Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oh wow, I guessed Bardia would fall before New Years, but I hadn't considered it might happen before Christmas. My guess is Tobruk is coming fairly soon too.
I wouldn't be surprised if Tobruk falls ITTL before Bardia fell OTL. As it stands Britain just won a battle it thought could last 2-3 days in a single day. There is going to be a lot of unused ammo and supplies left lying around waiting for a job to do. Getting them up the road to Tobruk is going to be a piece of cake compared to bringing supplies all the way from Sollum or the Delta. OTL it took a day from the fall of Bardia for the British to Reach Tobruk, if that holds true TTL then they are already at least overlooking the city. Given the likely much quicker supply buildup and much stronger force available I don't see why it wont be 8-10 days tops before the attack begins.
A big factor is that the Italian's are likely completely caught off guard by the speed of the British advance so the defences of Tobruk are likely to be in a much worse state than OTL if any work needed doing to them. OTL they had the three days of the Battle of Bardia that was almost two weeks later than ITTL plus the buildup to the assault to prepare defences. That is practically a whole month to prepare defences. TTL we are likely to see three weeks less or maybe a bit more, that means much weaker defences when the British reach Tobruk so the may well decide to go early to give the Italian's less time to prepare.
 

Orry

Donor
Monthly Donor
The rate at which the disaters are happening, the increased losses and the larger British force might possibly lead to a faster capitulation
 
The next update will explain the problem, but HMS Aphis has a lot to do with it:
"Accordingly H.M.S. Terror, having replenished after bombarding Maktila, began on the 14th to engage targets systematically in the defended area of Bardia, and continued to do so for the next three days. On one night she was unsuccessfully attacked by a M.T.B., and by torpedo-bombers on another. At dawn on the 17th she supported an impertinent adventure by the Aphis, which entered Bardia harbour and remained inside for an hour while she engaged targets at point blank range. The Terror remarked that the volumes of black smoke rolling out of the harbour entrance indicated that the Aphis 'was having a good time'.1 An attempt to repeat the exploit next day found the Italians on the alert, and the gunboat was pursued along the coast with fire from mobile artillery, her withdrawal being covered by the Terror."
Official History
I guess they will just have to wish for another boatload of these gift boxes .
Some assembly required.
cmp2.jpg
cmp5.jpg
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
So the campaign in North Africa has gotten of to a good start, and is progressing faster than it did IOTL. But we have to remember that it wasn’t planned to be anything other than a raid originally, thus no plans exist to exploit the success that has been achieved. Nor can we forget that events in North Africa are not happening in isolation, but are part of a much bigger campaign. Middle East Command is responsible for a vast area, stretching from Iran in the East, Palestinian in the North, to Kenya in the South, with Greece and Malta tacked on. Egypt faced threats from three directions, to the North is Syria and Lebanon, under Vichy French control, to the south is Italian East Africa, and to the west is Italian North Africa. And thanks to Italian control of the central Mediterranean, the supply line back to Britain is very long, while the British can source much from the Commonwealth/Empire, anything major has to come around the cape from Britain. This is a Britain that right now is under threat of invasion, and is only now beginning to get its second wind re rearmament.

So let us look at the various threats and how they affect the present campaign. Starting with the threat from the north, which is minor, the truth is the Vichy French can do little on their own. They are a wasting asset, and do have a few problems internally of their own. But they are still a threat and along with the ongoing internal conflict in Palestinian between the Jews and Palestinians cause the British to divert significant forces to deal with the problem. While the majority of Jews stopped their resistance to British rule for the duration, and many volunteered to serve in the British forces. There was a small minority, who saw the distraction caused by the conflict as an opportunity, to achieve their own goal of an independent Israel. And there was those among the Palestinian community, such as the Grand Mufti, who allied themselves with the Germans, who they thought would help them to expel the Jews from Palestinian. All of which was an ongoing headache for the British, which they very much could have done without. And I don’t doubt that the various idiots in Iraq will at some time take into their heads to try to stage a revolution. Which will divert forces from the campaign in North Africa and East Africa, to deal with the problem just at the wrong time.

