Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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I wonder how the Cruiser line of tanks will change due to the Valiant. The Covenantor first Crusaders will probably be the same as OTL but when the 6 Pdr enters service there is a chance for something different. I'd like to see the Covenantor cancelled once the fact it's a dog's breakfast is realised and the production facilities used to build more Valiants.
 
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I wonder how the Cruiser line of tanks will change due to the Valiant. The Covenantor first Crusaders will probably be the same as OTL but when the 6 Pdr enters service there is a chance for something different. I'd like to see the Covenantor cancelled once the fact it's a dog's breakfast is realised and the production facilities used to build more Valiants.
Well I think heavier armour is likely to be specified for everything after the A10 at the very least.
 
So the A15 Crusader probably emerges as the Mk II version with 49mm Armour and the 2 Pdr gun, which is going to stress the already marginal Liberty engine. I doubt there'd be a second version. Something like the Cromwell will probably enter development quickly if the 6 Pdr isn't delayed.
 
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So the A15 Crusader probably emerges as the Mk II version with 49mm Armour and the 2 Pdr gun, which is going to stress the already marginal Liberty engine. I doubt there'd be a second version. Something like the Cromwell will probably enter development quickly if the 6 Pdr isn't delayed.
Meh, TBH you'd get a better cruiser by thinning down the armour of the Valiant than trying to up-armour anything coming out on Nuffield. I mean, the 60" turret ring alone is better than any OTL British tank prior to the A.30 Challenger, plus the Valiant uses welded armour.
 
Meh, TBH you'd get a better cruiser by thinning down the armour of the Valiant than trying to up-armour anything coming out on Nuffield. I mean, the 60" turret ring alone is better than any OTL British tank prior to the A.30 Challenger, plus the Valiant uses welded armour.
The A30 Challenger didn't use a turret ring. It used a turret pivot. The gun was balanced on a pivot and the turret was hung off the gun. It rested on the hull uppersurface but unlike a turret ring, the "ring" as such performed no structural function. It was just a circular openning in the hull top.
 
The A30 Challenger didn't use a turret ring. It used a turret pivot. The gun was balanced on a pivot and the turret was hung off the gun. It rested on the hull uppersurface but unlike a turret ring, the "ring" as such performed no structural function. It was just a circular openning in the hull top.
Okay, any British tank prior to Comet.
 
In term of an Assault tank, the AT-2 could be an interesting start. Even if it was a Nuffield design.
 
1 May 1939. Wolverhampton. England.
1 May 1939. Wolverhampton. England.

The 2nd Dragoon Guards, the Queen’s Bays, had been assigned the first few of the new Light Tank (Wheeled), designed and built by Guy Motors of Wolverhampton. This was basically a four wheeled drive armoured car, but because its turret was fully enclosed, with the same armament as the Vickers Mark VI light tanks, it had been renamed as a Wheeled Tank.

With a body made of 14 mm of armour, its centralised driving compartment was in front of the main superstructure which mounted a square turret with the Vickers .5-inch and .303 machine guns. It was the first fully welded vehicle brought into service by the British army. The welding made it better protected against small arms and more waterproof, thus being able to ford water bodies easier. Welding even made the vehicle slightly lighter. In addition, it made the vehicle a lot cheaper and quicker to build. The welding technique developed by Guy Motors was then given to the War Office, for free. This had brought Sir John Carden and a team from Vickers-Armstrong to have a look at what Guy Motors had done.

The experience of welding the prototype A10E1 tank had thrown up a number of problems and the team from Vickers were keen to see how the Wolverhampton company had resolved them. The tour of the factory coincided with the completion of one of the Wheeled Tanks. They were walked through the entire process and Carden was impressed with the way both the management and workers were happy to share their expertise and experience. If war came, as it seemed more and more likely, this kind of sharing of ideas and openness would be highly valued.

