Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
- Status
marathag
Banned
Track gauge the same, but loading gauge was different.
So yeah, don't send the 84' flat cars, but 36' pressed steel boxcars with euro bumpers, couplers and brake gear, that's doable.
US made smaller 2-6-0 steamers as well as 4-8-8-4 monster Big Boys.
18 September 1940. Marsa Matruh, Egypt.
allanpcameron
Donor
18 September 1940. Marsa Matruh, Egypt.
General O’Connor and his staff had the reports form the 11th Hussars and the RAF, which confirmed that the Italians were digging in at Sidi Barrani, and at various points back along their route of advance. On one level it was quite unbelievable. The Italians had massive army, far outnumbering the British, and yet they not making the most of it.
O’Connor’s command, the Western Desert Force, which consisted of the 7th Armoured Division and 4th Indian Division, had forward elements which had been screening the Italian advance and falling back gradually. The most surprising thing was that the feared Italian movement across the desert to the south hadn’t materialised. The nearest they’d come was on 16 September when a force of about fifty Italian tanks and lorried infantry were seen moving around the left flank of the Alam el Dab position forcing the rear-guard to be withdrawn to the east of Sidi Barrani to avoid being cut off. The Italian force was successfully engaged by two Batteries of the Royal Horse Artillery and displayed no further aggressive intentions.
It had to be supposed that in occupying Sidi Barrani and Sofafi the Italians had reached their immediate objectives. The task of observing the front was once again in the capable hands of the 11th Hussars in their armoured cars and light tanks. The forward elements of Western Desert force were withdrawn to rest, while O’Connor ordered the 7th Armoured Division to take up dispositions in readiness to deal with a further advance on Matruh.
With dispositions and attitude of the Italian forces consistent with a policy of temporary consolidation, rather than with any intention of maintaining their momentum, O’Connor had to consider how to counter them. The Royal Air Force would do their best to interfere with the Italians by making day and night attacks on camps and transport columns, and the Royal Navy would occasionally bombard the Italians. The Long Range Patrol Unit were also out on their first patrols. Captain Mitford’s W Patrol, and T Patrol, commanded by Captain Clayton, would add to the information available to O’Connor’s command.
As part of their withdrawal, the British had destroyed much of the rough road between the frontier and Sidi Barrani and the water at there had been rendered undrinkable. This meant for the Italians that their immediate priorities were the construction of a motorable road and of a water pipeline forward from the frontier. O’Connor had been informed that a convoy had sailed from Liverpool the previous week, and should arrive in Egypt at the beginning of October. Allowing the best part of two months for the men and vehicles to be trained and adapted for use in the desert, it would be December before he had the reinforcements he needed to knock the Italians back. This gave him plenty of time to make his plans, and allow most of the tanks in the 7th Armoured Division to get as much servicing as they could with the available stocks of spare parts. Once the attack got underway, it would be a while before they’d be able to get another chance.
NB text in italic differs from OTL
General O’Connor and his staff had the reports form the 11th Hussars and the RAF, which confirmed that the Italians were digging in at Sidi Barrani, and at various points back along their route of advance. On one level it was quite unbelievable. The Italians had massive army, far outnumbering the British, and yet they not making the most of it.
O’Connor’s command, the Western Desert Force, which consisted of the 7th Armoured Division and 4th Indian Division, had forward elements which had been screening the Italian advance and falling back gradually. The most surprising thing was that the feared Italian movement across the desert to the south hadn’t materialised. The nearest they’d come was on 16 September when a force of about fifty Italian tanks and lorried infantry were seen moving around the left flank of the Alam el Dab position forcing the rear-guard to be withdrawn to the east of Sidi Barrani to avoid being cut off. The Italian force was successfully engaged by two Batteries of the Royal Horse Artillery and displayed no further aggressive intentions.
It had to be supposed that in occupying Sidi Barrani and Sofafi the Italians had reached their immediate objectives. The task of observing the front was once again in the capable hands of the 11th Hussars in their armoured cars and light tanks. The forward elements of Western Desert force were withdrawn to rest, while O’Connor ordered the 7th Armoured Division to take up dispositions in readiness to deal with a further advance on Matruh.
With dispositions and attitude of the Italian forces consistent with a policy of temporary consolidation, rather than with any intention of maintaining their momentum, O’Connor had to consider how to counter them. The Royal Air Force would do their best to interfere with the Italians by making day and night attacks on camps and transport columns, and the Royal Navy would occasionally bombard the Italians. The Long Range Patrol Unit were also out on their first patrols. Captain Mitford’s W Patrol, and T Patrol, commanded by Captain Clayton, would add to the information available to O’Connor’s command.
