That would be 350 Valiants. Maybe order 250 with an option for a further 250 on prompt delivery, or further 100 if delayed, to be safe?
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Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
- Status
The only way I can think of butterflying away the BESA 15mm is to have British Light Tanks (either in specification, design, order or service) be armoured against it by the time the BESA 15mm is being considered.
That would make sense. I guess if you could create a new demand for them, would a British factory tool up for them more quickly?
AIUI the process for getting a Hispano license was a bit of a dog’s breakfast. Hispano-Souza wanted to produce them themselves in Britain rather than letting the design be made by a British company. But they were not happy with the terms and the Government was not happy with the time it would take for them to get set up or the fact that they would have to sponsor another (in this case French) arms company rather than one of their own. Negotiations took some time, and the HS cannon was only put in aircraft in 1940. Another sector of the military asking for it could speed things up or it could breakdown negotiations. Hard to say. Either way, it is unlikely to be ready in time barring butterflies in either the government or the company.
I will always maintain that the 'mature' HS-404 was the best choice for a fighter gun
However as you have pointed out there was issues with licencing - as I understand it the final blue prints for some of the components were only flown back to Britian in a Long Range PR Spit after France had thrown in the towel.
And this is rather late as far as this POD is concerned.
The other consideration is that while the HS-404 could never be considered a 'light' weapon it was intended to be used on an aircraft where the number of rounds fired would never exceed 60 maybe 120 rounds in a given combat and at altitude and in flight where the lower temperatures and the airspeed of the aircraft would both contribute to the cooling of the weapon.
So both those aspects allow for a lighter weapon than would be the case for an equivalent cannon mounted on a given AFV which would not enjoy the same lower temperatures and airspeed (and would have to suffer a much more challenging life with less love than a fighter mounted gun) so the HS 404 would not serve as an AFV weapon without so much modification that it would be considered a new gun!
Therefore the Oerlikon 20mm seems to be the only real choice here.
Perhaps have Mountbatten's efforts for the RN to adopt the weapon in the late 30s bear fruit (OTL his efforts failed until the start of the war when Adm Roger Blackhouse became commander of the home fleet and weighed in) and the army takes notice - initially as a light AAA gun and then as an AFV weapon?
Glyndwr01
Banned
The alternative is to purchase https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/25_mm_Hotchkiss_anti-tank_gun for the light tanks.
In action in the Battle of France in 1940, it was found that the projectile was too small to be very effective against German tanks, especially at longer ranges. It remained a useful weapon against armoured cars and other light armoured vehicles.[4]
So it might stop a Rupert attempting to take on more than his bean can, can handle!
In action in the Battle of France in 1940, it was found that the projectile was too small to be very effective against German tanks, especially at longer ranges. It remained a useful weapon against armoured cars and other light armoured vehicles.[4]
So it might stop a Rupert attempting to take on more than his bean can, can handle!
allanpcameron
Donor
Yes, it's an alternative to the A12 specification that Vulcan had designed the Matilda II for. (Note at this point it isn't called that, nor is the A11 the Matilda I, although Matilda is the Vickers' code name for it. ) However at this point in time, a 'heavy cruiser' is something with 30mm armour, which the A10 is designed for. In 1939 specification for all cruisers will move to that level of armour, but the A13, like the A9, only have 14mm. The Valiant at this point is considered an infantry tank, but using the aero-engine and making it diesel, Carden is changing the goalposts of what is an infantry tank and what we would describe as a heavy cruiser. Basically Carden is trying (though he doesn't know it) to design a British equivalent to the Panzer IV, only better. One, that with modifications, will do well for most of the war. So starting with a 78mm armoured tank that can do more than 20mph and take a bigger gun when it comes along, he's getting there.
https://www.deviantart.com/sandu61/art/A10-Mk2-Cruiser-860276084
Got ya and thanks for the reply, I'm still getting confused by all the numbers and a lack of names
Once we start getting names I know where I am And yeah the Valiant's going to start off as a late war era Panzer IV in terms of protection as even the Panzer IV A only had 30mm of armour and only the Panzer G had 80mm of armour and they popped up from March 42 and if the UK can manage to keep developing the 6lb gun then there's going to be a tank that will easily fit it or the later 75 as many British tanks also used.
