Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[HappyChappy]

Counterpoint, Tinian Island in July 1944 compared to July 1945

That's North Field, West Field in the distance. The Japanese just had two small runways, one at each location.
The SeeBees expanded out to four, 8500 foot long strips, with additional taxiway and parking handstands on the North, and a pair of 8500 foot strips for bombers, 5000 foot for fighters, and two shorter auxiliary strips South of that West Field.

I’m not really familiar with the war in the Pacific but I assume that there were limited options for building such a base.

By the time sufficient American resources are available for a strategic bombing offensive in the Med there will probably be bases in Sicily and Italy to use.

Britain won’t be able to build up Crete to the level for a strategic bombing offensive on its own while it is constructing bases at home for the CBO.

That is also in 1944/5, so the USA War Economy is churning stuff out like there’s no tomorrow, there isn’t that level of resources available in 1941/2.

 

[marathag]

Which is possible because America had the resources to do so at the time, and it was critical to the theatre that they did so. Here, now, in this timeline, the U.K. simply doesn’t have the resources to do so in a theatre that is secondary.

Is bombing Romania a secondary, or primary concern? Crete is 700 miles away from the oilfields.
Berlin was 600 miles from London.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Counterpoint, Tinian Island in July 1944 compared to July 1945

That's North Field, West Field in the distance. The Japanese just had two small runways, one at each location.
The SeeBees expanded out to four, 8500 foot long strips, with additional taxiway and parking handstands on the North, and a pair of 8500 foot strips for bombers, 5000 foot for fighters, and two shorter auxiliary strips South of that West Field.
Tinian is 39 square miles in area

Basically what Paulo said - he UK doesn't have the resources in 1941 0r 1942. 1943, maybe, with US help.

 

[marathag]

Basically what Paulo said - he UK doesn't have the resources in 1941 0r 1942. 1943, maybe, with US help.

Labor battalions are pretty cheap. Have enough labor, you don't need fancy construction gear, either, see how the Chinese B-29 bases were setup.
The real problem is prying bombers away from Harris.
That's a political issue, not resource.

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Labor battalions are pretty cheap. Have enough labor, you don't need fancy construction gear, either, see how the Chinese B-29 bases were setup.
The real problem is prying bombers away from Harris.
That's a political issue, not resource.

I don't think there is enough cheap labour on Crete. Or food to bring in "coolies".

 

[Sooty]

I don't think there is enough cheap labour on Crete. Or food to bring in "coolies".

There's a lot of troops who need to be kept busy!

 

[HappyChappy]

I don't think there is enough cheap labour on Crete. Or food to bring in "coolies".

I’d imagine shipping is the big constraint? Some things could be sent from India/Africa (concrete?, food?) but munitions, vehicles, spares etc still have to sail from Britain and around the Cape to get to Cretan waters.

I can’t see there being enough spare shipping to build strategic bombing bases in 41/42.

 

[marathag]

I don't think there is enough cheap labour on Crete. Or food to bring in "coolies".

Lucky Crete is near Suez, so UK can bring in loads from elsewhere in the Empire

 

[Finbarr the Fair]

Lucky Crete is near Suez, so UK can bring in loads from elsewhere in the Empire

Maybe but food and shipping is less simple.

 

[DDM]

I’d imagine shipping is the big constraint? Some things could be sent from India/Africa (concrete?, food?) but munitions, vehicles, spares etc still have to sail from Britain and around the Cape to get to Cretan waters.

I can’t see there being enough spare shipping to build strategic bombing bases in 41/42.

Why not continue to base out of Libya where they launched from for the Ploesti raid or even outside of Alexandria which is only about 40 or 50 miles flying time further. Then they can use Crete as mentioned for fighter escort and emergency landing. Basically Marianas and Iwo Jima relationship bombing wise. Libya keeps Italy as an alternate target but has the poor harbors while Alexandria is really only to strike Ploesti but has excellent logistics and manpower availability.

 

[X Oristos]

Labor battalions are pretty cheap. Have enough labor, you don't need fancy construction gear, either, see how the Chinese B-29 bases were setup.

Let's see what a single british pound gets as labor in Crete.

According to official government data of 1939, 48% of all male salaried workers in Greece received ≤60 drachmas daily wage. So, let's go with 60 drachmas. The pound was exchanged with ~550 drachmas before the war. So, 1 pound buys 9 days of labor and some change. Women got 40 drachmas per day, so 1 pound buys you 13,75 days of female labor. When it comes to underage males, it was 20 drachmas per day, so 1 pound buys 27,5 days of a teenager helping.

I don't think there is enough cheap labour on Crete. Or food to bring in "coolies".

According to the 1940 census the local population was 452,025 people. Crete was self-sufficient in food. Even though it was completely cut off from imports and the Germans regularly looted the countryside, there were not deaths by hunger. Moreover, Crete exported some small quantities of olive oil to Athens during the Great Famine of 1941-1942. And Germans looted often and brutally.

The plain of Messara produced enough grain for the needs of the island and the island as whole it produced more than enough fats (olive oil).