The Vickers-Armstrong board of directors had been aware for some time, when looking at how the War Office were involving so many other companies in the manufacture of tanks, that the companies being chosen tended to be engineering firms that had less than full order books. The really successful engineering firms were so busy with their civilian orders that they had no spare capacity for military orders. The reason that companies like Vulcan Foundry and some of the locomotive manufacturers had spare capacity was that they hadn’t modernised their plant or working practises. The way the A12 was designed was a case in point, it was extremely slow to build because it tended to use outdated, but highly skilled methods.

With Vulcan Foundry as the ‘parent firm’ a number of other companies were making sub-assemblies, so that large pieces of tanks, like hulls or turrets, were having to moved from one part of the country to another, before final assembly. Since standardisation wasn’t something that these companies were well versed in, the ‘craftsmanship’ of fitting together two pieces that didn’t fit was necessary. All of this was highly inefficient. What made it worse was it was hampered all too often by the lack of quality control, all of which meant that a tank might take too long to build, be unreliable, heavier than it needed to be, and more expensive.

What Guy Motors had shown with the Wheeled Tank, which they called the Ant, was a company that had evolved and had therefore produced a vehicle for the army that was all the better for the new techniques. When looking at improving the tank shop at Chertsey, the Vickers team were taking notes of some of Guy Motor’s systems. Getting to see the Ant up close gave Carden a feeling that his decision to press for the Valiant to be a completely welded tank was along the right tracks. The up-front investment in a new factory, training of new employees and the specialised equipment for welding would be expensive. What Carden firmly believed, and the Board of Directors needed to be persuaded of, was that the investment wouldn’t just be good for the company, it would be good for the country.

The problems that Vickers Armstrong had experienced with building the welded A10E1 were similar to the problems that Guy Motors had had to resolve, and the Vickers team were impressed by their solutions. There was obviously going to be differences between welding the light tank armour of 14mm to the much thicker armour planned for the Valiant. The Guy Motors methodology however was applicable even to the heavier armour plate, they were even prepared to made a demonstration for their visitors.

This was the final piece of the puzzle, and the report given to the Board of Directors about the visit to Wolverhampton pressed for Chertsey tank shop improvements to have welding as its primary method of tank manufacture. There would also have to be a further expansion of the associated steel works to meet demand for armour plate. Eventually Elswick would be able to follow the move to welding, and with all the Shadow Factories being built for the RAF, the War Office would probably be persuaded to repeat what they had done at Elswick. In that case Vickers Armstrong met 40% of the costs of the improvements to the tank shop, the War Office met the other 60%. It was also proposed that the Chertsey site should be big enough for the expected increase in orders for tanks should war break out. The ability to build 100-120 tanks per month that seemed ludicrous just last year, was looking more and more necessary.
 
1 May 1939. Wolverhampton. England.

The 2nd Dragoon Guards, the Queen’s Bays, had been assigned the first few of the new Light Tank (Wheeled), designed and built by Guy Motors of Wolverhampton. This was basically a four wheeled drive armoured car, but because its turret was fully enclosed, with the same armament as the Vickers Mark VI light tanks, it had been renamed as a Wheeled Tank.

With a body made of 14 mm of armour, its centralised driving compartment was in front of the main superstructure which mounted a square turret with the Vickers .5-inch and .303 machine guns. It was the first fully welded vehicle brought into service by the British army. The welding made it better protected against small arms and more waterproof, thus being able to ford water bodies easier. Welding even made the vehicle slightly lighter. In addition, it made the vehicle a lot cheaper and quicker to build. The welding technique developed by Guy Motors was then given to the War Office, for free. This had brought Sir John Carden and a team from Vickers-Armstrong to have a look at what Guy Motors had done.

The experience of welding the prototype A10E1 tank had thrown up a number of problems and the team from Vickers were keen to see how the Wolverhampton company had resolved them. The tour of the factory coincided with the completion of one of the Wheeled Tanks. They were walked through the entire process and Carden was impressed with the way both the management and workers were happy to share their expertise and experience. If war came, as it seemed more and more likely, this kind of sharing of ideas and openness would be highly valued.