Its a shame they kept the 7.92mm mg,it boggles the mind they'd want another caliber of mg, you'd think they would either use the vickers and the .303 round as there's mountains of that ammo, or use the Vickers 50 although that's probably too big a gun for the tanks of the era to have as a coax.
With its bigger turret though there's room to grow to take the 57mm or adapt for the US 75. I have to wonder how this will influence other UK tank projects, there's things like the Churchill and if that starts off as roughly the Mark III standard with the 57mm gun then that could be a good thing, or we could see a Churchill with a more powerful engine. I assume this kills the Covenanter and other tanks if the UK focuses on the Valiant. It could also inspire the earlier introduction of another cruiser that's not got light armour and basically give the UK the Cromwell at the time it should have been introduced and used, around 42 - 43 rather than being available in 44.
And indeed, with a 'heavy infantry tank' being able to pootle along at 20+ kph the War Office might try and keep that speed which the Churchill lacked and instead it could lead to something like the Excelsior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excelsior_tank
Lets also hope that the - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valiant_tank never sees the light of day.
Got ya and thanks for the reply, I'm still getting confused by all the numbers and a lack of names
Once we start getting names I know where I am And yeah the Valiant's going to start off as a late war era Panzer IV in terms of protection as even the Panzer IV A only had 30mm of armour and only the Panzer G had 80mm of armour and they popped up from March 42 and if the UK can manage to keep developing the 6lb gun then there's going to be a tank that will easily fit it or the later 75 as many British tanks also used.Its a shame they kept the 7.92mm mg,it boggles the mind they'd want another caliber of mg, you'd think they would either use the vickers and the .303 round as there's mountains of that ammo, or use the Vickers 50 although that's probably too big a gun for the tanks of the era to have as a coax.
With its bigger turret though there's room to grow to take the 57mm or adapt for the US 75. I have to wonder how this will influence other UK tank projects, there's things like the Churchill and if that starts off as roughly the Mark III standard with the 57mm gun then that could be a good thing, or we could see a Churchill with a more powerful engine. I assume this kills the Covenanter and other tanks if the UK focuses on the Valiant. It could also inspire the earlier introduction of another cruiser that's not got light armour and basically give the UK the Cromwell at the time it should have been introduced and used, around 42 - 43 rather than being available in 44.
And indeed, with a 'heavy infantry tank' being able to pootle along at 20+ kph the War Office might try and keep that speed which the Churchill lacked and instead it could lead to something like the Excelsior https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excelsior_tank
Lets also hope that the - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valiant_tank never sees the light of day.
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Greater numbers of orders for 'proper tanks' made and delivered earlier should really help with the major issue with early British tanks in that it obliges the 'AFV Industry' to increase the number of draughtsmen and design engineers and the number of trained inspectors both groups who were overwhelmed by the very rapid increase in AFV production and number of company's involved (most of which had not been involved in the production of AFVs before).
Hopefully that will allow many of the early issues experienced by AFVs - both in design and poor quality control - to be resolved faster.
Hopefully that will allow many of the early issues experienced by AFVs - both in design and poor quality control - to be resolved faster.
10 January 1939. 10:00hrs. Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
10 January 1939. 10:00hrs. Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, England.
Sir Noel Birch, before he had retired from the army and moved into civilian life in Vickers-Armstrong, had given his name to a self-propelled gun. Birch, with Vickers help, had tried various attempts to mate an artillery piece and the hull of a tracked vehicle. The conservativism of the army had ultimately put paid to the experiments, but Birch still thought there would be a place for the Royal Horse Artillery equipped with tracked vehicles that could keep up with tanks. With the various designs now being worked on by Vickers-Armstrong, he had given his blessing to Sir John Carden to look again at a self-propelled gun.
