an open turret, you probably want a modernized gun with lighter weight ala 76 M1.

Regarding the 6pdr tank with a lot of armor, I'm afraid that's gonna be closer to 30 tons rather than 20 with technology of the day, as the uparmoured Cromwell proposals were about this heavy with a similar gun, turret ring diameter, engine and sometimes suspension. The turret had straight walls too.

Btw, a British tank proposal would probably use imperial measurements when thick armor is involved.

I noticed that the RR Eagle IX is quite large for its power. Luckily the A10 has plenty of "rear space" that can be added and it's just a proof of concept but the Brits will definitely need something more modern.

The 3inch gun is probably OK for tank use for now. I don't think it will actually see service but as a proof of concept it is probably ideal, just the fact you can fit a gun that big on a Tank will raise eyebrows and will likely at least push tank and gun development down that path.

If Vickers can get rid of riveting that will save a lot of weight. so 25 tons isn't out of the question.

Using the Eagle is probably Ideal again as the engine actually chosen will fit and you can go bigger down the line.
 
I am still searching for a prohibition limiting width due to rail gauging. Delivery of tanks to units or embarkation ports can be done using routes that allow a greater width than the minimum standard. Operationally they are for use on the Continent where rail gauges are wider. I am happy to be disabused but I am suspecting that this is a self inflicted wound by the tinned soldiers who simply asked 'what width can a tank be to be transported universally around the UK'?
 
Going to welding is technically a major improvement but the country is short of heavy duty welding plant and staff. What there is will be pulled towards the shipyards. Taking that excellent road demands some form of either government investment in heavy duty welding plant manufacture and training and/or some method of locking both plant and staff into the AFV industries in time of war. The shipyards will come waving many pound notes at welders. Also the armour makers will need to ensure that they are offering armour sheet that is suitable for welding in an AFV. What can Vickers do being a major general engineering group? If they move into welded warships then the AFVs can tag along.
 
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