Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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Was the Vickers 40mm gun in the export tanks for Lithuania the same gun as the Pom-Pom? Regardless if it is or isn't, why couldn't Vickers pick this gun itself? Did Vickers' gun branch have enough capacity to produce Vickers 40mm guns for themselves?
And a last thing, Vickers was working in the late 30s on the 'S' aircraft gun based on the same cartridge as the pompom. This was eventually used on some Hurricanes. Would this modern gun offer any advantage over the regular pompom in tank use, if it was even practical?
allanpcameron
Donor
TBH I'm not entirely sure they are the same gun. There are various sources that talk about Vicker's own 2-pdr. The one that was on the Latvian tank, but I'm basing it on a comment made by Carden in his handwritten notes about the original A11, "We can try our idea of the M/C gun but this is not so urgent". As I said in post 121:
"Not sure what M/C actually stands for, but I went for Machine/Cannon, which took me to the pompom gun. Am prepared to be corrected."
The reason they can't pick the gun themselves is that the Director of Artillery is Director of all Artillery in British use, it would be his decision what guns are used by British forces.
They were producing the pompoms for the navy in large quantities, so yes, I guess they could do it.
I think the S gun is a bit later than this, that's my reading of it anyway.
Allan
Great update. Quite a lot going on in this one.
With Orders for the Valiant coming in a month sooner than the Valentine that should see the Valiant start to roll off the production lines in March or April 40 so early enough to be rushed to France in limited numbers. Given the expected initial production numbers of 40 a month the entire order will be completed in 13 months or just under. That and the likelihood of increased producers and wartime orders along with the tank factories could well see production numbers hit three figures a month before the end of 1940. That is a massive game changer for Britain.
The petrol Valiant 1* is interesting. I wasn't expecting that outcome. My suspicion was that the Valiant would be pushed into the Cruiser role in North Africa by dint of it being available and prove itself due to it's reliability allowing it to keep up with the "faster" cruisers. Basically Britain would have stumbled onto the universal tank accidentally. That could still happen here but will be interesting to see how the whole situation plays out.
I need a post about Vickers new gun. The fallout and shock of it's likely performance not just in terms of HE throwing ability but also AP ability will be quite something. It should also be getting to the point of nearly being ready now. If it takes some pressure off 2pdr production then it may get adopted fairly quickly.
How are Napier reacting to all of this. The current order for Valiant's uses up the entire stock of Lion's Vickers has pretty much. Napier must know more orders are very likely and they could be large orders. The temptation to cut their losses on the Sabre and just crank out Lion's, either petrol or diesel, must be very high. The could also possibly be looking at variations of the Lion for other uses, thinks like a V8 and V6 derived from it as well as a flat 4 could all be very useful and good sellers. The impact on aircraft engine production could be massive but I really don't want to derail the thread talking about it.
With Orders for the Valiant coming in a month sooner than the Valentine that should see the Valiant start to roll off the production lines in March or April 40 so early enough to be rushed to France in limited numbers. Given the expected initial production numbers of 40 a month the entire order will be completed in 13 months or just under. That and the likelihood of increased producers and wartime orders along with the tank factories could well see production numbers hit three figures a month before the end of 1940. That is a massive game changer for Britain.
The petrol Valiant 1* is interesting. I wasn't expecting that outcome. My suspicion was that the Valiant would be pushed into the Cruiser role in North Africa by dint of it being available and prove itself due to it's reliability allowing it to keep up with the "faster" cruisers. Basically Britain would have stumbled onto the universal tank accidentally. That could still happen here but will be interesting to see how the whole situation plays out.
I need a post about Vickers new gun. The fallout and shock of it's likely performance not just in terms of HE throwing ability but also AP ability will be quite something. It should also be getting to the point of nearly being ready now. If it takes some pressure off 2pdr production then it may get adopted fairly quickly.
How are Napier reacting to all of this. The current order for Valiant's uses up the entire stock of Lion's Vickers has pretty much. Napier must know more orders are very likely and they could be large orders. The temptation to cut their losses on the Sabre and just crank out Lion's, either petrol or diesel, must be very high. The could also possibly be looking at variations of the Lion for other uses, thinks like a V8 and V6 derived from it as well as a flat 4 could all be very useful and good sellers. The impact on aircraft engine production could be massive but I really don't want to derail the thread talking about it.