To sum it up, Crete can feed itself and has tens of thousands of potential workers. No imported food or labor is needed.

 

[CB13]

The one caveat for those questioning if Britain has the resources to deploy bombers in Crete is that just the potential threat of those bombers will necessitate a significant reallocation of German/Axis fighters away from other strategic bombing targets in central Germany and although the British don't know it yet, away from the Russian Theater. So as they already will need to build airstrips to support Allied Fighters, Maritime Partrol Aircraft and Torpedo Bombers, the issue is the incremental cost of the lengthened and reinforced runways....but basic runways, and the requisite improved port and transportation facilities, have to be paid for regardless.

 

[wally]

Labor battalions are pretty cheap. Have enough labor, you don't need fancy construction gear, either, see how the Chinese B-29 bases were setup.
The real problem is prying bombers away from Harris.
That's a political issue, not resource.

Have to disagree here. The problem is shipping for all the resources to set up the many bases and then keep them going. So for your bomber group how many airfields will you need? How many additional airfields for the fighters and other planes to support the offence. How much concrete and other building material will you need for all of this. How many ships will you need to carry this all around africa until FNA and Sicily are taken. How many ships will you need for the bombs and other supplies to keep the offence going.

Now that you know how much shipping you need, what are you going to give up to provide this shipping? How much less food or steel going to the UK? And remember how many months from UK to Crete and back via the cape. How many Canada - UK runs could be done at the same time ? Good chance of a slower build up for North Africa as some of the ships carrying what the army needs will now be for the RAF in Crete. No chance of any build up/resupply to Far east in 1941 as no spare ships if you building and supplying an air offence in 1941 from Crete.

 

[marathag]

. How much concrete and other building material will you need for all of this.

No shortage of Limestone on Crete, that material was as old as the Minoans using it for an early type of what would later improved and be called 'Roman Concrete'

 

[wally]

No shortage of Limestone on Crete, that material was as old as the Minoans using it for an early type of what would later improved and be called 'Roman Concrete'

For your bomber group you are looking at 4 class A airfields being built just for the bombers. This is if you going for heavy bombers. As you said bomber group, I taking this as 1 wing or 2 sgn per airfield and 4 wings for your group. 18 bombers per sqn including reseves giving 36 per field/wing and 144 for the group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_A_airfield
Good part in the wiki link is about construction

Construction​

The material needs for building runways suitable for heavy bombers were approximately 18,000 tons of dry cement and 90,000 tons of aggregate. Expected stress factors of 2,000 pounds per square inch led to runway thicknesses of six to nine inches of concrete slab laid on a hardcore base, covered with a layer of asphalt. In areas where there was no natural rock, such as East Anglia, stone had to be imported for the hardcore. Up to six trains ran daily from London to east Anglia carrying rubble from destroyed buildings in Luftwaffe raids. This material was used as hardcore for the airfields.[1]

Now your class A airfield has 3 of these runways in a triangle. So for each Class A airfield you need 54K tons of cement and 270K tons of aggregate. For four of these airfields to hold you bomber group you looking at 208K tons of cement and 1080K tons of aggregate. I leave you to work out how many tons of asphalt and hardcore would also be needed.

So how many quaries are on Crete and how much can be dug from them each day. If not how many 8K to 10K cargo ships will you need to bring the extra and from where. Please note that the only concrete factory at the time was in Palestine and was busy trying to keep up demend from Wavell lot. http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Med-I/UK-Med-I-4.html

That is before you get to the workshops, hangers and other buildings the base will need. On top of this you need to update the ports in south of Crete to handle the volume of supplies you need and then have the roads or railways built to transport it all to were you builing your airfield. All of which means more stuff needed to be shipped in and need to decided what is not shipped in it's place. This is the time when approx 2 million tons of British shipping was out being repaired from the BoA. So ships are at a premium.

 

[MattII]

And once you bag Rhodes, you have another load of airbases about equally distant from Ploesti, but further from the Greek mainland.

 

[X Oristos]

How much concrete and other building material will you need for all of this. How many ships will you need to carry this all around africa until FNA and Sicily are taken.

Well, the British can always ship cement from India. In 1938, India produced 1,5 million tons of cement. Class A airfields need 18k tons of dry cement and trust me there is no need to ship aggragate as it is mined locally. I m pretty sure the Commonwealth can afford to send the material. No need to involve british cement. Moreover, in TTL there will no reason at all to develop heavy bomber airfields from scratch in Palestine to base USAAF B-24s.

Besides, I m pretty sure Tripoli will fall sooner than 23rd January 1943 (OTL). There will be no reason for the British to continue developing infrastructure in the Western Desert after Tripolitania is conquered.

So how many quaries are on Crete and how much can be dug from them each day.

Well, we can take a look at the actual history of occupied Crete. The german airfield at Tympaki was built from scratch with local materials and local (forced) labor. The airfields at Maleme, Rethymnon and Heraklion were expanded with local materials and labor. These airfields did not host heavy bombers, but hosted a significant part of the X. Fliegerkorps with twin-engined bombers and fighters.

