Yeah, the delays to the schedule means they maybe be able to get closer to Moscow before Rasputitsa rolls in. Although maybe is the key word as the Panzers often outran their own supply lines and the infantry.
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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I think it was the KV-2 that caused the most problems for the germans.. It would sit on an crossroad the germans needed (it had be level to turn the turret) and had a big 152mm gun in the turret . Look up the Battle of Raseiniai for the impact of these tanks.
30 April 1941. Cairo, Egypt.
allanpcameron
Donor
30 April 1941. Cairo, Egypt.
General Wavell and Admiral Cunningham had been watching the progress of the withdrawal from Greece intently. The first convoys of the ‘useless mouths’ and wounded had arrived in Alexandria, having departed Pireas on the night of 24/25 April. Many of the support troops, including the large RAF contingent, would have a few days to get themselves sorted before they were given new tasks. Of the 62500 men who had been transported to Greece, it was expected that around 60000 men would be evacuated. The Greek Navy and merchant marine, as far as Middle East Command could estimate had evacuated at least 30000 men, mostly to Crete, though some were now making their way to Alexandria or Haifa. As far as they knew the Greeks had also brought out a large number of Yugoslavs, including many pilots and groundcrew, some five thousand in total.
The discussion about which units to leave on Crete, and who to bring back to Egypt, had been going on for days. Since the New Zealand Division were being taken directly to Suda Bay, they, under General Freyberg, seemed the obvious choice to take overall responsibility for the island’s defence. Currently Creforce consisted of 14th Infantry Brigade, the newly arrived Polish Brigade, and the commandos of Layforce.
Wavell still wanted the commandos to be available to eventually try to make a movement towards isolating and eventually capturing Rhodes. The Greek forces on Crete had been strongly reinforced by the evacuations from the mainland, and some of the ships plying between Alexandria and Suda Bay had carried as much of the captured Italian arms and ammunition that were still available to provide the Greeks replacement weapons. Once the three ‘Glen’ ships were done with the evacuation, Wavell wanted them to bring the commandos back to Egypt.
Wavell expressed the worry that the New Zealanders, having been through such heavy fighting, and perhaps not being able to have their full levels of heavy equipment, might not be the best choice to leave on Crete. He would prefer they be brought back to Egypt where they could properly rest and refit, along with the Australian 6th Division.
Admiral Cunningham again expressed his view that having both Malta and Crete to keep supplied by sea, as well as running convoys along the North African coast to keep supplying O’Connor’s army, would stretch his fleet’s capacity. While the remnants of the Greek Navy had joined their strength to his, including the majority of the Greek merchant fleet, it would still be a hard task. Already a number of his destroyers and cruisers were suffering damage which would need to be repaired. The previous Italian attack on Suda Bay, with the damage to, and beaching of HMS York, was a reminder that the Italian navy was still a force to be reckoned with. The fact that they were using unconventional means had caused a stir throughout the Mediterranean Fleet, with each naval installation having to look again at their defences with an eye on something unexpected.
Wavell asked for clarification, did Cunningham want to abandon Crete? Cunningham certainly didn’t want to abandon Suda Bay, he was simply asking to keep the need for supplies to Crete as minimal as possible, at least until things improved generally. Wavell agreed, he would need to consult with General Papagos about what the Greek army could do to defend the island, with the help of the Greek Navy. If possible, Wavell would like to keep the British presence on Crete to a maximum of three Brigades, the equivalent of one Infantry Division. He had every confidence in the regular 14th Brigade, and the Poles were itching to have another chance to kill Germans. Leaving all the New Zealand 2nd Division on Crete would strain the capacity to supply the island’s needs. He might ask if General Freyberg would be able to leave one Brigade, if it was complete and fully equipped, on Crete, bringing the rest of the Division back to refit in Egypt.
Admiral Cunningham agreed to have his staff prepare to run a large convoy from Suda Bay to bring to Alexandria as many non-essential personnel as possible. General Freyberg, with his 2nd Division staff, would need to work out who could be shipped off the island, and who he would need. It would also be important to take enough equipment and stores to allow the island to be held, even if the Royal Navy had to postpone supply convoys because of other eventualities.
