Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[marathag]

Pierced Steel Planking cannot be used by 4 engine planes as they are too heavy

C-124 Globemaster at Nakhon Phanom AB Thailand
50 tons empty
a B-29 was 37 tons

that was well off the beaten path
The initial project included building an advance cargo airfield with lighting, taxiway, access roads, parking apron and marshalling area for the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) on the site of a small laterite airstrip within the town of Nakhon Phanom. Due to a consideration of engineering, tactical and acquisition factors, the reconnaissance team decided to use an undeveloped site just outside the town to build the new airfield.

NMCB-3 Detachment YANKEE was airlifted from Port Hueneme, CA to Udorn, Thailand in late August tasked to establish initial base operations and logistics, and clear the dense jungle growth. Shortly after arrival, Detachment YANKEE commenced to Nakhon Phanom to construct camp facilities and were later augmented by three officers and 78 men from the main body on 24 September.
The main body airlifted from Camp Kinser, Okinawa to Udorn, Thailand via Military Air Transport special mission flights from 3-5 November. The trip to Nakhon Phanom was its own version of “Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.” Equipment and materiel were moved from Okinawa to Bangkok by sealift and taken to Nakhon Phanom via a combination of airlift, rail and road convoy. The items unable to be shipped via rail or air due to size and/or weight were convoyed 580-miles from Bangkok to Nakhon Phanom over mostly unpaved roads

 

[unknownchild]

View attachment 669647
C-124 Globemaster at Nakhon Phanom AB Thailand
50 tons empty
a B-29 was 37 tons

that was well off the beaten path
The initial project included building an advance cargo airfield with lighting, taxiway, access roads, parking apron and marshalling area for the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) on the site of a small laterite airstrip within the town of Nakhon Phanom. Due to a consideration of engineering, tactical and acquisition factors, the reconnaissance team decided to use an undeveloped site just outside the town to build the new airfield.

NMCB-3 Detachment YANKEE was airlifted from Port Hueneme, CA to Udorn, Thailand in late August tasked to establish initial base operations and logistics, and clear the dense jungle growth. Shortly after arrival, Detachment YANKEE commenced to Nakhon Phanom to construct camp facilities and were later augmented by three officers and 78 men from the main body on 24 September.
The main body airlifted from Camp Kinser, Okinawa to Udorn, Thailand via Military Air Transport special mission flights from 3-5 November. The trip to Nakhon Phanom was its own version of “Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.” Equipment and materiel were moved from Okinawa to Bangkok by sealift and taken to Nakhon Phanom via a combination of airlift, rail and road convoy. The items unable to be shipped via rail or air due to size and/or weight were convoyed 580-miles from Bangkok to Nakhon Phanom over mostly unpaved roads

its not that the 4 engines are to heavy its that most of the bigger planes have to high of a ground pressure plus the psp of 1950's is beter than the first 1940s versions and even diferent types in 1941

 

[marathag]

its not that the 4 engines are to heavy its that most of the bigger planes have to high of a ground pressure plus the psp of 1950's is beter than the first 1940s versions and even diferent types in 1941

The Vietnam stuff was Aluminum, rather than Steel, and were of similar weight per panel. similar tensile strength, but the thicker panes deformed less, and wouldn't rust

 

[wally]

View attachment 669647
C-124 Globemaster at Nakhon Phanom AB Thailand
50 tons empty
a B-29 was 37 tons

that was well off the beaten path
The initial project included building an advance cargo airfield with lighting, taxiway, access roads, parking apron and marshalling area for the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) on the site of a small laterite airstrip within the town of Nakhon Phanom. Due to a consideration of engineering, tactical and acquisition factors, the reconnaissance team decided to use an undeveloped site just outside the town to build the new airfield.

NMCB-3 Detachment YANKEE was airlifted from Port Hueneme, CA to Udorn, Thailand in late August tasked to establish initial base operations and logistics, and clear the dense jungle growth. Shortly after arrival, Detachment YANKEE commenced to Nakhon Phanom to construct camp facilities and were later augmented by three officers and 78 men from the main body on 24 September.
The main body airlifted from Camp Kinser, Okinawa to Udorn, Thailand via Military Air Transport special mission flights from 3-5 November. The trip to Nakhon Phanom was its own version of “Planes, Trains, and Automobiles.” Equipment and materiel were moved from Okinawa to Bangkok by sealift and taken to Nakhon Phanom via a combination of airlift, rail and road convoy. The items unable to be shipped via rail or air due to size and/or weight were convoyed 580-miles from Bangkok to Nakhon Phanom over mostly unpaved roads

I was going on the following from Wiki.