The Vickers-Armstrong board of directors had been aware for some time, when looking at how the War Office were involving so many other companies in the manufacture of tanks, that the companies being chosen tended to be engineering firms that had less than full order books. The really successful engineering firms were so busy with their civilian orders that they had no spare capacity for military orders. The reason that companies like Vulcan Foundry and some of the locomotive manufacturers had spare capacity was that they hadn’t modernised their plant or working practises. The way the A12 was designed was a case in point, it was extremely slow to build because it tended to use outdated, but highly skilled methods.

With Vulcan Foundry as the ‘parent firm’ a number of other companies were making sub-assemblies, so that large pieces of tanks, like hulls or turrets, were having to moved from one part of the country to another, before final assembly. Since standardisation wasn’t something that these companies were well versed in, the ‘craftsmanship’ of fitting together two pieces that didn’t fit was necessary. All of this was highly inefficient. What made it worse was it was hampered all too often by the lack of quality control, all of which meant that a tank might take too long to build, be unreliable, heavier than it needed to be, and more expensive.

What Guy Motors had shown with the Wheeled Tank, which they called the Ant, was a company that had evolved and had therefore produced a vehicle for the army that was all the better for the new techniques. When looking at improving the tank shop at Chertsey, the Vickers team were taking notes of some of Guy Motor’s systems. Getting to see the Ant up close gave Carden a feeling that his decision to press for the Valiant to be a completely welded tank was along the right tracks. The up-front investment in a new factory, training of new employees and the specialised equipment for welding would be expensive. What Carden firmly believed, and the Board of Directors needed to be persuaded of, was that the investment wouldn’t just be good for the company, it would be good for the country.

The problems that Vickers Armstrong had experienced with building the welded A10E1 were similar to the problems that Guy Motors had had to resolve, and the Vickers team were impressed by their solutions. There was obviously going to be differences between welding the light tank armour of 14mm to the much thicker armour planned for the Valiant. The Guy Motors methodology however was applicable even to the heavier armour plate, they were even prepared to made a demonstration for their visitors.

This was the final piece of the puzzle, and the report given to the Board of Directors about the visit to Wolverhampton pressed for Chertsey tank shop improvements to have welding as its primary method of tank manufacture. There would also have to be a further expansion of the associated steel works to meet demand for armour plate. Eventually Elswick would be able to follow the move to welding, and with all the Shadow Factories being built for the RAF, the War Office would probably be persuaded to repeat what they had done at Elswick. In that case Vickers Armstrong met 40% of the costs of the improvements to the tank shop, the War Office met the other 60%. It was also proposed that the Chertsey site should be big enough for the expected increase in orders for tanks should war break out. The ability to build 100-120 tanks per month that seemed ludicrous just last year, was looking more and more necessary.

The Guy Armoured Car or Wheeled Tank was initially considered a bit of a failure. Why? Because the welding tended to fracture the armour plates which they used. It was unique because they developed a rotating jig which contained all the plates and allowed them to weld it in one piece. It was definitely the way forward but Guy just couldn't get it right in the first 10 or so armoured cars they produced.
 
The Guy Armoured Car or Wheeled Tank was initially considered a bit of a failure. Why? Because the welding tended to fracture the armour plates which they used. It was unique because they developed a rotating jig which contained all the plates and allowed them to weld it in one piece. It was definitely the way forward but Guy just couldn't get it right in the first 10 or so armoured cars they produced.
10 fails is pretty good to be honest, the first 150 or so M48 Pattons had such deficient armor that they were only used in training.

One thing I'm thinking about at this point is that OTL Vickers remained mainly an export tank producer outside of the few early war tanks they designed, while Leyland got to produce the Centurion and played a major role in the Chieftain. Here Vickers is at the forefront of British tank technology and its designs are shaping up to be pretty universal with the Valiant and its future successors. This may well make Vickers the go-to company to design new tanks in the UK, and instead of being a state-developped clean sheet design the "Centurion" (if it even happens) could be a Vickers design, either a major redesign of the Valiant or a clean sheet design that used Vickers' experience.

