allanpcameron
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I wish you guys would stop reading my notes. The next update, already written, is the saga of the proposed Peregrine derated engine, and the solutions which presented itself.
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
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It is the obvious choice once the decision is made to finally retire that pile of rusty parts and bolts referred to as the Liberty( did the name originate from all the parts wanting to liberate them selves from the whole? 😲 ).Peregrin is an orphan, works,about the right power(the Kestrel made 475 on pool gas) weight and size and with the merlin still in short supply .
Having said all that in OTL you are about 8 weeks away from when the Meteor was chosen as the new tank engine.
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I've been suspecting a limited production run for the A15 for a while now, the only question is does the run stop early or do you keep producing the A15 just to keep the line busy until something better (Victor) comes along.
The A15 design by itself isn't that bad, better than the Panzer 3 and 4 in some respects early on at least. OTL it had a few problems though all stemming from the same thing, a lack of time. Nuffield by this point have just under 4 years experience building tanks and are already onto their third design. Compare that to the Germans who started in 1932 with the Panzer 1 and then 34 for the Panzer 2, the Panzer three designs started in 36 but took three years to get into service. Because of this rush a lot of iterative design took place rather than being able to stop and look at what worked and what didn't, even so the A15 is a decent enough design, just one that came too late whilst being rushed. The other big problem the Crusader had along with the Cavalier later on was simply poor execution in the details. The Cromwell shows how good the base design of that tank was, the problem with the Nuffield effort was that they could not get the details right and we are seeing that here with the A15.
You are right though that Britain did 'Mature' during the war when it came to AFV's, a lot of this though can be put down to being able to develop the designs properly as they were getting Lend Lease Sherman's by the literal boat load. The Valiant gives Britain that time earlier ITTL, though it also in some ways makes it so Britain does not need the time.
As for the Cromwell, wont happen ITTL. What does it give that the Valiant already doesn't except speed? The Valiant I has thicker armour and the Valiant II is almost as fast. In addition we are already seeing 'Infantry' tanks being given to units that should have Cruiser tanks. That shows that the lines are being blurred already for the British, I doubt the separate tank types remains for long.
The base designs of the Nuffield tanks was quite good, Cromwell is a case in point. The execution is what let Nuffield down, the fine details.
The A15 will be made for now as Britain still needs the tanks, even if they are only for training purposes. The question becomes do you stop production soon oto switch to the Valiant say or keep it going longer to switch to the Victor sooner. As the Victor design matures and comes close to being production ready Vickers will switch first but Nuffield being right on their heels makes sense. That way any lessons from the Vickers production can be slotted into the Nuffield production lines as they are almost ready so production hits the ground at pace.
As for the Peregrine, won't happen. And I though this even before I read Allan's latest post.
A15 likely requires too much work to get right at this point and is probably a bit heavy as well at this time in the war. The basic idea is sound and having a cruiser sized tank beef up the scouting forces isn't a bad idea. The ideal candidate in some ways would be the A9, you have the 5 man crew so separate radio operator which is a benefit. The downside is obviously the suspension and also armour level. Beef up the armour to 40mm front and turret etc, Christie suspension, better engine and if possible 60"+ turret ring and you are golden.
ITTL the A15 is going to be used for home service and training much like the Covenator was OTL. This is not such a bad thing. Until 1942 there was a possibility that the Germans would make short work of the Russians and try an unmentionable sea mammal soon after. Britain needs some tanks at home just in case and better the meh A15 than the great Valiant.
Alan has already mentioned the other bonus of honing the mechanical skills of newly trained tank crews with isduing them with a temperamental tank. It's also worth considering that most of the issues will be worked out without the failings being discovered in combat as in OTL (much as they were with the Covenator).
I suspect some hulls will be used as artillery tractors as OTL. Hobart might be given some to play with in the early development of the "funnies" but I think Alan wants Vickers to take lead on this . ITTL Vickers are already working on various other uses for tank hulls like SPG and SPAAG etc so I doubt Nuffield would get a look in for these variants. Although Nuffield might use the A15 as the basis for an APC. This would allow the production line to quickly switch to producing a new APC variant when they realise that the A15 isn't going to be needed in big numbers. The establishment would probably like this as ITTL Vickers are rather busy and their tanks are also rather good so no one would want to interrupt their production.