Carden had already thought of this and had some sketches and drawings that he had been working on. The original Birch gun had been an 18-pdr*, most of these were being adapted to the new 25-pdr that was standard for the artillery regiments. Carden had noted from the debates around the Birch gun back in the 1920’s that, in his opinion, part of its failure was trying to do too much. Instead of mounting it in such a way that it could be rotated 360°, as well as be elevated to be used in an anti-aircraft role, his own design was for something much simpler. Using the Valiant hull as his basis, he had been able to position the 25-pdr gun inside a raised armoured casement. By its nature it had to open-topped, but since it wasn’t envisaged to be in direct contact with the enemy, this seemed reasonable. It would provide a greater mobility than guns towed by tractors (either wheeled or tracked) and at least some protection for their crews. Unlike the old Medium Mark II hull, the Valiant’s would be far more capable of dealing with the recoil of the gun. They talked over what they might call it, and decided eventually on ‘Vampire', it would have a good bite.
Birch had approved Carden’s plan and the two men had approached Giffard Martel for his blessing to build a prototype Vampire for the Royal Artillery. They didn’t imagine that it would win too many orders currently, but Birch was of the firm belief that the original idea that had led them to experiment in the 1920’s, the experience of the Great War, would likely have to be relearned. He still had friends in the army, and had spent time on a shooting meet over the Christmas holiday with General Alan Brooke, the commander of 1st Armoured Division. As an artillery man, when Birch had talked about self-propelled guns able to keep up with his tanks, Brooke had expressed some enthusiasm for the idea. That had led to a further discussion about what he was learning from commanding the Armoured Division.
The ideas that had been around from the experimental Mechanised Force, which Noel Birch had been part of, showed up that all the supporting arms needed to be in vehicles that didn’t have to stick to the roads. Having a Royal Horse Artillery regiment on self-propelled guns would be great, but the combined Light Anti-Aircraft and Anti-tank regiment would also need more tracked vehicles. The two motorised infantry battalions and the Royal Engineers also needed to be able to go wherever the tanks could go. The Engineers needed bridging equipment and be able to deal with minefields. Brooke also thought that the RAOC and RASC, bringing forward all the supplies and ammunition, as well as fixing whatever was broken, needed to be integrated into his Division’s command chain. But his largest gripe was that all he had so far were light Mark VI tanks and a few older Mediums. It would be lovely to have a fully mechanised Division to back up his tank regiments, but without tanks, everything else was ultimately pointless. Brooke had been privy to the Valiant's testing at Farnborough and he was most keen on getting a Division's worth as soon as possible.
When Birch shared this conversation with Carden, they began thinking about what would be adaptable for the various roles to support an Armoured Division. Not everything needed the heavy hull of the Valiant. The A9 hull, with its relatively thin armour, and reasonable speed, was big enough to use as the basis for something that could take the proposed Bofors 40mm anti-aircraft gun for the light AA regiments. Surrounding the gun with a bullet-proof shield might give it a very high profile, but since it wasn’t expected to close with the enemy, just protect the gunners from bomb fragments and strafing, that would matter less. ‘Vanguard’ was the name they gave to the self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG) idea, guarding against aerial attack. They discussed whether the Valiant hull might be capable to carrying the new 3.7-inch anti-aircraft gun for the Heavy Anti-Aircraft regiments, but Carden thought the gun was probably too heavy.
Carden did note that the older 3-inch gun would be much more feasible, and like the old Birch gun Mark II, it could probably be mounted for both anti-air and direct artillery support. The two men also wondered about using a lighter anti-aircraft gun on the mounting. Something like being used as bombers’ defensive turrets with two or four machine guns would easy enough to mount on a tracked hull, even the Mark VI light tank*. Birch did not think that just rifle calibre machine guns would be entirely suitable for that role, that perhaps the 20mm Swiss Oerlikon that was being looked at might be better. Then he mentioned Vickers own 2-pdr pompom in the A11 turret. The Mark XVI mounting that the Royal Navy used could probably be adapted for use in a tank hull. Carden certainly knew the pompom would be easier to get his hands on to try it out, though the A9 hull would be needed for that. What advantage this would have over the Bofors 40mm gun wasn’t entirely clear to Carden, but perhaps it would be a stop-gap until enough of the Swedish weapons were available.