Italian East Africa, is like the Vichy French Syria a wasting asset, without resupply from Italy they don’t in the long run stand a chance. While they do present a minor threat to the British in Kenya, and the only sea route at present to Egypt, its one that can be dealt with. Once the British have organised their forces in both Sudan and northern Kenya, they will as they did swiftly deal with the threat. And while the RN could do without the added distraction of being forced to convoy all shipping past the Horn of Africa and up the Red Sea. There is no way that the Italian Navel forces in the area can prevent the British convoys from getting through. However eliminating the threat has a hidden advantage, America while the threat existed forbid American ships from sailing into a war zone. This is why the British made this campaign a priority, when they could have just contained the Italians and left the to wither on the vine. And in addition it lowers the strain on the RN, freeing warships to do other things.

Now we get to what is the biggest threat to the British in Egypt and control of the Suez Canal. This is the large Italian force in Libya, which is on paper not only much larger and stronger than the British. But this force suffers from a number of disadvantages in comparison to the British, and truth be told was never in any position to supplant British control. First of there isn’t one army, but four, and they don’t necessarily play well together, and things only got worse once the Germans got involved. You have the local colonial forces, made up of local tribes men of dubious loyalty commanded by Italian officers. Very lightly equipped, and not able to stand up to modern British forces, and kept out of the line, and basically used to police the rear areas. Then you have the Italian Colonial Army, a professional long service force, but again lightly equipped and not mixed into the Italian Army that’s going to have to stand up against the British. Then you have the Italian Army, which is made up of conscripts who may or may not have a commitment to giving their all for the glory of Italy. Remember Italy is still a young nation, and there are still regional issues. This force is always bolstered by the inclusion of Black Shirt units, who also have devisions of their own. And all the Italian officers especially the senior have been picked for their apparent political loyalty.

The entire Italian force labourers under a number of problems, which degraded its efficiency. First is the fact that in comparison to the British, an Italian devision is two thirds the size of the British. Three Italian devisions are equivalent to two British, so one on one, the British always have the advantage. Second despite persistent myths, Italian equipment wasn’t crap, after all they have what many consider to be the best SMG of the war, the British at this time don’t have any. However there was in some areas considerable difference, and in comparison to the British, Italian equipment was deficient. Even in OTL Italian armour was no match for British, and in this TL, is seriously inferior. Thirdly the Italian Army in comparison to the British was static, and lacked the ability to react to the highly mobile British forces. So while large, it could and was/is being reduced in detail, bit by bit. Fourthly the Italians weren’t as well trained as the British, that old pain in the arse Percy Hobart, was like his brother-in-law Monty, a superb trainer of men. The WDF, Western Desert Force, was a fantastic base on which to build the army that will fight Operation Compass, and that force is made up with a large number of pre war regulars. All this makes the task of defeating the Italian force, up until they get German reinforcements comparatively easy.

Malta is a constant thorn in the side of the the Italians, and as long as it is kept in play, it diverts significant Italian effort. Plus it ensures that the Italians can not easily resupply their forces in Libya, and have to expend a major effort to protect their convoys. If the British can get to Benghazi before the Germans intervene, and are prepared, a relief convoy can be run from Alexandria under constant air cover, and replacement aircraft if available flown in. Just sending all the Gloster Gladiators in service with the Desert Airforce at present would be of some help. As long as there are more modern fighters available to replace them with DAF, even the American P40 Warhawk is an improvement. Greece is a subject I will look at in a separate post.

RR.
 
Gah. Just realised we're past the date for Operation Menace, and I don't think it was mentioned (unless I missed a post), so I guess it must have gone down as in the original timeline...
Probably. Better tanks don't give you much of an advantage at sea.

Also, if the British are capturing more supplies/vehicles than OTL, and with less fighting, it makes me wonder if they might not be able to get further before stopping, maybe to Ra's Lanuf, Sidra, or even Bin Jawad. Every mile they hold now is a mile less they have to take later.
 
Last edited:
Probably. Better tanks don't give you much of an advantage at sea.

Also, if the British are capturing more supplies/vehicles than OTL, and with less fighting, it makes me wonder if they might not be able to get further before stopping, maybe to Ra's Lanuf, Sidra, or even Bin Jawad.
Hmm. I thought that there was a land-based component to Operation Menace, but I must have been thinking of a different battle vs the Vichy French.
 
Operation Compass, Part 4.

19-25 December 1940. Bardia, Egypt.