As MarcH said above a heavy element to reconocence forces might be a use for the A.15. However I think that would only be a short term solution as would be the Tetarch. It won't be long before the British start deploying heavy armoured cars with 2 pounder and later 6 pounder guns. And by 1943 if the British realy want a second rate tank to beef up the cavalry and so leaving the real fighting for the later marks of Valiants and early Victors, they could always use lend lease Sherman's!
Please don't take the last sentence seriously!
Alan has already mentioned the other bonus of honing the mechanical skills of newly trained tank crews with isduing them with a temperamental tank. It's also worth considering that most of the issues will be worked out without the failings being discovered in combat as in OTL (much as they were with the Covenator).
I suspect some hulls will be used as artillery tractors as OTL. Hobart might be given some to play with in the early development of the "funnies" but I think Alan wants Vickers to take lead on this . ITTL Vickers are already working on various other uses for tank hulls like SPG and SPAAG etc so I doubt Nuffield would get a look in for these variants. Although Nuffield might use the A15 as the basis for an APC. This would allow the production line to quickly switch to producing a new APC variant when they realise that the A15 isn't going to be needed in big numbers. The establishment would probably like this as ITTL Vickers are rather busy and their tanks are also rather good so no one would want to interrupt their production.
As MarcH said above a heavy element to reconocence forces might be a use for the A.15. However I think that would only be a short term solution as would be the Tetarch. It won't be long before the British start deploying heavy armoured cars with 2 pounder and later 6 pounder guns. And by 1943 if the British realy want a second rate tank to beef up the cavalry and so leaving the real fighting for the later marks of Valiants and early Victors, they could always use lend lease Sherman's!
Please don't take the last sentence seriously!
Ah, the Liberty engine. If it's good enough for 1917, of course it's good enough for 1942.
With the A15 not going to the desert the reputation of the Nuffield Liberty won't be nearly so bad. Instead of "That f***ing disaster kept in production years longer than it should have" it will be "Good enough for a stopgap".
It's proving to be a maintenance hog, so it's reputation isn't likely to be much better than OTL.
To be fair To the Liberty the only inherent issue was complicated construction. The operational issues were more installation faults. In later use in Cavaliers and Crusader gun tractors these were largely resolved. However it was outmoded and slow and expensive to make.
And now they have an engine that is all-around better, in the Perkins diesel Lion.
But you don't have enough of them, the A15 isn't designed for them and anyway is looking to be mostly a second line reserve and training tank so why take the time and effort to rework it?
Not much point. However, that also means that there doesn't need to be a whole bevy of companies producing it either. Hopefully some of them can be switched to Valiants or even Victors when the time comes.
If it's being kept in the UK and used for training it might never see combat and there is a difference between any vehicle's reliability in training conditions in the north-west Europe and combat in the desert. It's reliability won't be great in comparison to other, better designs but it won't look awful and will just get written off as a stopgap used to train units who went into combat in Victors.
It'll still be a blow for William Morris, knowing his tanks aren't good enough to see proper (ie, front-line) service.
Oh absolutely, but assuming it's used to equip UK based units and gets phased out in favour of the Victor in the history books it will have a better reputation than OTL, as a useful stop gap and then as a training tool. Rather than it's OTL reputation as an unreliable piece of junk that got a lot of soldiers killed.
4 March 1941. Wolverhampton, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
4 March 1941. Wolverhampton, England.
The failure to have a working Meadows built Peregrine-based engine for the Victor’s prototype had shone a light onto the company that felt a bit uncomfortable for the management and design team. Taking an engine designed by Rolls-Royce for aircraft and then trying to simplify it for mass production in tanks had proven as big a challenge that the management had foreseen when approached by Vickers in 1939.