As for the 2-pdr anti-tank gun in a protected casement, like the idea of the Vampire self-propelled gun, Carden didn’t believe that the War Office would be interested in such exotic ideas. There already had been experiments the previous year using the Vickers carrier to mount a 2-pdr*, to give it the kind of mobility that couldn’t be achieved with the towed version. However, the War Office had been quite dismissive of the prototype. Carden didn’t mind trying something different, perhaps using the A17 hull as the basis. It would be simple enough to build up the shield to give all around protection to the crew even against an anti-tank round, though that might need the A9 hull. Without a turret, the vehicle would have a low profile, and still be big enough to mount whatever gun followed on from the 2-pdr. They decided to name this project 'Vixen', it might appear small but combatative.
Something of what General Brooke and Noel Birch had talked about gave Carden an idea for the motorised infantry. The French and Germans were experimenting with using half-tracks for carrying infantry. Why not go the whole way with an ‘armoured personnel carrier’. This had been the idea behind the Cavalry Carrier*, designed to carry six soldiers into battle, but it wasn’t gaining much traction with the Cavalry regiments. The idea of carrying troops into battle and then fighting dismounted wasn’t quite the way they were thinking of themselves in the mechanised era. Whereas the infantry, supporting the tanks in an Armoured Division, might just, finding themselves more mobile and better protected, more able to carry out their support role. The Cavalry carrier was too small for carrying a section of soldiers. But the A17 hull, basically an expanded carrier, would be big enough to carry eight or even ten troops. Birch wondered if mounting the engine at the front, like on the Mark VI light tanks, wouldn’t give a better sized and protected compartment to carry the infantry, allowing them to be able to dismount from the rear of the vehicle. Carden didn’t think the bigger Meadows engine in the A17 would allow for that, but he would be happy to give it some thought.
The other vehicles that the Armoured Division needed: bridgelayers, minesweepers, bulldozers, recovery vehicles were all within the bounds of possibility on either the Valiant or A9 hull, in fact, even the A11 could be adapted if necessary. The Royal Engineers would need to be consulted on what exactly they would be looking for, but Vickers had a solid basis in its various tanks to offer them the capability of having the right vehicles for their roles. They debated whether producing a lengthened version of the Mark VI light tank chassis could give the RASC and RAOC a tracked and protected lorry for carrying fuel, ammunition and supplies forward. Though, they had to admit, in reality the tracked carrier was already suitable for much of that work, so perhaps making a bigger version capable of carrying more weight might be the better solution.
Sir John Carden had plenty of notes from his meeting to work on. Calling together the design team, all those not currently involved in essential work, were given tasks to see whether Vickers could produce vehicles that the army didn’t even know it needed yet.
*
*
*
*
Sir Noel Birch, before he had retired from the army and moved into civilian life in Vickers-Armstrong, had given his name to a self-propelled gun. Birch, with Vickers help, had tried various attempts to mate an artillery piece and the hull of a tracked vehicle. The conservativism of the army had ultimately put paid to the experiments, but Birch still thought there would be a place for the Royal Horse Artillery equipped with tracked vehicles that could keep up with tanks. With the various designs now being worked on by Vickers-Armstrong, he had given his blessing to Sir John Carden to look again at a self-propelled gun.
Carden had already thought of this and had some sketches and drawings that he had been working on. The original Birch gun had been an 18-pdr*, most of these were being adapted to the new 25-pdr that was standard for the artillery regiments. Carden had noted from the debates around the Birch gun back in the 1920’s that, in his opinion, part of its failure was trying to do too much. Instead of mounting it in such a way that it could be rotated 360°, as well as be elevated to be used in an anti-aircraft role, his own design was for something much simpler. Using the Valiant hull as his basis, he had been able to position the 25-pdr gun inside a raised armoured casement. By its nature it had to open-topped, but since it wasn’t envisaged to be in direct contact with the enemy, this seemed reasonable. It would provide a greater mobility than guns towed by tractors (either wheeled or tracked) and at least some protection for their crews. Unlike the old Medium Mark II hull, the Valiant’s would be far more capable of dealing with the recoil of the gun. They talked over what they might call it, and decided eventually on ‘Vampire', it would have a good bite.