The RAF were another problem. The campaign in Greece had cost the RAF 209 aircraft and 130 aircrew. While some Hurricanes, Gladiators and Blenheims had made it to Crete, there wasn’t enough strength to protect Crete from the expected assault that Wavell had been warned of from the most secret dispatches from London. The Hurricanes which had arrived with the last convoy were all being used to provide cover for General O’Connor’s attack which was due to kick off the next day.
While the American P40, the Tomahawk, were starting to arrive in numbers, but a great deal of training had to be done before the pilots got used to it. The way the landing gear was designed meant that RAF pilots had to change from their normal ‘three-point’ landing to a ‘wheels landing’, which involved a longer and lower angle of approach touching down on the wheels first. The aircraft built for the French had had to be worked on to make them suitable for British trained pilots. All of the aircraft delivered to Africa lacked armour, self-sealing fuel tanks and bulletproof windscreens, which had to be rectified before they could go into combat. The machine guns that had been supplied with the aircraft also had to be replaced with guns that fired the common .303 ammunition. This had delayed the Tomahawk into service, but it was hoped that four squadrons (two RAF, one RAAF and one SAAF) would be operational by the end of June.
General Wavell and Admiral Cunningham had been watching the progress of the withdrawal from Greece intently. The first convoys of the ‘useless mouths’ and wounded had arrived in Alexandria, having departed Pireas on the night of 24/25 April. Many of the support troops, including the large RAF contingent, would have a few days to get themselves sorted before they were given new tasks. Of the 62500 men who had been transported to Greece, it was expected that around 60000 men would be evacuated. The Greek Navy and merchant marine, as far as Middle East Command could estimate had evacuated at least 30000 men, mostly to Crete, though some were now making their way to Alexandria or Haifa. As far as they knew the Greeks had also brought out a large number of Yugoslavs, including many pilots and groundcrew, some five thousand in total.
The discussion about which units to leave on Crete, and who to bring back to Egypt, had been going on for days. Since the New Zealand Division were being taken directly to Suda Bay, they, under General Freyberg, seemed the obvious choice to take overall responsibility for the island’s defence. Currently Creforce consisted of 14th Infantry Brigade, the newly arrived Polish Brigade, and the commandos of Layforce.
Wavell still wanted the commandos to be available to eventually try to make a movement towards isolating and eventually capturing Rhodes. The Greek forces on Crete had been strongly reinforced by the evacuations from the mainland, and some of the ships plying between Alexandria and Suda Bay had carried as much of the captured Italian arms and ammunition that were still available to provide the Greeks replacement weapons. Once the three ‘Glen’ ships were done with the evacuation, Wavell wanted them to bring the commandos back to Egypt.
Wavell expressed the worry that the New Zealanders, having been through such heavy fighting, and perhaps not being able to have their full levels of heavy equipment, might not be the best choice to leave on Crete. He would prefer they be brought back to Egypt where they could properly rest and refit, along with the Australian 6th Division.
Admiral Cunningham again expressed his view that having both Malta and Crete to keep supplied by sea, as well as running convoys along the North African coast to keep supplying O’Connor’s army, would stretch his fleet’s capacity. While the remnants of the Greek Navy had joined their strength to his, including the majority of the Greek merchant fleet, it would still be a hard task. Already a number of his destroyers and cruisers were suffering damage which would need to be repaired. The previous Italian attack on Suda Bay, with the damage to, and beaching of HMS York, was a reminder that the Italian navy was still a force to be reckoned with. The fact that they were using unconventional means had caused a stir throughout the Mediterranean Fleet, with each naval installation having to look again at their defences with an eye on something unexpected.
Wavell asked for clarification, did Cunningham want to abandon Crete? Cunningham certainly didn’t want to abandon Suda Bay, he was simply asking to keep the need for supplies to Crete as minimal as possible, at least until things improved generally. Wavell agreed, he would need to consult with General Papagos about what the Greek army could do to defend the island, with the help of the Greek Navy. If possible, Wavell would like to keep the British presence on Crete to a maximum of three Brigades, the equivalent of one Infantry Division. He had every confidence in the regular 14th Brigade, and the Poles were itching to have another chance to kill Germans. Leaving all the New Zealand 2nd Division on Crete would strain the capacity to supply the island’s needs. He might ask if General Freyberg would be able to leave one Brigade, if it was complete and fully equipped, on Crete, bringing the rest of the Division back to refit in Egypt.