Major-General Mackay having been given command of the assault on Bardia and had spent time bringing up and siting all the artillery that O’Connor had attached to him. The Australian Division’s own artillery regiments weren’t at full strength, and some were even still equipped with old Great War era weapons. O’Connor made sure that nearly all the Western Desert Force’s artillery was assigned to Mackay, even the Medium Regiment that General Beresford-Peirse had attempted to take along with his 4th Indian Division. In addition, everything that could be scrounged for an attack on a prepared position was found and distributed between the men. Italian wire cutters, tape for guiding units into position, extra picks and shovels, were all put in the hands of the troops. In planning for the assault, Great War expenditure of artillery shells was planned for, each gun needing 500 shells on hand, and enormous task for the already over-stretched RASC units.

A map of the defences of Bardia had been captured in Sidi Barani, and night patrols had confirmed some of the details, giving it a degree of legitimacy. The size of the garrison was difficult to estimate, but Mackay knew the defensive line, in the form of an arc, was eighteen miles in length round harbour and town of Bardia. There was an almost continuous anti-tank ditch, behind which was a double line of underground posts, linked by rows of barbed wire. The posts were generally about 800 yards apart and each was protected by its own anti-tank trench. The posts were generally armed with one or two 47-mm guns and from two to four machine-guns. Four hundred yards behind the forward line lay a second arc of posts, similar to the first, but lacking an anti-tank trench and sometimes without wire.

From the plan it was noted that posts were numbered consecutively from south to north, odd numbers for the outer posts and even numbers for the inner, and the numbers were marked on the maps and, as the patrols discovered, on the posts themselves. Within the perimeter aerial photography revealed a considerable array of artillery, estimated at 110 guns, and some long stone breastworks. Each flank of the line lay on the inner bank of one of the steep-sided wadis carved into the cliffs which would be impossible to assault. Everywhere else the posts were in flat, almost featureless ground offering little cover to an attacker, and few landmarks.

Various version of plans for assaulting Bardia were investigated and discarded. What became clear in the exercises in the desert between the Australian infantry and the Infantry Tanks of 7th Army Tank Brigade, was that they were the most valuable asset. If the tank ditch and mines could be dealt with, then, as shown in the first phase of Operation Compass, letting the tanks loose inside the Italian camp, with infantry support would be almost impossible to resist. The Tank Brigade became aware that they could really do with having some kind of specialised vehicles. The job of clearing mines was crucial to the tanks, relying on the engineers, who had no protection was something that should be looked at. Having some tanks equipped with bull-dozers to level out the anti-tank ditches, perhaps even tanks carrying bridges, would be useful. Some of these had been experimented with, but since none of these things were actually available, it was clear that the engineers would need to clear mines and create pathways in and out of the anti-tank ditches.

For this the engineers would need the cover of an artillery barrage and probably smoke. None of the Battalions of Infantry Tanks had any close support tanks, and so General Creagh, now returned from hospital and back in charge of 7th Armoured Division was approached to see if he would lend his Close Support tanks to the endeavour. The advantage of being based in the Middle East was that the 3.7-inch mountain howitzer was a common enough gun, and so ammunition for the tank mortars in that calibre included a good HE round as well as the smoke round for which they were designed to fire. Creagh agreed, but noted that the armour of the A9 and A10s was vulnerable to Italian anti-tank guns, so requested they be protected as much as possible. Each of the six Armoured Regiment had six CS tanks so 7th Army Tank Brigade added twelve each A9, A10 and Valiant I* Close Support tanks to their number, spreading them out among the three Battalions.

With a plan now in place one more full rehearsal took place starting on the night of 20/21 December and continuing much of that day. While the lessons were being studied, the men and machines were given a day to recover. During the rehearsals it had been noted that the best assault formation was for each Infantry Company to accompany a Troop of three tanks, in effect, giving each platoon a tank in support. A Squadron of tanks had been assigned to each Battalion and the units had trained together and now would fight together. The attack was timed to begin in the early hours of 23 December, with the hope that the whole attack would be mostly completed on 24 December, Christmas Eve. If they were still fighting on Christmas Day, it would be because the Italians were putting up a better fight than they had done so far.


