Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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Bit of both, also if any Valentine's are in the area Rommel's anti tank men are in for a shock. Crap tank's (and manpower diversion) was the Achilles heel of the desert army, now its PzIV and probably even PzII vs really good tanks they can't kill but which can mangle them.
British Light Tanks, a thought.
So OTL the British moved away from Light Tanks following the Fall of France for a couple of reasons IIRC. The first was a belief that Armoured Cars were better suited for the role but the other was I believe the poor performance of the Light tanks during the fighting in France OTL. A big part of the poor performance was because the Light tanks were often used to make up the numbers so were going up against Panzers when they should have been well away from any major engagements.
Now ITTL the Lights weren't used anywhere near as widely in France due to the greater number of tanks Britain had. That in turn resulted in them mainly being used in Command and reconnaissance roles IIRC meaning they will have performed quite a bit better than OTL. So If the light tanks performed better it stands to reason that Britain would not have been quite so anti light tanks ITTL as OTL. I doubt they are going to be seen as an option for resources to be spent on, at least not yet, but those available may well be used more than OTL.
That brings me to the Mk VII Tetrarch, no I doubt it gets built in much greater numbers than OTL but it could potentially see service in North Africa ITTL. I know they weren't ideal, not least because of the cooling issues but there may be a deciding factor. The Capture of the German vehicles will have given Britain a pretty good idea of what the capabilities of the German recon elements were, that was mentioned in the latest post as being a thing. Good update by the way Allan. So with Britain knowing their reconnaissance forces are outgunned by the Germans I suggest they may well have sent some Tetrarch's out to North Africa to even the score somewhat.
How that plays out for Britain and the armoured cars and possibly light tanks they build going forward will depend. Though it possibly worth discussing however.
So OTL the British moved away from Light Tanks following the Fall of France for a couple of reasons IIRC. The first was a belief that Armoured Cars were better suited for the role but the other was I believe the poor performance of the Light tanks during the fighting in France OTL. A big part of the poor performance was because the Light tanks were often used to make up the numbers so were going up against Panzers when they should have been well away from any major engagements.
Now ITTL the Lights weren't used anywhere near as widely in France due to the greater number of tanks Britain had. That in turn resulted in them mainly being used in Command and reconnaissance roles IIRC meaning they will have performed quite a bit better than OTL. So If the light tanks performed better it stands to reason that Britain would not have been quite so anti light tanks ITTL as OTL. I doubt they are going to be seen as an option for resources to be spent on, at least not yet, but those available may well be used more than OTL.
That brings me to the Mk VII Tetrarch, no I doubt it gets built in much greater numbers than OTL but it could potentially see service in North Africa ITTL. I know they weren't ideal, not least because of the cooling issues but there may be a deciding factor. The Capture of the German vehicles will have given Britain a pretty good idea of what the capabilities of the German recon elements were, that was mentioned in the latest post as being a thing. Good update by the way Allan. So with Britain knowing their reconnaissance forces are outgunned by the Germans I suggest they may well have sent some Tetrarch's out to North Africa to even the score somewhat.
How that plays out for Britain and the armoured cars and possibly light tanks they build going forward will depend. Though it possibly worth discussing however.
The mad ideas on dispersing the artillery didn't exactly help the 8th army, either. Or (once panic was setting in and Rommel was on the offensive) breaking other things up and spreading everything out so Rommel could defeat things piecemeal at his convenience... Some serious command problems set in (not helped by security leaks, either, so that Rommel could take maximum advantage of mistakes.)
I think Churchill described the rank and file as 'Brave but bewildered' in mid-1942, or something such.
allanpcameron
Donor
The Italian depot at Bardia was taken over OTL, which I've used here too. Will fulfil the same role as having it at Tobruk, though shipping tanks by sea would be easier from Tobruk than Bardia. But if the train line from Marsa Metruh is extended to Sollum, then that would have much the same effect.
They'll still be near the end of their lives. Hoping HMS Terror doesn't meet the same fate, but we'll see. That's part of the AA story-line.
That is interesting, tell me more. Would like to read the source.
It should at least be a more even match. Which isn't good for the Germans.