Admiral Cunningham agreed to have his staff prepare to run a large convoy from Suda Bay to bring to Alexandria as many non-essential personnel as possible. General Freyberg, with his 2nd Division staff, would need to work out who could be shipped off the island, and who he would need. It would also be important to take enough equipment and stores to allow the island to be held, even if the Royal Navy had to postpone supply convoys because of other eventualities.
The RAF were another problem. The campaign in Greece had cost the RAF 209 aircraft and 130 aircrew. While some Hurricanes, Gladiators and Blenheims had made it to Crete, there wasn’t enough strength to protect Crete from the expected assault that Wavell had been warned of from the most secret dispatches from London. The Hurricanes which had arrived with the last convoy were all being used to provide cover for General O’Connor’s attack which was due to kick off the next day.
While the American P40, the Tomahawk, were starting to arrive in numbers, but a great deal of training had to be done before the pilots got used to it. The way the landing gear was designed meant that RAF pilots had to change from their normal ‘three-point’ landing to a ‘wheels landing’, which involved a longer and lower angle of approach touching down on the wheels first. The aircraft built for the French had had to be worked on to make them suitable for British trained pilots. All of the aircraft delivered to Africa lacked armour, self-sealing fuel tanks and bulletproof windscreens, which had to be rectified before they could go into combat. The machine guns that had been supplied with the aircraft also had to be replaced with guns that fired the common .303 ammunition. This had delayed the Tomahawk into service, but it was hoped that four squadrons (two RAF, one RAAF and one SAAF) would be operational by the end of June.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Crete OOB for the Greeks and the British looks like it will be a bit messy. The Greeks look like they will be more effective as there will be more of them and they will be adequately armed. The Polish brigade is a strong one (both in numbers and fighting capability) but the loss of two of the three NZ brigades will be a blow. Of course there are some orphan A13s as well.
Crete's loss will be O'Connor's gain though as those NZ brigades add to his reserves.
Crete's loss will be O'Connor's gain though as those NZ brigades add to his reserves.
It's the Germans having things their own way - they've conquered France, the Low Countries, Denmark, Norway & now Greece & Yugoslavia. The best the British have been able to do is delay them a bit.
Will the Kiwis be happy to split off a brigade like that? I had the impression that it was seen as imperative by all the Dominions to keep their divisions together rather than split off in penny packets.
Not happy probably, but I don't see that they can reasonably protest, unless they can suggest another brigade to leave there, and withdraw the whole division.
Question....
If the following was true, then wouldn't the priority be on ensuring "the defense of Crete" first, and "easing the stresses on Royal Navy" second. So perhaps having the New Zealand Division stay on Crete to establish the defensive positions, train and handover those positions to re-equipped Greeks and Yugoslavian....then withdraw them for refitting to Egypt to ease the RN's logistics strain?
If the following was true, then wouldn't the priority be on ensuring "the defense of Crete" first, and "easing the stresses on Royal Navy" second. So perhaps having the New Zealand Division stay on Crete to establish the defensive positions, train and handover those positions to re-equipped Greeks and Yugoslavian....then withdraw them for refitting to Egypt to ease the RN's logistics strain?
Was it meant perhaps for 130k, 230k or 300k instead of 30k? Just the green recruits that were transported first were 50k and several divisions escaped south, with the Cretan V having 20k men on its own. In 1940 the Greek Navy comandeered 59 small liners and merchantmen. Other than that there were dozens of other ships, both big and small and 21k tons of additional tonnage since Clan Fraser didnt blow up. The lift capacity was there for a lot of men.
Even these would be a temporary garrison. After a couple of months, when there will be enough weapons for the Cretan Division and Barbarossa starts, even these 3 brigades can be sent back to Egypt. The british presence on Crete can be reduced to the 3 tank squadrons (until Greeks are trained on the Matildas), RAF and RN personnel. I guess by that time, either the Battle of Crete will take place or not. In any case, the immediate danger will be over.