The opening salvo of the assault on Bardia was courtesy of the Royal Navy. The inshore squadron comprising of HMS Barham and Terror, with other gunboats, had been reinforced by HMS Warspite, Valiant, Illustrious, Gloucester, York, and eleven destroyers, on their way back to Alexandria from Malta. The majority of the shells were concentrated on the northern section of Bardia’s defences. The RAF, who’d been bombing the area constantly for over a week had been concentrating on the southern section, but the 15-inch guns of three battleships and a monitor with the Cruisers and destroyers adding their own weight of fire, concentrated the minds of the Italians. Swordfish from HMS Illustrious also bombed targets of opportunity.

When the artillery of the Western Desert Force added their voice to that of the Royal Navy’s, while it lacked in heavy shells, it was still more than enough for the Italian defenders to cling to the bottom of their dug-outs. The 2/1st Battalion, 16th Australian Brigade lead the attack, focussing on the area between posts 45 and 47. While some troops rolled up the first line of odd numbered posts, others went to suppress the even numbered, second line of posts. Meanwhile the attached engineers worked to clear the wire with bangalore torpedoes, clear safe passages through the minefields, and then, with the help of Pioneers to create ramps for the tanks to cross the main anti-tank ditch.

With smoke shells from the artillery and Close Support tanks adding to the confusion, much of this work was done before the Italians could respond. The engineers had broken down the sides of the ditch on each side of Post 47 and made six crossings for the tanks and trucks at 60-to-100-yard intervals. They had also discovered and marked the mines between the crossings and the wire. Within five minutes the first two crossings were ready, and at 06.35hrs in the half-light, B Squadron 40th Battalion RTR, 14 Valiant Infantry Tanks and two Close Support Valiant I*, who went to the aid of the 2/1st Battalion, now pushing north, continuing to roll up the flank of the Italian defenders, and prepared to throw up a flank against any Italian counter-attack.

A Squadron and 2/2nd Battalion moved through the gap in the wire and ditch at the heels of B Squadron and began to roll up the defensive posts to the south-east, widening the gap further and soon were on the line of the Bardia-Capuzzo road.

By the time 2/3rd Battalion arrived, with the tanks of C Squadron, the engineers and pioneers had extended the crossing points allowing the second wave to move forward more quickly. These moved down the incline in the direction of Bardia itself, advancing two miles in the company of the 6th Division’s cavalry squadron in Bren carriers. An Italian counter-attack by six Italian medium tanks was stopped in its tracks as the 2-pdrs on the Valiant tanks pierced them easily, with no reply.

With 16th Australian Brigade and 40th Bn RTR now fully engaged, some 1800 men and almost seventy tanks, they found Italian resistance to be patchy. Some posts and sangers of Italian gunners put up a stiff resistance and would only be overcome by heavy fire and at the point of the bayonet. Other positions showed white flags with barely a shot being fired in their direction. By 08.30hrs the 16th Australian Infantry Brigade had occupied practically all its objectives, and had captured about 8,000 prisoners for very few losses.

The second phase got underway as planned at 11:30hrs. 17th Australian Infantry Brigade, with the support of 44th Bn RTR, moved forward, and came under accurate artillery fire. The 2/5th Battalion lost its commanding officer, but with the tanks of A Squadron and twelve A10 Close Support tanks attached, the Battalion rallied, and began to find some of the same success as their comrades had done in the early morning. By 13:00hrs, now with 2/6th Battalion supporting, they had reached the ‘switch’ line, where Italian resistance seemed more coordinated.

Having had some time to regroup, 16th Australian Brigade and 40th Bn RTR got underway again. The 2/2nd Battalion made more progress straight towards Bardia, while the 2/3rd Battalion moved towards the Bardia-Tobruk road. Thousands of prisoners once more were taken, and so surprised was the enemy by the speed of the assault that the Australians were able to capture the water supply plant and the harbour facilities intact. By late-afternoon the only Italians still holding out were those in the extreme north and south. In the north, after being subjected to such a lengthy bombardment from the 15-inch guns of the battleships, when the infantry of the 7th Support Group made a breech in the wire, they found the Italians surrendering wholesale. In the south, the 2/7th Battalion, who were still fresh, with C Squadron and the A10 Close Support tanks firing almost at point-blank range, the 17th Australian Brigade were finally able to penetrate the artillery area, and as their supporting fire died off, the Italian infantry gave up.

In a single day
6th Australian Division had won a most comprehensive victory. The Italians lost over 40,000 officers and men, killed and captured; more than 400 guns; 13 medium and 117 light tanks—many of them serviceable; several hundred motor vehicles, and many documents of immediate value. The Corps Commander, General Bergonzoli, somehow had managed to escape.