With having to spend so much time of getting manufacturing of the petrol Lion engine up and running, the design team’s ability to work on the Peregrine had been limited. It was only when Vickers had approached Rover and Leyland to help with both the petrol Lion and the Peregrine, that there was enough spare capacity, collectively, to really get to grips with the follow-on engine that Vickers wanted for the Victor tank.
Because Rolls-Royce’s design teams were working flat out, they had no one to spare to help progress the Peregrine tank version. In fact, Ernest Hives had expressed to the Air Ministry that he wanted to stop wasting time on the Peregrine altogether to concentrate on the Merlin and Griffon engines. The only people Rolls-Royce had going spare were Roy Robotham and his chassis design and development division at Clan Foundry, Belper. Sir John Carden had been made aware of this, and had approached Robotham to ask for his help.
Bring fresh eyes to the issue, Robotham had spent time with the combined designers of Meadows, Leyland and Rover to see what the problems were with getting the de-rated Peregrine ready for use in a tank. When he suggested that they were looking at the wrong engine, and should think about using the Merlin as the basis instead, the team gave a collective groan. The problem that Carden had found when approaching Hives at Rolls-Royce initially was that the Merlin was powering so many aircraft that the Air Ministry just wasn’t interested in sharing. Hives had suggested the Peregrine for the very reason that it wasn’t as popular, or as powerful, as the Merlin. It would therefore, perhaps, be more available.
Robotham however wasn’t put off. There were plenty of damaged, or otherwise, unairworthy, Merlin III engines lying around. Getting hold of a few of these was done, and the specifications for a tank engine based on the Merlin were looked at. First of all, much of the aircraft specific parts of the engine were removed, such as the supercharger, starter and propeller reduction gear, which meant the crankshaft was easier to construct. The main problem facing the designers was to reverse the engine’s rotation since a tank’s gear box ran the opposite way from a propeller. This involved changes to the camshaft. A lot of this was actually very easy to do, because of the work done previously with the Peregrine, which needed the same adaptions.
Since Robotham and his team had got involved in the late summer of the 194o, work had progressively shifted from the Peregrine to the Merlin. With the design of the Victor in mind, the new engine had undergone some more changes to work with the Merrit-Brown gear box, but, as with most tank engines, the greatest headache was dealing with cooling problems. With Vickers as the parent company for the Victor, having four companies with experience in engines working together, meant that various solutions were available and tested. Eventually a solution presented itself due to the combined work of the team.
The good news back from Farnborough was that the Victor prototype, powered by the Merlin derived tank engine, had exceeded expectations. The problem now was to build enough of them. The Ministry of Supply needed the production facilities of Meadows, Rover and Leyland to expand to meet demand. While the first engines could be build using parts of unairworthy Merlins, realistically they would need completely newly built engines, and that would take work and investment. Since the engine wasn’t needed to fly, some of the components could be made from steel rather than the light alloys used on the aircraft version. Parts of the engine could be cast rather than forged, all of which meant that there would be no hinderance from the tank engine production at the expense of Rolls-Royce’s aero-engines. In addition, a one-off payment to Rolls-Royce from Vickers was made for the use of Merlin engine, since they would not otherwise benefit commercially from the production of this amended version their product. To differentiate the two engines, the name ‘Meteor’ was attached to the tank engine, and at the insistence of the company, it continued to be known as the ‘Rolls-Royce’ Meteor.
NB this is obviously a bit different from OTL, but advances the arrival of the Meteor by a few months, and increased production by probably a year. Instead of having to wait for the design of the Cromwell for the new engine, the Victor is about ready to go into production in 1941.
The failure to have a working Meadows built Peregrine-based engine for the Victor’s prototype had shone a light onto the company that felt a bit uncomfortable for the management and design team. Taking an engine designed by Rolls-Royce for aircraft and then trying to simplify it for mass production in tanks had proven as big a challenge that the management had foreseen when approached by Vickers in 1939.