When I was doing that last update I was looking at Armoured Cars. The Humber probably offers as much as the Tetrarch. Production of the tank was slow OTL, and not huge numbers have been ordered so far ITTL. I suppose it depends a bit on the M3 Stuart tank, which kind of rekindled the Light Tank/reconnaissance. In a straight up decision between a Tetrarch and a Stuart, the American comes out better in most aspects, even the Harry Hopkins doesn't really match up. But here, it is a valid question.
By keeping O'Connor and XIII Corps as Cyrenaica Command I'm hoping to those flaws will be mitigated in some way.
Thanks everyone.
Allan
Adding to this materially the Commonwealth Forces is also in a better position somewhat than OTL as well as adding to the fact the units involved aren't as spent as in OTL as well which means they are in a lot better position there as well.
24 February 1941. Cairo, Egypt.
allanpcameron
Donor
24 February 1941. Cairo, Egypt.
Brigadier Harold Charrington’s staff had been expecting the orders to come for a few days, so when the despatch rider entered First Armoured Brigade’s HQ with movement orders from GHQ Middle East Command, the process of putting them into to operation was quite smooth.
Ever since they’d arrived in Egypt, the three Armoured Regiments that made up the Brigade had felt side-lined. Their A13MkII Cruiser Mark IV tanks were felt to complicate an already complex supply chain. General Wavell had informed Charrington that the Prime Minister had requested that he build up a reserve force that would be available to go to the help of the Greeks, or even the Turks. With this in mind, Charrington had had his staff poring over maps of Greece, particularly trying to work out how the Germans might invade the country, either directly through Bulgaria, or indirectly through Yugoslavia.
When the British delegation had flown to Athens to consult with the Greeks, Charrington had gone with them. He had a pretty good idea of what the two main routes would be most likely used by the Germans, and how and where they would best be resisted. Charrington presented the case, from the point of view of a tank commander, and with some knowledge of how the German’s had shown they operated from their endeavours in Norway and the Low Countries. General Papagos, the Greek Commander-in-Chief found himself looking at the maps with a sinking feeling in his gut.
The Greek troops on the Albanian front had been fighting the Italians for four months without respite; despite their successes, the Greek army had suffered heavily, and were reaching the end of their endurance, all the while, the Italians were pouring more forces into Albania. If the Germans attacked directly through Bulgaria, the Metaxas defensive line had been developed against such a threat, but it was weak and weakly held. If the Germans attacked through Yugoslavia, then presumably the Yugoslav army would be fighting them. If the Germans attacked from both directions, as Charrington presumed was most likely, then holding them would be all but impossible. At the very least it would mean having to sacrifice a large part of the country. What the British officer had done was to emphasis just how fragile Greek independence was. With the offer of British help came the increased probability of German intervention.
The British conclusion was that they wanted to concentrate on what they called the Aliakmon position. It would run along the northern slopes of the Olympus-Pieria mountains and follow the line of the Vermion range north-wards to the Yugoslav border—over seventy miles in a straight line. There were only four major gaps in the line; one on each side of Mount Olympus; one which formed the valley of the river Aliakmon; and one, much wider, at Edessa, through which passed the road and railway from Florina to Salonika. Charrington added that the line would really need to be extended to protect its rear from an attack from the direction of Monastir in Yugoslavia.
The Italian attack the previous October had united the Greek nation and brought about a resolve. To meet a potential threat from Germany, from two possible directions, would mean having to withdraw from much of the area captured in Albania, which could well have a disastrous effect on Greek morale. Withdrawing what was currently on the Metaxas line, while shortening the line in Albania, could provide about 35 battalions for the Aliakmon position, with one or two (tired) divisions in reserve. If the British provided two Divisions (another 18 Battalions), General Papagos could see that the position would be formidable.
Generals Dill and Wavell agreed, but noted that the British expedition would have to land at Piraeus and Volos. Since the British had no pack animals it would be necessary to start at once on the improvement of communications to enable their mechanized forces, especially the medium artillery, to be able to get to their positions. What Charrington’s Armoured Brigade offered was a mobile force to delay the enemy by operating out in front, allowing more time for the Aliakmon positions to be enhanced. General Papagos, however, noted that it would be necessary to speak with the Yugoslavs. If the Aliakmon position wasn’t to be turned by a thrust through Monastir, then cooperation with the Yugoslav army would be necessary. Anthony Eden, the Foreign Secretary, agreed that he would approach the Yugoslav’s and ask for their help with this. Brigadier Charrington somewhat embarrassed the meeting by asking the Greek Commander-in-Chief to be explicit about his intentions if the Yugoslavs were not forthcoming. The Greek general thought for a moment or two before replying that he would go with the Aliakmon proposal, with, or without Yugoslav cooperation.