The Australians had suffered 256 casualties, killed and injured. The 'I' tanks had been invaluable, though they were by no means invulnerable. Some were stopped by mines, and others had their turrets jammed by direct hits from shells. Of 140 tanks which had taken part in the assault ten were out of action but were repairable easily. Sixteen would need to be repaired at a workshop, including four which had mechanical failures. Almost every Valiant tank had some scarring from shells that failed to penetrate, some had external stowage bins shot away. Six tank commanders were killed because there was no way to communicate with the infantry except by sticking their heads out of the turret. One A10 Close Support tank was penetrated by a 47mm anti-tank gun and destroyed; its crew killed.

Christmas Eve was spent clearing up the battlefield, burying the dead, organising the prisoners and generally getting sorted out. The medical units from both armies worked together to care for the wounded. For all the advantages of the captured material, having 40000 extra mouths to feed and water, as at Sidi Barrani put an enormous strain on the Australians and their supply chain. An urgent request was sent to the Royal Navy asking that they take on board as many of the Italian prisoners as possible. Since the British ships were returning to Alexandria, taking thousands of POWs by sea would free up a great deal of land based resources. The Navy responded and took off five thousand prisoners from Sidi Barrani over the next twenty-four hours, as well as many of the seriously injured Australians and Italians who were carried back to hospitals in the Delta.


At midnight, with General Mackay’s approval, Padres offered Watchnight Services or Midnight Mass. While some attended, many of the men of 6th Australian Division simply slept, exhausted and relieved.
View attachment 629352

NB Text in italic differs from OTL. The map is OTL, but the attack follows the same plan. The main differences are able to happen because, the 6th Australian Division was prepared earlier to take over from the Indian 4th Division. The preparations for Compass are greater than the planned OTL five day raid. The presence of more tanks. When the battle of Bardia took place 7th RTR provided less than 30 tanks. Here there are three times that number, so I am guessing that increases the chance of success by a factor of three, meaning the assault takes one day instead of three. I am aware that there's a lot of conjecture and hand-wavium here present, but I hope it isn't too unbelievable.
Great write up

OTL the main action was on the 3rd and many positions were assaulted without tank support (successfully and unsuccessfully) - indeed the only Italian tank attack was perhaps more successful than it should have been as when the asked the provide tank support by the Australian units under attack the British Tankers who had been told that no Italian tanks were in the perimeter dismissed the report.

The fighting on most of the 4th and 5th, and not meaning to be dismissive at all as much of it was savage, was mopping up - the main fight was the one on the 3rd.

So significantly more tanks means that many of the positions that caused delays due to lack of AFV support and the Italian armoured counter attack are more likely to be dealt with far earlier and more effectively as tanks are more likely to be in direct support of the Australian unit engaged allowing for positions to be captured faster and with less loss etc.

So it is not inconceivable that the Break in, 'Triangle' and then Bardia (originally each a dedicated infantry Brigade attack) itself fall by the first day with subsequent attacks launched on the remaining 2 sectors, OTL day 3, here able to be conducted on the afternoon of Day 1 and OTL they usually resulted in the surrender of a given 'post' with the arrival of a tank or 4 and in many cases at the point of a bayonet (and usually involving a citation that starts "Picking up a Bren gun.....") by infantry alone.

Again with far more tanks available.....and better tanks at that providing about a company of tanks for each Battalion (rather than an understrength battalion for the entire assault) could easily see a far more rapid series of assaults developing.

There might have been some holdouts over night into day 2 - such as Post 11 - a well led unit by all accounts - and the last to be captured OTL and I am sure that isolated areas of the Battlefield might have seen small knots of Italian soldiers over looked and themselves completely in the dark holding onto into day 2 ITTL

But the main fight could easily be over on day 1 as far as the Battle and any historical account is concerned ITTL.
 
Hi . As of now this splendid TL is in second place in Turtledove poll . The race is currently very close indeed. Can anyone who hasn't yet voted please do so . Thanks. Regards and Best Wishes.
 
One thing that slid past unnoticed is that the Vickers Close Support Tanks are able to use the same ammunition as the 3.7" Mountain Howitzer effectively turning them into assault guns. This is a significant improvement on the OTL 3.7" close support tanks which used their own dedicated ammunition (mostly smoke).
 