At the start of the Berlin Airlift the runways at Tempelhof Airport in the US Zone of Berlin were made of PSP. Designed to support fighters and smaller cargo aircraft, the Douglas C-54 Skymaster that formed the backbone of the U.S. effort was too heavy for the PSP

 

[X Oristos]

In my previous post I mentioned that the Germans in a few months had built from scratch an airfield in Tympaki and repaired/expanded the other 3 airfields in Crete. I totally forgot building a 5th one: the airfield at Kastelli that in May 1941 was at the very initial stages of construction (a single dirt taxi-way that was blocked with tree boulders by the British at May)

According to the official Hellenic Air Force site, Kastelli airfield alone supported 200-440 sorties per day. The greek version of the site mentions that most of the aircraft operating from there were Ju-86, Ju-88 and Me-109.

At the same time, the Germans were building coastal fortifications all around the island and especially at the south coast. Resources such as machinery, cement and stone had to be invested there as well.

What actual history has showed us is that by the last quarter of 1941 the Allies can base fighters and medium bombers in Crete. History has showed us that Crete was able to feed its population and a 75,000 occupation army (maxed at 1943). This happened with threadbare (german) logistics, Allied naval supremacy, guerilla warfare in the mountains and a hostile civilian population that needed to be encouraged with the lash and bayonet to work as corvee labour (and sabotaged everything they could). A civilian population that preferred to see their villages burned and suffer executions than betray SOE agents.

In contrast to some myths, the Germans were not Ubermensch or incredibly capable. And no Skippy magically helped them. The Allies can develop Crete at the very least (if everything else is totally screwed) at the same degree the Germans did. Not to mention that for the Germans Crete was of reduced importance- mainly they wanted to keep it off british hands (hint: Ploesti). Even without investing much, they had 5 airfields staging hundreds of sorties, they supplied a large garrison, improved the road network and built defensive works.

 

[Julius Vogel]

Presumably the Germans were able to use Greek industry though. I have no idea about the state of the Greek cement industry in 1940, but presumably there was one!

 

[HappyChappy]

In contrast to some myths, the Germans were not Ubermensch or incredibly capable. And no Skippy magically helped them. The Allies can develop Crete at the very least (if everything else is totally screwed) at the same degree the Germans did. Not to mention that for the Germans Crete was of reduced importance- mainly they wanted to keep it off british hands (hint: Ploesti). Even without investing much, they had 5 airfields staging hundreds of sorties, they supplied a large garrison, improved the road network and built defensive works.

You’re right, the Allies will absolutely develop Crete.

I just don’t think they have the resources/shipping to make it a significant base for Strategic Bombing in 41/42. They will be focusing those resources on concreting SE England and East Anglia for Bomber Command.

By the time there are enough resources/shipping available they’ll probably be able to use bases in Sicily/Italy instead.

 

[X Oristos]

Presumably the Germans were able to use Greek industry though. I have no idea about the state of the Greek cement industry in 1940, but presumably there was one!

Indeed there was one! The main problem is that the production crashed during the Axis occupation. A well-sourced doctoral thesis in greek states that the greek production of cement went from 342k tons in 1939 to 60k in 1941, 34k in 1942, 80k in 1943 and 48k in 1944.

This cement was used not just in Crete but in all Axis projects and fortifications in the whole country. Out of 115k tons that were produced from 13/9/1941 to 1/10/1943, 35k tons were used by the Heer, 29k by the Kriegsmarine and 34k by the Luftwaffe (mostly for the cretan airfields and 6 major ones in the mainland). The Italians used 19k tons of cement and the greek collaboration government and private citizens used 4k tons.

 

[MattII]

Hm, what's the state of the airfields of Rhodes? Because if they're okay, it might be worth more developing them, rather than the Cretan fields.

 

[sonofpegasus]

The Allies do not need to make Crete a base for strategic bombing. Just holding Crete and developing the airfields so fighters, medium bombers and strike aircraft can be based there sufficient that the Axis air offensive capability, especially anti shipping sorties are negated and the Luftwaffe forced to defend the Islands and Greece against attack. That in itself is a strategic objective obtained, namely securing North Africa and the Mediterranean supply route to and from the far east.

 

[marathag]

I was going on the following from Wiki.

At the start of the Berlin Airlift the runways at Tempelhof Airport in the US Zone of Berlin were made of PSP. Designed to support fighters and smaller cargo aircraft, the Douglas C-54 Skymaster that formed the backbone of the U.S. effort was too heavy for the PSP

normal loaded weight was 37 tons, similar to B-29, but C-54s for Berlin were heavily loaded past that amount, with low fuel loads and maximum cargo.
so landed very heavy as well, that's far more damaging than just taxiing around or takeoffs

 

[unknownchild]

ah ha i think i found part of this heavy bomber on steel matting problem
i think its us vs british terms for similar but different things

british steel matting
thers another type i cant find now that was for unrolling in front of trucks on the normandy beaches

 

[Seawolf]

If I held Crete but was having Lancasters fly out of North Africa to hit targets in Germany. I would keep Crete and Rhodes as an alternate landing site.