Birch had approved Carden’s plan and the two men had approached Giffard Martel for his blessing to build a prototype Vampire for the Royal Artillery. They didn’t imagine that it would win too many orders currently, but Birch was of the firm belief that the original idea that had led them to experiment in the 1920’s, the experience of the Great War, would likely have to be relearned. He still had friends in the army, and had spent time on a shooting meet over the Christmas holiday with General Alan Brooke, the commander of 1st Armoured Division. As an artillery man, when Birch had talked about self-propelled guns able to keep up with his tanks, Brooke had expressed some enthusiasm for the idea. That had led to a further discussion about what he was learning from commanding the Armoured Division.
The ideas that had been around from the experimental Mechanised Force, which Noel Birch had been part of, showed up that all the supporting arms needed to be in vehicles that didn’t have to stick to the roads. Having a Royal Horse Artillery regiment on self-propelled guns would be great, but the combined Light Anti-Aircraft and Anti-tank regiment would also need more tracked vehicles. The two motorised infantry battalions and the Royal Engineers also needed to be able to go wherever the tanks could go. The Engineers needed bridging equipment and be able to deal with minefields. Brooke also thought that the RAOC and RASC, bringing forward all the supplies and ammunition, as well as fixing whatever was broken, needed to be integrated into his Division’s command chain. But his largest gripe was that all he had so far were light Mark VI tanks and a few older Mediums. It would be lovely to have a fully mechanised Division to back up his tank regiments, but without tanks, everything else was ultimately pointless. Brooke had been privy to the Valiant's testing at Farnborough and he was most keen on getting a Division's worth as soon as possible.
When Birch shared this conversation with Carden, they began thinking about what would be adaptable for the various roles to support an Armoured Division. Not everything needed the heavy hull of the Valiant. The A9 hull, with its relatively thin armour, and reasonable speed, was big enough to use as the basis for something that could take the proposed Bofors 40mm anti-aircraft gun for the light AA regiments. Surrounding the gun with a bullet-proof shield might give it a very high profile, but since it wasn’t expected to close with the enemy, just protect the gunners from bomb fragments and strafing, that would matter less. ‘Vanguard’ was the name they gave to the self-propelled anti-aircraft gun (SPAAG) idea, guarding against aerial attack. They discussed whether the Valiant hull might be capable to carrying the new 3.7-inch anti-aircraft gun for the Heavy Anti-Aircraft regiments, but Carden thought the gun was probably too heavy.
Carden did note that the older 3-inch gun would be much more feasible, and like the old Birch gun Mark II, it could probably be mounted for both anti-air and direct artillery support. The two men also wondered about using a lighter anti-aircraft gun on the mounting. Something like being used as bombers’ defensive turrets with two or four machine guns would easy enough to mount on a tracked hull, even the Mark VI light tank*. Birch did not think that just rifle calibre machine guns would be entirely suitable for that role, that perhaps the 20mm Swiss Oerlikon that was being looked at might be better. Then he mentioned Vickers own 2-pdr pompom in the A11 turret. The Mark XVI mounting that the Royal Navy used could probably be adapted for use in a tank hull. Carden certainly knew the pompom would be easier to get his hands on to try it out, though the A9 hull would be needed for that. What advantage this would have over the Bofors 40mm gun wasn’t entirely clear to Carden, but perhaps it would be a stop-gap until enough of the Swedish weapons were available.