One thing that slid past unnoticed is that the Vickers Close Support Tanks are able to use the same ammunition as the 3.7" Mountain Howitzer effectively turning them into assault guns. This is a significant improvement on the OTL 3.7" close support tanks which used their own dedicated ammunition (mostly smoke).
i could never comprehend why they would go to the expense of a tank just to blow smoke.
 
Another fantastic update, and in my mind an entirely believable series of events.
I'm glad.
A lot happened there, where do I begin.
Well firstly the whole thing is over 12 days ahead of where we were OTL. That alone is a big change and really speeds things up. Also being over in only one day instead of three is a big boost to the British. That is two less days of ammo expenditure, two less days of tanks using fuel at combat levels, two less days of troops needing to be supplied under combat conditions. That all adds up and reduces the comparative logistical burden over OTL.
To be fair, the fighting on day two and mopping up on day three OTL probably didn't involve quite as much as day one. Fewer artillery shells being fires is one of the bonuses.
The ability to start dropping supplies, even a limited amount that much closer to the front reduces the logistical burden, as does the capture of the Water. Even if the water is only used to supply the garrison and workers at Bardia it is one less place, and a lot fewer mouths that need a water supply.
There's the small matter of almost 100000 extra mouths to feed. That was one of O'Connor's big problems. He suddenly had a huge drain on his resources meaning that what he'd hoped he gain in extra supplies get eaten up by his POWs.
Logistics, Logistics, Logistics. The motor Vehicles are the most important capture here. Well the Trucks among them are. The intelligence is nice but may well soon be out of date as the Italians make some "Strategic retreats"
Yes, but with the same problems of giving them to men unfamiliar with them and don't know how to service them. They may be a short term fix.
Having 114 tanks serviceable (if my math/reading is correct) and ready to go into action is a big boost to the WDF at this stage this close to the next major objective, Tobruk. The Valiant's being basically untouched except for some scarring will really get tongues wagging about those tanks. All the Crews will want to be in them and all the Officers will want them in their forces, having a tank the enemy can't stop is a big advantage to an attack. It is also worth pointing out Tobruk is 5-6 hours away from Bardia at 15mph, a speed the tanks can all make easily with little fear of Breakdown or excessive ware.
It does make reading what 7th Bn RTR did with their Matildas in OTL pretty interesting reading. Remember these were the same chaps at Arras.
This is important, it reduces a lot of the strain the WDF would have faced dealing with all those prisoners and wounded while trying to continue the advance. It may actually be a better idea to keep all the Prisoners around Bardia and just ship them out rather than trying to march them back. Yes loading some into returning trucks may be worth it but if the Navy can organise shipping them all out fairly quickly it unclogs the roads quite a bit and allows supplies forward easier.
OTL the Navy did help out, but here the cry of help is earlier and louder. As I said, dealing with the POWs was a major headache.
Go Australia. I doubt this will be the last ITTL.
I am feeling a little sorry for 19th Brigade who still haven't arrived with the rest of the Division yet.
All in all a great update, really shows the progress Britain and the Commonwealth has been able to make with only a few small changes.
Cheers.
Time to round up any surviving X lighters that are kicking about the Eastern Mediterranean.
I had visions of Star Wars X fighters for a moment until I read it again.
I wouldn't be surprised if Tobruk falls ITTL before Bardia fell OTL. As it stands Britain just won a battle it thought could last 2-3 days in a single day. There is going to be a lot of unused ammo and supplies left lying around waiting for a job to do. Getting them up the road to Tobruk is going to be a piece of cake compared to bringing supplies all the way from Sollum or the Delta. OTL it took a day from the fall of Bardia for the British to Reach Tobruk, if that holds true TTL then they are already at least overlooking the city. Given the likely much quicker supply buildup and much stronger force available I don't see why it wont be 8-10 days tops before the attack begins.
A big factor is that the Italian's are likely completely caught off guard by the speed of the British advance so the defences of Tobruk are likely to be in a much worse state than OTL if any work needed doing to them. OTL they had the three days of the Battle of Bardia that was almost two weeks later than ITTL plus the buildup to the assault to prepare defences. That is practically a whole month to prepare defences. TTL we are likely to see three weeks less or maybe a bit more, that means much weaker defences when the British reach Tobruk so the may well decide to go early to give the Italian's less time to prepare.
We'll see. The defences in Tobruk were well developed by this time. I don't see much extra work being done on them. Bardia suffered from having relied on the outer defences, with less inside to slow or guide an opposing force into kill zones or having a counter-attack force. I believe Tobruk may have a better defence in depth.
The rate at which the disaters are happening, the increased losses and the larger British force might possibly lead to a faster capitulation
That would be fun!
Hmm. I thought that there was a land-based component to Operation Menace, but I must have been thinking of a different battle vs the Vichy French.
Menace took place as OTL, nothing here will have changed that.
Great write up
I thank you.
OTL the main action was on the 3rd and many positions were assaulted without tank support (successfully and unsuccessfully) - indeed the only Italian tank attack was perhaps more successful than it should have been as when the asked the provide tank support by the Australian units under attack the British Tankers who had been told that no Italian tanks were in the perimeter dismissed the report. The fighting on most of the 4th and 5th, and not meaning to be dismissive at all as much of it was savage, was mopping up - the main fight was the one on the 3rd.
The 7th RTR complained afterwards that some of their tanks were misused during the assault, carrying out the wounded for example. Here the Australians have had more time to train with them, and hopefully sort out some of the inherent problems of tank/infantry cooperation.
So significantly more tanks means that many of the positions that caused delays due to lack of AFV support and the Italian armoured counter attack are more likely to be dealt with far earlier and more effectively as tanks are more likely to be in direct support of the Australian unit engaged allowing for positions to be captured faster and with less loss etc.
So it is not inconceivable that the Break in, 'Triangle' and then Bardia (originally each a dedicated infantry Brigade attack) itself fall by the first day with subsequent attacks launched on the remaining 2 sectors, OTL day 3, here able to be conducted on the afternoon of Day 1 and OTL they usually resulted in the surrender of a given 'post' with the arrival of a tank or 4 and in many cases at the point of a bayonet (and usually involving a citation that starts "Picking up a Bren gun.....") by infantry alone.
My reading of it too. If each platoon has 'their own' tank in support, and the Battalion had the whole squadron on call, then I thought some of the problems OTL would be mitigated.
There might have been some holdouts over night into day 2 - such as Post 11 - a well led unit by all accounts - and the last to be captured OTL and I am sure that isolated areas of the Battlefield might have seen small knots of Italian soldiers over looked and themselves completely in the dark holding onto into day 2 ITTL
But the main fight could easily be over on day 1 as far as the Battle and any historical account is concerned ITTL.
Yes I think there would have been a lot of mopping up on day 2. One of the histories comments that numbers of prisoners being counted was a problem, because one lot would be captured by the tip of the spear, then making their way back towards the main line of advance would be 'captured again.' Anyway, I'm glad it didn't sound too outlandish.