Excellent stuff but never underestimate the power of Official and doctrinal stupidity to get in the way of a good idea. Hence the Mark I* which will still be better armoured than the base Panzer III's they'll encounter and the Panzer IV's as well but that might give the Panzer III a greater chance at a longer range rather than having to get VERY close to the standard Valiant to stand a chance with its 37. But something tells me the large number of Matilda's with their 40mm pom-poms will be a deeply unpleasant surprise. Its not the best AT weapon in the world, and an inferior hole puncher to the 2lber, but against infantry and the smaller tanks like the Panzer I and II, it'll be a terror. And against the Panzer III as well if they get into a gun fight as the Panzer's gun will not penetrate a Matilda's armour at long or medium range and if it has to come close that just means the pom-pom will be able to punch through.
True, but the I* is also going to be better-armoured than the other cruisers, so units with them will prove tougher to go through than OTL.
If you took 25mm of armour (a full inch) of the front of the Valiant it still has 45mm (1.75 inches) of armour. A full 50% increase on the best the Germans have whilst being faster and better armed. The main problem will likely be reduced radius of action and increased pars wear from the higher speeds on parts not designed for that sort of stress.
Even then still a remarkable tank.
I think you are being a bit premature with getting Valiants to France by Mid may. Remember these are new tanks. You don't just drive them up to the nearest tank regt and drop them off and have them in battle the next day.
The first month or two of production will go to the Tank training depots where the instructors will have to spend time on them so they know where the various switches are, how to get at the engine the best way, what recoil is there in the turret and the best way to avoid the gun movement. Drivers will be looking at the best way to change gears, steer, and all those little things. Then the maintenance routine. Then the manuals have to be written.
Only then do the new crews come in and start training. And that will take a few weeks if not months.
My guess is even if they start delivering in March, you would be likely to see the instructors have that lot for two - three weeks at a minimum. Then a three to four week training course for the new crews who are already trained in tank warfare to learn everything about their new mounts, including range practices. They need to work together to decide on the new tactics that the new gun and better armour and better speed allow them to achieve.
I frankly don't see them getting to France before Dunkirk if at all.
allanpcameron
Donor
So I came across this in P M Knight's A13 Mk I & Mk II Cruiser Tanks A Technical History. Black Prince Publications 2019 page 105-6:
I'm not entirely sure that answers your question. It also throws a negative light on what I had taken to be Vickers 2-pdr as the pompom, which was accepted and used by the Navy. Perhaps the Latvian tank used this rejected 2-pdr and my original understanding of Carden's "M/C gun" is wrong.
Earlier in the book (page 3), Clarke is senior military member of the Ordnance Committee. It talks about the race between the increasing penetrative ability of anti-tank weapons and the corresponding increase in the armour thickness needed to defeat them. Martel considered that this was a race that the anti-tank gunwas always going to win, and in this respect his thoughts were completely in accord with those of EMC Clarke at Woolwich, "who had vociferously argued against the development of Infantry tanks. Both men were also of the belief that the best protection for a tank was therefore speed and mobility." All this was in the context of the design of the A9 and A10 by Carden and Vickers, which were too slow, and increasing the armour of the A10 wouldn't therefore help as it slowed the tank. TBH there is probably more to it than all that but Knight's book is excellent, but suffers from having no index, so I'm having to scan and skim to find what I've noted as interesting/useful.
While its looking unlikely that we'll get a working formation of Valiants in France by May, would it be reasonable to have say a smaller number- a few dozen - of the early production sent over for the troops to familiarise themselves with them in France? Or would the insistence in trying to train in England first get in the way?
Like I've said before in the thread the only Valiants that're likely to be in France are a handful (< 10) in rear area depots being demonstrated to the troops. (This is what you'll be using in 6 months, if you're lucky. Don't hold your breath).
marathag
Banned
they nearly did that with the Matilda II OTL and some of the other Cruisers in France
The Soviets made a habit of it, driving new tanks straight from the factory to the front line.
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