In the interests of being clear, the British Foreign Secretary asked to be assured that the Greek Government accepted the offer of British help of their own free will, and that the arrival of British troops in the numbers and on the conditions proposed would be sincerely welcomed by the Greek Government. The British did not wish to give the impression that they were forcing their offer on the Greeks; but wanted to be sure that they were anxious to accept it of their own free will. The Greek Government accepted with deep gratitude the offer of His Majesty's Government and entirely approved the military plan on which the military representatives had agreed. Greece would do her duty by herself and by her ally, Great Britain.
Back in Egypt it was now up to the staff of Charrington’s brigade to get the 150 tanks, with all their support vehicles and stores to Port Said, to be ready to be transported to Greece. The tanks would be accompanied by the other half of 2nd Support Group that wasn’t in Cyrenaica (1st Bn The Rangers, batteries of 104th Royal Horse Artillery, 102 Anti-Tank Regiment, 15th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment). An advance party would be leaving by aircraft the following day, with two aims. One would be for the arrangements of the arrival, disembarkation and logistical supply system for the Brigade. The other, would be a reconnaissance platoon, who would scout the roads from the port to the Aliakmon line and then the approaches to that position with a view of providing a screening force.
Brigadier Harold Charrington’s staff had been expecting the orders to come for a few days, so when the despatch rider entered First Armoured Brigade’s HQ with movement orders from GHQ Middle East Command, the process of putting them into to operation was quite smooth.
Ever since they’d arrived in Egypt, the three Armoured Regiments that made up the Brigade had felt side-lined. Their A13MkII Cruiser Mark IV tanks were felt to complicate an already complex supply chain. General Wavell had informed Charrington that the Prime Minister had requested that he build up a reserve force that would be available to go to the help of the Greeks, or even the Turks. With this in mind, Charrington had had his staff poring over maps of Greece, particularly trying to work out how the Germans might invade the country, either directly through Bulgaria, or indirectly through Yugoslavia.
When the British delegation had flown to Athens to consult with the Greeks, Charrington had gone with them. He had a pretty good idea of what the two main routes would be most likely used by the Germans, and how and where they would best be resisted. Charrington presented the case, from the point of view of a tank commander, and with some knowledge of how the German’s had shown they operated from their endeavours in Norway and the Low Countries. General Papagos, the Greek Commander-in-Chief found himself looking at the maps with a sinking feeling in his gut.
The Greek troops on the Albanian front had been fighting the Italians for four months without respite; despite their successes, the Greek army had suffered heavily, and were reaching the end of their endurance, all the while, the Italians were pouring more forces into Albania. If the Germans attacked directly through Bulgaria, the Metaxas defensive line had been developed against such a threat, but it was weak and weakly held. If the Germans attacked through Yugoslavia, then presumably the Yugoslav army would be fighting them. If the Germans attacked from both directions, as Charrington presumed was most likely, then holding them would be all but impossible. At the very least it would mean having to sacrifice a large part of the country. What the British officer had done was to emphasis just how fragile Greek independence was. With the offer of British help came the increased probability of German intervention.
The British conclusion was that they wanted to concentrate on what they called the Aliakmon position. It would run along the northern slopes of the Olympus-Pieria mountains and follow the line of the Vermion range north-wards to the Yugoslav border—over seventy miles in a straight line. There were only four major gaps in the line; one on each side of Mount Olympus; one which formed the valley of the river Aliakmon; and one, much wider, at Edessa, through which passed the road and railway from Florina to Salonika. Charrington added that the line would really need to be extended to protect its rear from an attack from the direction of Monastir in Yugoslavia.
The Italian attack the previous October had united the Greek nation and brought about a resolve. To meet a potential threat from Germany, from two possible directions, would mean having to withdraw from much of the area captured in Albania, which could well have a disastrous effect on Greek morale. Withdrawing what was currently on the Metaxas line, while shortening the line in Albania, could provide about 35 battalions for the Aliakmon position, with one or two (tired) divisions in reserve. If the British provided two Divisions (another 18 Battalions), General Papagos could see that the position would be formidable.