As for the 2-pdr anti-tank gun in a protected casement, like the idea of the Vampire self-propelled gun, Carden didn’t believe that the War Office would be interested in such exotic ideas. There already had been experiments the previous year using the Vickers carrier to mount a 2-pdr*, to give it the kind of mobility that couldn’t be achieved with the towed version. However, the War Office had been quite dismissive of the prototype. Carden didn’t mind trying something different, perhaps using the A17 hull as the basis. It would be simple enough to build up the shield to give all around protection to the crew even against an anti-tank round, though that might need the A9 hull. Without a turret, the vehicle would have a low profile, and still be big enough to mount whatever gun followed on from the 2-pdr. They decided to name this project 'Vixen', it might appear small but combatative.
Something of what General Brooke and Noel Birch had talked about gave Carden an idea for the motorised infantry. The French and Germans were experimenting with using half-tracks for carrying infantry. Why not go the whole way with an ‘armoured personnel carrier’. This had been the idea behind the Cavalry Carrier*, designed to carry six soldiers into battle, but it wasn’t gaining much traction with the Cavalry regiments. The idea of carrying troops into battle and then fighting dismounted wasn’t quite the way they were thinking of themselves in the mechanised era. Whereas the infantry, supporting the tanks in an Armoured Division, might just, finding themselves more mobile and better protected, more able to carry out their support role. The Cavalry carrier was too small for carrying a section of soldiers. But the A17 hull, basically an expanded carrier, would be big enough to carry eight or even ten troops. Birch wondered if mounting the engine at the front, like on the Mark VI light tanks, wouldn’t give a better sized and protected compartment to carry the infantry, allowing them to be able to dismount from the rear of the vehicle. Carden didn’t think the bigger Meadows engine in the A17 would allow for that, but he would be happy to give it some thought.
The other vehicles that the Armoured Division needed: bridgelayers, minesweepers, bulldozers, recovery vehicles were all within the bounds of possibility on either the Valiant or A9 hull, in fact, even the A11 could be adapted if necessary. The Royal Engineers would need to be consulted on what exactly they would be looking for, but Vickers had a solid basis in its various tanks to offer them the capability of having the right vehicles for their roles. They debated whether producing a lengthened version of the Mark VI light tank chassis could give the RASC and RAOC a tracked and protected lorry for carrying fuel, ammunition and supplies forward. Though, they had to admit, in reality the tracked carrier was already suitable for much of that work, so perhaps making a bigger version capable of carrying more weight might be the better solution.
Sir John Carden had plenty of notes from his meeting to work on. Calling together the design team, all those not currently involved in essential work, were given tasks to see whether Vickers could produce vehicles that the army didn’t even know it needed yet.
*
*
*
*
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Minor edits, just some tense confusion.
Great update, nice to see Birch himself get involved with the new SPG concept.
From wiki
6pdr
Performance
Estimated armour penetration*[13]
| Type | 100 m (110 yd) | 500 m (550 yd) | 1,000 m (1,100 yd) | 1,500 m (1,600 yd) | 2,000 m (2,200 yd) |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| British ammunition | |||||
| AP | 135 mm (5.3 in) | 112 mm (4.4 in) | 89 mm (3.5 in) | 70 mm (2.8 in) | 55 mm (2.2 in) |
| APCBC | 115 mm (4.5 in) | 103 mm (4.1 in) | 90 mm (3.5 in) | 78 mm (3.1 in) | 68 mm (2.7 in) |
| APDS ** | 177 mm (7.0 in) | 160 mm (6.3 in) | 140 mm (5.5 in) | 123 mm (4.8 in) | 108 mm (4.3 in) |
%0mm/L60
Calculated penetration figures (at 90 degrees) using American and British 50% success criteria.[4]
| 100 m | 500 m | 1000 m | 1500 m | 2000 m | |||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Gun type | Ammunition type | Muzzle velocity (m/s) | Penetration (mm) | ||||
| 5.0 cm KwK 39 L/60 | Pzgr. 39 APCBC | 835 m/s (2,740 ft/s) | 102 | 85 | 68 | 54 | 43 |
| 5.0 cm KwK 39 L/60 | Pzgr. 40 APCR | 1,180 m/s (3,900 ft/s) | 126 | 88 | 56 | 36 | 24 |
- Status