With having to spend so much time of getting manufacturing of the petrol Lion engine up and running, the design team’s ability to work on the Peregrine had been limited. It was only when Vickers had approached Rover and Leyland to help with both the petrol Lion and the Peregrine, that there was enough spare capacity, collectively, to really get to grips with the follow-on engine that Vickers wanted for the Victor tank.
Because Rolls-Royce’s design teams were working flat out, they had no one to spare to help progress the Peregrine tank version. In fact, Ernest Hives had expressed to the Air Ministry that he wanted to stop wasting time on the Peregrine altogether to concentrate on the Merlin and Griffon engines. The only people Rolls-Royce had going spare were Roy Robotham and his chassis design and development division at Clan Foundry, Belper. Sir John Carden had been made aware of this, and had approached Robotham to ask for his help.
Bring fresh eyes to the issue, Robotham had spent time with the combined designers of Meadows, Leyland and Rover to see what the problems were with getting the de-rated Peregrine ready for use in a tank. When he suggested that they were looking at the wrong engine, and should think about using the Merlin as the basis instead, the team gave a collective groan. The problem that Carden had found when approaching Hives at Rolls-Royce initially was that the Merlin was powering so many aircraft that the Air Ministry just wasn’t interested in sharing. Hives had suggested the Peregrine for the very reason that it wasn’t as popular, or as powerful, as the Merlin. It would therefore, perhaps, be more available.
Robotham however wasn’t put off. There were plenty of damaged, or otherwise, unairworthy, Merlin III engines lying around. Getting hold of a few of these was done, and the specifications for a tank engine based on the Merlin were looked at. First of all, much of the aircraft specific parts of the engine were removed, such as the supercharger, starter and propeller reduction gear, which meant the crankshaft was easier to construct. The main problem facing the designers was to reverse the engine’s rotation since a tank’s gear box ran the opposite way from a propeller. This involved changes to the camshaft. A lot of this was actually very easy to do, because of the work done previously with the Peregrine, which needed the same adaptions.
Since Robotham and his team had got involved in the late summer of the 194o, work had progressively shifted from the Peregrine to the Merlin. With the design of the Victor in mind, the new engine had undergone some more changes to work with the Merrit-Brown gear box, but, as with most tank engines, the greatest headache was dealing with cooling problems. With Vickers as the parent company for the Victor, having four companies with experience in engines working together, meant that various solutions were available and tested. Eventually a solution presented itself due to the combined work of the team.
The good news back from Farnborough was that the Victor prototype, powered by the Merlin derived tank engine, had exceeded expectations. The problem now was to build enough of them. The Ministry of Supply needed the production facilities of Meadows, Rover and Leyland to expand to meet demand. While the first engines could be build using parts of unairworthy Merlins, realistically they would need completely newly built engines, and that would take work and investment. Since the engine wasn’t needed to fly, some of the components could be made from steel rather than the light alloys used on the aircraft version. Parts of the engine could be cast rather than forged, all of which meant that there would be no hinderance from the tank engine production at the expense of Rolls-Royce’s aero-engines. In addition, a one-off payment to Rolls-Royce from Vickers was made for the use of Merlin engine, since they would not otherwise benefit commercially from the production of this amended version their product. To differentiate the two engines, the name ‘Meteor’ was attached to the tank engine, and at the insistence of the company, it continued to be known as the ‘Rolls-Royce’ Meteor.
NB this is obviously a bit different from OTL, but advances the arrival of the Meteor by a few months, and increased production by probably a year. Instead of having to wait for the design of the Cromwell for the new engine, the Victor is about ready to go into production in 1941.
What are you going to do with the Victor, you are going to have this massively arse kicking tank available in 1942 but likely nowhere to use it. North Africa is likely all over and unless you spavin the British Army at this point, they need somewhere to fight the Germans. One use I can see would be British units fighting in Russia, that puts the tank into service and helps keep the Soviets in the war. It will have the added benefit of reducing the ability of the soviets to claim they did all the fighting. The Far East would have to go better as well as there would have to be a very strong driver to release some armour to Malaysia, along with some of the forces not attrited in the fighting in North Africa.
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