Same goes for any future tank that follows.
 
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Vickers did make some very good tanks in the Cold War. Sometimes better laid out than the government equivalents. Though less advanced due to being for export. It probably won’t hurt things if they are more involved with Tank design post-war as well as during it.
 
Oooh so two things, Vickers is looking at welding tanks so we can possibly assume that later marks of the Valiant will be welded or at least have welded parts (turret perhaps?) and that the Valian II will be fully welded.

Two - An improved tank shop to allow for far greater production is in the works, this will only help things later on!
 
Vickers did make some very good tanks in the Cold War. Sometimes better laid out than the government equivalents. Though less advanced due to being for export. It probably won’t hurt things if they are more involved with Tank design post-war as well as during it.
Apparently the Vickers MBT Mk 1 posessed better stabilisation than the Chieftain. Most important of all is that at this point Vickers predominantly used torsion bars and those were way better than the Chieftain's "improved" Horstmann bogies which had really poor vertical travel for the time (86mm when both wheels were compressed...), and were excessively heavy on a tank that already was way overweight (the suspension took 9% of the total weight of the tank, nearly a whopping 5 tonnes, which is a lot for such a poor suspension when the Challenger 2's took 5.5% but had excellent performance for the time).

The MBT Mk4 Valiant and the Mk 7 both posessed good turrets and better fire control than the Challenger 1. The Mk 7s served as the base for Challenger 2's turret.
 
Apparently the Vickers MBT Mk 1 posessed better stabilisation than the Chieftain. Most important of all is that at this point Vickers predominantly used torsion bars and those were way better than the Chieftain's "improved" Horstmann bogies which had really poor vertical travel for the time (86mm when both wheels were compressed...), and were excessively heavy on a tank that already was way overweight (the suspension took 9% of the total weight of the tank, nearly a whopping 5 tonnes, which is a lot for such a poor suspension when the Challenger 2's took 5.5% but had excellent performance for the time).

The MBT Mk4 Valiant and the Mk 7 both posessed good turrets and better fire control than the Challenger 1. The Mk 7s served as the base for Challenger 2's turret.
Yeah, when I said “less advanced” I meant that some of the toys were not approved for export. Things like Swingfire missiles (they had a fascination with AT missiles on tanks) and the Leyland engine (probably a blessing with hindsight). The actual systems were often better executed than on the government issue, and sometime predated the Government tanks getting the same systems in the next generation.
 
FWIIW, Vickers ship building at Barrow in Furness were leaders in ship welding and there was a welding school within the yard in the 1930's. Also Metropolitan Vickers Ltd in Manchester built welding equipment and made welding rods. So Vickers should be able to equip the new factory basically 'in house' and certainly has the expertise to ensure that the welding equipment is correct for the jib. If Guy's are not using Metrovick welders and rods then perhaps there is a reciprocal trade possible here or at least of technical support.
 
Hm, for all that the Guy Armoured Car was welded, its design seemed to include a lot of bolts/rivets on the hull:
Tanks_and_Afvs_of_the_British_Army_1939-45_MH3699.jpg
 

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Bit late know but could we have balanced Karma by having some person who hindered British developments die at the same time Carden survived.....

1 lives 1 dies the Nazi's get trounced.....
 
Bit late know but could we have balanced Karma by having some person who hindered British developments die at the same time Carden survived.....

1 lives 1 dies the Nazi's get trounced.....
We regret to announce the death of Lord Nuffield in a freak accident yesterday afternoon. He was observing the testing of a new A13 Cruiser tank when its engine exploded a one of the cylinders destroyed his kidneys, a connecting rod entered his brain and the camshaft smashed the small of his back. The parts were retrieved and the engine reassembled but would not start.
 
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