Generals Dill and Wavell agreed, but noted that the British expedition would have to land at Piraeus and Volos. Since the British had no pack animals it would be necessary to start at once on the improvement of communications to enable their mechanized forces, especially the medium artillery, to be able to get to their positions. What Charrington’s Armoured Brigade offered was a mobile force to delay the enemy by operating out in front, allowing more time for the Aliakmon positions to be enhanced. General Papagos, however, noted that it would be necessary to speak with the Yugoslavs. If the Aliakmon position wasn’t to be turned by a thrust through Monastir, then cooperation with the Yugoslav army would be necessary. Anthony Eden, the Foreign Secretary, agreed that he would approach the Yugoslav’s and ask for their help with this. Brigadier Charrington somewhat embarrassed the meeting by asking the Greek Commander-in-Chief to be explicit about his intentions if the Yugoslavs were not forthcoming. The Greek general thought for a moment or two before replying that he would go with the Aliakmon proposal, with, or without Yugoslav cooperation.
In the interests of being clear, the British Foreign Secretary asked to be assured that the Greek Government accepted the offer of British help of their own free will, and that the arrival of British troops in the numbers and on the conditions proposed would be sincerely welcomed by the Greek Government. The British did not wish to give the impression that they were forcing their offer on the Greeks; but wanted to be sure that they were anxious to accept it of their own free will. The Greek Government accepted with deep gratitude the offer of His Majesty's Government and entirely approved the military plan on which the military representatives had agreed. Greece would do her duty by herself and by her ally, Great Britain.
Back in Egypt it was now up to the staff of Charrington’s brigade to get the 150 tanks, with all their support vehicles and stores to Port Said, to be ready to be transported to Greece. The tanks would be accompanied by the other half of 2nd Support Group that wasn’t in Cyrenaica (1st Bn The Rangers, batteries of 104th Royal Horse Artillery, 102 Anti-Tank Regiment, 15th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment). An advance party would be leaving by aircraft the following day, with two aims. One would be for the arrangements of the arrival, disembarkation and logistical supply system for the Brigade. The other, would be a reconnaissance platoon, who would scout the roads from the port to the Aliakmon line and then the approaches to that position with a view of providing a screening force.
The Greek general thought for a moment or two before replying that he would go with the Aliakmon proposal, with, or without Yugoslav cooperation.
That's interesting...
That's interesting...
They seem willing to recognise reality, combined with better equipment and a plan they might be able to hold out, or at least hold the extreme south. If they can do that until late may Hitler will give up as his monomania for Russia kicks in and most of those troops are raced back north.
He'll assume he can come back in 1942 after he takes the A-A line which of course will never happen.
I only got that from an historian over at the Tanks Encyclopedia Discord server. He is writing a book on the obscure British WW2 guns, which include the 8pdr (better known, basically a 57mm gun with a heavier projectile and likely a bigger powder charge or longer barrel to propel it at the adequate speed), the 10pdr (no idea yet), the 12pdr (this weird dual-purpose gun) and likely a lot more.
From our discussion I gathered that the 12pdr was a program launched by Vickers before the US entered the war, like many programs to get either dual-purpose or higher penetration guns for the Commonwealth. This was cancelled for the 75mm gun instead since the US could provide the ammunition.
I can always ask more but if you think this is of interest to the TL you can always join the server and ask the user OhSlowpoke.
Well that is certainly an interesting update. The Fact the Greeks are willing to withdraw to the Aliakmon position certainly is a good thing and on paper at least the position should be quite strong. I suspect the reality however will be quite different. The Greeks will have to man a lot of the line and any serious German push will likely break through the positions. Their is also the issue of if the Greeks can move into position fast enough, even if they are screened by the First Armoured Brigade. Still this campaign will probably prove costly for the Germans if things go to plan, if not and the Greeks are caught in the open it will be an absolute disaster.
Yes a couple dozen Light tanks is hardly a game changer but will give a nice extra punch to units operating against German armoured cars. In addition there may have been a few extra made ITTL due to the lower post Fall of France panic.