If the Germans could do it, are the Allies incapable of doing the same thing? So, OTL shows that 4 supporting airfields that can host twin-engined bombers and fighters can be built without involving Britain and precious shipping. To build the infrastructure for a staging bombers (that will have the Delta as their main bases) is doable with additional help from the Commonwealth - the locals will have your fighter airfields built on their own.

So your following answer has been answered by OTL

How many additional airfields for the fighters and other planes to support the offence

Now that you know how much shipping you need, what are you going to give up to provide this shipping? How much less food or steel going to the UK? And remember how many months from UK to Crete and back via the cape. How many Canada - UK runs could be done at the same time ?

No less food for the UK compared to OTL. We have established that the airfields can be built without a single truckload of cement from Britain. All the rest needed for an airfield to operate (bombs, spares etc) were sent already in OTL to Western Desert, Delta and Palestine. The 98th Bombardment Group in Palestine in OTL had in any case to get its bombs from the States. Of course, in TTL you can still base the Group in 1942 in Palestine just for ... flying missions against empty desert.

Good chance of a slower build up for North Africa as some of the ships carrying what the army needs will now be for the RAF in Crete.

In TTL the Commonwealth is doing incredibly better in Libya. I really cannot see the Libyan Campaign getting prolonged as much as in OTL when the Axis have a single port and the British have Cyrenaica. Build up North Africa for ... what exactly?

No chance of any build up/resupply to Far east in 1941 as no spare ships if you building and supplying an air offence in 1941 from Crete.

I sincerely don't think that anybody suggested an air offensive from Crete during 1941.

What would make sense at an initial stage (second half of 1941) is to repair the existing airfields for fighters and the odd Swordfish squadron. The Far East can not be affected in any manner.

To the contrary, I suggested that the existing camps in Palestine are needed to house and retrain the surviving Greek Army. So, the Cavalry Division can go to an imperial backwater (e.g. Malaya) to transition to the 10th Armoured. Likewise, there is really no need for at least an infantry division (e.g 70th or an australian one) and it can be also send early on in Malaya.

After all, the East African Campaign is proceeding faster compared to OTL, curtesy of the infantry tanks in Sudan. As soon as Massawa falls, the 4th Indian can return in Egypt. Without the initial german success in Cyrenaica, the British can build an Army earlier than in OTL, freeing up units for other uses. This further supports sending the previously mentioned units at the Far East.

 

[marathag]

From the wiki, Pierced Steel Planking started to be used by the end of 1941. One Liberty Ship used 21% of its Hold volume for 150'x5000' worth of PSP.
By December 1941, 4M Square feet had been manufactured.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

No shortage of Limestone on Crete, that material was as old as the Minoans using it for an early type of what would later improved and be called 'Roman Concrete'

Except to manufacture industrial quantities of cement, you need actual heavy industry to roast the limestone.
If there weren't any cement works on Crete in 1941 (I have no information on whether there were at the time of this post), there is a problem here...

 

[wally]

From the wiki, Pierced Steel Planking started to be used by the end of 1941. One Liberty Ship used 21% of its Hold volume for 150'x5000' worth of PSP.
By December 1941, 4M Square feet had been manufactured.

Pierced Steel Planking cannot be used by 4 engine planes as they are too heavy. So you are looking at twin engine medium to light bombers instead. Which is fine, but less bombs carried.

The issue I had was it appearing that by end of 1941 there would be lots of heavy bombers flying from crete. This is not possible with the supply needs to set it up. Just look at the supply hog bomber command was in UK.

In 1938, India produced 1,5 million tons of cement. Class A airfields need 18k tons of dry cement and trust me there is no need to ship aggragate as it is mined locally

You still need to ship it in from India. In late 1940 - mid 1941 there is no spare shipping as of the repair crisis which removed 2 million tons or 13% of UK shipping. So it all being used currrently. If these are being shipped that something else will not. Remember that 18K is for 1 runway and the class 1 airfield for bomber command had 3 of these runways. One of the reasons why bomber command was a resource hog.

The 98th Bombardment Group in Palestine in OTL had in any case to get its bombs from the States.

The reason for it being in Palestine would probabily be the Haifa Oil Refinery so reducing the transport need for oil hunrgy heavy bombers

I really cannot see the Libyan Campaign getting prolonged as much as in OTL when the Axis have a single port and the British have Cyrenaica. Build up North Africa for ... what exactly

From the last update O'Conner is looking at a min of 2 campaigns to clear out rest of Libya, maybe 1 or more depending on how the german counter attacks go. These will need to have large ammount of supplies gathered beforehand and so needing shipping to bring it in. Shipping that cannot be used to create heavy bomber bases.

Now once the americans join that's another story as huge amount of additional shipping has been added. But remember the more shipping can be saved the more it can be used for other uses. For example getting iron ore from FNA instead of america, gives shorter jounery and can carry things each way instead of empty on the way to USA. Getting the italian settlers or Libyans to keep farming in Cyrenaica instead of it being a war zone for several years gives more local grown food and less need for imports. Not having enough shipping leaves you with problems like the Bengal famine once the burmese rice had been lost.