 

[MattII]

Even without basing heavy bombers out of there, Crete can be used to support an invasion of Rhodes, and the other Aegean islands.

 

[Icedaemon]

With the most direct route between India and Crete open, I cannot see any problems to turning Crete into one giant airbase if the British planners consider it important enough to devote shipping to it.

 

[MarcH]

With the most direct route between India and Crete open, I cannot see any problems to turning Crete into one giant airbase if the British planners consider it important enough to devote shipping to it.

The last part of your post is the most important, where does the shipping come from. Do you divert shipping from the build up of troops in North Africa? that could be disastrous. Do you take it away from the North Atlantic, I really doubt it.

The simple fact is that having Crete as a giant heavy bomber airbase is a nice to have. Britain cannot support any nice to haves right now, or for the foreseeable future given events that are likely to occur.

 

[X Oristos]

The last part of your post is the most important, where does the shipping come from. Do you divert shipping from the build up of troops in North Africa? that could be disastrous.

To be fair, the North African Campaign will be over before major bomber bases can be built (if they built). The logistics of the Italian are much worse in TTL with just Tripoli as a port and Benghazi serving as a RAF base. If I make correct assumptions regarding the author's intentions is that the British are planning for a limited offensive first (to reach e.g. Sirte) and then a second one for Tripoli. It really makes sense, since the situation in Cyrenaica did not disintegrate and a proper build up has taken place during the spring.

For an ATL Battleaxe the British have the 7th Armoured Division, 7th and 9th Australian Infantry, 4th Indian Infantry, 2 Armoured Brigades of the 2nd Armoured Division and if needed 2 Infantry Brigades from the (future) 70th division.

When November comes for the ATL Crusader, the British will also have the 2nd Armoured in total (the brigade from Greece will have been rebuilt around new hardware), the 1st and 2nd South African, 2nd NZ, the full 70th and the Carpathian Brigade. A more powerful 8th Army (mostly due to not losing 2nd Armoured).

In the meantime, supplying Malta will be easier, since the east route will be covered from aircraft flying from Benghazi. Malta could host more fighters and Stringbags earlier and Force K could be established a couple of months earlier.

Between Malta and Benghazi, Axiss logistics will be much worse compared to the OTL. Fewer vehicles, less fuel, smaller ammo stocks.

I sincerely think that Tripoli will have fallen by Christmas 1941.

 

[MattII]

To be fair, the North African Campaign will be over before major bomber bases can be built (if they built). The logistics of the Italian are much worse in TTL with just Tripoli as a port and Benghazi serving as a RAF base. If I make correct assumptions regarding the author's intentions is that the British are planning for a limited offensive first (to reach e.g. Sirte) and then a second one for Tripoli. It really makes sense, since the situation in Cyrenaica did not disintegrate and a proper build up has taken place during the spring.

For an ATL Battleaxe the British have the 7th Armoured Division, 7th and 9th Australian Infantry, 4th Indian Infantry, 2 Armoured Brigades of the 2nd Armoured Division and if needed 2 Infantry Brigades from the (future) 70th division.

When November comes for the ATL Crusader, the British will also have the 2nd Armoured in total (the brigade from Greece will have been rebuilt around new hardware), the 1st and 2nd South African, 2nd NZ, the full 70th and the Carpathian Brigade. A more powerful 8th Army (mostly due to not losing 2nd Armoured).

In the meantime, supplying Malta will be easier, since the east route will be covered from aircraft flying from Benghazi. Malta could host more fighters and Stringbags earlier and Force K could be established a couple of months earlier.

Between Malta and Benghazi, Axiss logistics will be much worse compared to the OTL. Fewer vehicles, less fuel, smaller ammo stocks.

I sincerely think that Tripoli will have fallen by Christmas 1941.

I think they're going for a three-drive advance, Brevity to push the front forward, somewhat closer to Sirte, but not all the way there, as that will be the plan for Battleaxe, and Crusader will finally be the drive to Tripoli.

If the British are smart, they could see that if they could build temporary ports near a front would apply not only here, but any time later in the war where they have to make an amphibious assault, but don't think it likely that they'll be able to liberate a convenient port within the first few days.

 

[kelgar04]

Could Crete be used as a fighter base and maritime patrol base faster than a bomber base? It would help cover convoys in the eastern med, though I imagine this would have to wait till something like the Hurricane could be freed up.

 

[MattII]

Could Crete be used as a fighter base and maritime patrol base faster than a bomber base? It would help cover convoys in the eastern med, though I imagine this would have to wait till something like the Hurricane could be freed up.

Assuming most of your MPAs are either Avro Ansons, or Short Sunderlands, I'd say probably yes.