It does appear from the ealier updates they start the evac around approx that of OTL and then they starting a week later.
Still great updates
The above is from the update on the 18th April
While this is from the latest update. Looks like a difference of 6 days. Same happens on updates between where it appears they starting to ship out men and then they doing it later.
Still great updates
Just a thought. If things go in North Africa like we all think then Wavell won't be replaced, which means Auchinleck will still be in command of British Empire forces in the Far East when (if) Japan attacks.
Yep. Hells, even in they don't go as we expect, and Germany proves harder to dislodge, I still don't think a swap will occur. That, as well as the British having more troops and better equipment will likely lead to the Japanese being rather roughly handled.
allanpcameron
Donor
I wanted to express the uncertainty of the numbers, 'at least' would be the ones that the Royal Navy at Command Level were aware of. I don't doubt that the number is far larger than that, but it also puts pressure on Crete to feed, clothe and house all these people. That was my thinking about Cunningham wanting to lift off a large proportion of the men (British forces initially, but also in consultation with Papagos) off the island, so that, if like Malta, it comes under siege, then the job of resupplying is made somewhat easier.
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Derek Pullem
Donor
New Zealanders and others not rescued in OTL amount to some 8,000 or so (those captured at Kalamata) so ITTL these will be extra mouths to feed. Withdrawing 2 brigades of NZ 2nd Divisions offsets this.
Now the Greeks just have to work out how to feed their people
The Greeks in thread have said Crete was self sufficient. Mind, that doesn't include evacuated personnel (other than the Cretan division).
After the Allies get themselves sorted out, I suspect they'll manage without putting too much strain on shipping for food. Even if there is initial hardship and confusion. What's the Greek for "dig for victory"? If Libya falls, that will ease Malta's situation too.
After the Allies get themselves sorted out, I suspect they'll manage without putting too much strain on shipping for food. Even if there is initial hardship and confusion. What's the Greek for "dig for victory"? If Libya falls, that will ease Malta's situation too.
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Derek Pullem
Donor
Population of Crete was c. 300,000 - sounds like there may be at least an extra 20% to feed or so. Non trivial logistics problem if the garrisons are concentrated in defensive positions and not billeted out
Well, it makes sense!
As I see it, the majority of ocean-going liners and merchantmen would go straight to Alexandria. After all, most of the danger of air attack is around Attica and Peloponnese. To my understanding, all the ships lost in the last week of April were in coastal waters around Attica and the eastern shore of the Peloponnese. I think the Greeks will have a pretty good understanding of logistics and the challenges to resupply Crete if they send the majority of their troops there. After all, they spent the previous 6 months being depended upon sea-borne logistics: basically all imports arrived via Egypt or the Dardanelles. They also had 6 months to figure out the logistics of Crete and the rest of the islands during wartime.
Moreover, in OTL when it was asked if the British could take the 50k recruits, they didn't even mention Crete. They asked specifically to send these troops to Egypt and have them trained and organized there. That shows they didn't want to burden Crete with more mouths than the island could feed. We know from OTL that the island could feed a 70k occupation army. In reality, a lot of the Cretan soldiers managed to return to the island during the occupation, one way or another. So, other than the full 20k Cretan veterans, Crete can feed at least another 50k troops.
This why I think the bigger ships would be sent to Egypt. The evacuation started at 18/19th of April for the green recruits: this is enough time for the first ships to depart to make 2 trips back and forth. The Cretan Division can be lifted to Crete via the greek warships and small coastal ships.
If the Greeks found shipping for 5k Yugoslavians, I think that means that most of the Greek Navy and Air Force personnel got evacuated as well. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense if they prioritized the Yugoslavian Air Force over their own.
Last but not least, I think the evacuation order itself means that a lot of shipping that was captured in OTL or sunk while remaining in ports or off shore escapes.
Well, according to the 1940 greek census the population was 452,000. In OTL Crete managed to feed around 520k people in 1943. To my understanding there were no civilian deaths by famine, only from german bayonets, bullets and from being burned alive in their houses. During the Great Famine, Crete was also able to export some quantities of fats (olive oil) to Athens.
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