I agree about the Humber with one small exception, the Humber was not delivered until 1941 whereas the first Tetrarch deliveries started in November 1940 OTL. That was why I asked about the Tetrarch specifically because there are actually some about, about 2 dozen I think based on OTL production. In addition the 15mm on the Humber at best matches the 20mm on the German vehicles while the 2pdr on the Tetrarch overmatches.
Yes a couple dozen Light tanks is hardly a game changer but will give a nice extra punch to units operating against German armoured cars. In addition there may have been a few extra made ITTL due to the lower post Fall of France panic.
Not sure when it came in but to add to those punch couldn’t they be equipped with the Littlejohn adaptor to increase their hitting power of it has been developed?
Not needed at this point, particularly if your only planning on shooting at Armoured cars etc which is what this would be.
The Littlejohn was mainly for extending the lifespan of the 2pdr against tanks, it likely wont be seen as being needed ITTL due to the faster switch to the 6pdr.
My favourite armoured car of WW2 is the AEC (I, II and III)
He's a chonky boy
OTL it leverages a common turret with the Valentine and used the Matador artillery 4 x 4 Tractor chassis
Here with no Covenantor tank we might see it produced in greater numbers - and maybe in serial production in late 41 using the Valiant turret as a common shared turret?
So an even better AEC than OTL and a true foil to the heavy German 6 and 8 wheeled ACs
He's a chonky boy
OTL it leverages a common turret with the Valentine and used the Matador artillery 4 x 4 Tractor chassis
Here with no Covenantor tank we might see it produced in greater numbers - and maybe in serial production in late 41 using the Valiant turret as a common shared turret?
So an even better AEC than OTL and a true foil to the heavy German 6 and 8 wheeled ACs
I have a soft spot for the AEC as well though it arrives to late to sole the immediate need for a counter to the German reconnaissance forces. How the AEC and British reconnaissance vehicles in general develop ITTL could be quite interesting.
Obviously the Valentine turret is out because it does not exist. The Valiant turret could be an option though it may prove to be too heavy. There are two other options however. The first is the A15 turret, it's three man and can take a 2pdr so will be a good fit, in addition the fact the A15 probably wont be made in serious numbers and is unlikely to go overseas means it will be an option. The other option is the turret off the next vehicle designed by Nuffield. We have seen that Nuffield have said that they will need to design a new tank to take the 6pdr. I doubt serious attention is being paid to this right now though as a lot of Nuffield's attention is going to be on getting the A15 built, also the lack of 6pdr's right now means that even if they had a design there would be a wait anyway.
Here comes the speculation bit.
If we assume the Tetrarch is sent to North Africa to fill a gap then it could well perform well. Yes it is a flawed design but when put up against the German armoured cars it will likely come off reasonably well. So that may be enough to give some life to light tanks. It then becomes a possibility that the next tank Nuffield produces could well be a light tank rather than a cruiser. The Cruiser/Infantry tank split is already going away and it could well be that the next lot of fighting does away with the split pretty much entirely. If that does happen then Nuffield being set to work on a Light Tank that is more capable than the Mk VII so a three man turret and more armour. Yes that leads to a heavier vehicle but it probably ends up in between the M3/M5 and M24, at least if it can take a 6pdr at some point. The turret of that tank could well be used as the basis of the AEC armoured car and other projects as well.
Even if event's don't go like that using the next Nuffield cruiser tank turret for armoured cars does make some sense.
A bit speculative all that but we are getting to that point now I think.
There is the A11 turret, providing the tooling hasn't been destroyed. It would have to be reworked to take another gun as prying Pom Pom's out of the RN's grubby mitts would be no easy task but there are options such as the C.O.W. and later Vickers S auto cannons. Just the job for dealing with nosey enemy armoured cars.
Much as we all love the PomPom tank - its done.
The turret is far too small and the heavy tankette design is well obsolete even by 1939 standards - I would prefer a common turret shared between the Valiant and AEC
My hope would be that Valiant production (both I and Cruiser variants) would become so common that it equips all the Tank and Armour regiments and allow that initially Cavalry regiments would be able to have a squadron of the lesser Crusiers and later the Valiant* to give them some spine (a bit like a modern Armoured Cav Regiment) and once the heavy AEC is available have it issued like the Firefly in recce units (i.e. a 1 in 4 mix).
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