Again everyone, thanks for your interest and support/
Allan
 

marathag

Banned
i could never comprehend why they would go to the expense of a tank just to blow smoke.
The US improved the Brit WWI Stokes mortar to the M1 4.2" rifled mortar,that only had Gas and WP ammo, until the M2 of 1943 that got High Explosive rounds, first used in Sicily.
 
like you said while trucks are nice keep in mind this is the EARLY 1940's a lot of these vehicle are forign not just in make but control layout and in maintinance some of them might only last a week of use if not properly maintained


 

marathag

Banned
OTOH, the Ford trucks in German or French service was not that different from the US or UK version, same for the GM family, the Opel Blitz used a motor based off of a Buick.
 
It's really a moot point over the long term about using "borrowed" vehicles seeing as the supply of parts will soon dry up and the flood of trucks from Canada is under way.If you average Canadian production over the whole war you get 10,000 trucks a month and 38% of that went to the British forces leading to 80% of trucks in North Africa being from Canada.
 
It's really a moot point over the long term about using "borrowed" vehicles seeing as the supply of parts will soon dry up and the flood of trucks from Canada is under way.If you average Canadian production over the whole war you get 10,000 trucks a month and 38% of that went to the British forces leading to 80% of trucks in North Africa being from Canada.
They should have built a RR north from Nigeria... Which would have taken way too long, sigh.
Maybe if Vichy North Africa looks like it might be around until Overlord (or equivalent) they might try that.
Ah. Niger's part of Vichy, that's not good.
So the hypothetical RR goes pretty much east through Chad to Khartoum, probably.... Hmmm...
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top