As part of their withdrawal, the British had destroyed much of the rough road between the frontier and Sidi Barrani and the water at there had been rendered undrinkable. This meant for the Italians that their immediate priorities were the construction of a motorable road and of a water pipeline forward from the frontier. O’Connor had been informed that a convoy had sailed from Liverpool the previous week, and should arrive in Egypt at the beginning of October. Allowing the best part of two months for the men and vehicles to be trained and adapted for use in the desert, it would be December before he had the reinforcements he needed to knock the Italians back. This gave him plenty of time to make his plans, and allow most of the tanks in the 7th Armoured Division to get as much servicing as they could with the available stocks of spare parts. Once the attack got underway, it would be a while before they’d be able to get another chance.
NB text in italic differs from OTL
And so it starts. I honestly can't see the British getting much further than OTL on the initial run, but with better, more reliable tanks, and at least some switch-over to jerry-cans from flimsies, they should arrive with enough firepower to resist the sort of scratch attack the Germans used OTL. Of course, if it's someone other than Rommel who's sent, they may prefer a more defensive strategy, perhaps holing up in Sirte, or even Misrata, and waiting for the British to come to them.
Last edited:
allanpcameron
Donor
That was all as OTL, there'll probably be more total italics as time goes on, but somethings are just as they were.
Allan
Last edited:
And at some point, depending on how things go there'll be no point to italics, because there's going to be nothing happening that is relevant to OTL.
25 Pdr rounds did not use a bagged charge. They used a semi-fixed round which allowed the amount of charge to be varied and the distance to the target and the trajectory to be changed. However a cartridge case was always inserted to seal the breech. Downunder, in the tank that must not be named, a fixed 25 Pdr round was developed when it was mounted in the ******** Mk.III version of the tank. I am sure the UK was quite capable of producing similar round if there was a need.
Australia used three railway gauges - 3 foot 6 inch, 4 foot 8 inch and 5 feet3 inch. Those corresponded to British Narrow gauge, standard gauge and Irish broad gauge. It was a note of contention between the states and was noted by Macarthur as causing difficulty moving stores between the various states and even within the states.
I'm aware of that. And having standard gauge lines means they'll have facilities to produce standard gauge trains and rolling stock.
Last edited:
Not quite. Each state started with either Standard Gauge or Broad Gauge. Then, because of economics they changes to narrow gauge. Then when economics improved and because of politics they changed back to Standard Gauge. In South Australia for example, they had a Broad Gauge line to Melbourne in Victoria. A Standard Gauge line to Perth (the Trans-continental) line and a Narrow Gauge to Alice Springs. There were also numerous Narrow and Standard Gauge lines to other localities like Broken Hill and various localities on Eyre Peninsular which were isolated from the network. In NSW they had Standard Gauge and Narrow Gauge lines. In Victoria Broad Guage and Standard Gauge. In Queensland they had Standard and Narrow Gauges. In Western Australia they had Standard and Narrow Gauge lines. The state and Commonwealth Australian Railways became expert at change of gauge changes at borders. They unloaded and reloaded trains in record times. I remember as a child travelling from Adelaide to Perth on the trans-continental line in the early 1970s. We started on Broad Gauge, changed to Standard Gauge, then changed to Narrow Gauge and finally, back to Standard Gauge.
I'm sorry, are you saying they somehow can't produce standard gauge engines and rolling-stock?
Last edited:
So we're nearly there in North Africa, this should be fun.
Quite a lot could change from OTL given the changes so far.
Firstly the British have a much stronger armoured force than OTL with a slightly improved doctrine. This is, apart from a couple of times, not actually that important. It will be hard for the British to win some of the battles they fought more thoroughly than they did. There were some times British forces in Mk VI lights ran into more capable Italian tanks so having either of the Valiant's or even an A9 in that scenario instead turns the table's and prevents some of the few Italian successes. There will be other advantages though, the Valiant's will be harder to knock out or damage over the OTL tank. That reduces stresses on the maintenance crews as well as the supply of spares needed etc.
Secondly the Valiant should be more reliable than the OTL tanks. The tracks at least won't wear as fast so will need replacing less frequently. The cumulative effect of that and other reliability improvements will be quite large. Firstly the lower number of Breakdowns means that the British will have more tanks available at any given time. Secondly the fact fewer spare parts etc will be needed means that the logistics will be eased quite a bit. This is even more true as the Valiant sisters will share quite a few parts for things like running gear etc. All that improved logistics will be able to carry more fuel and ammo etc allowing the force to move further and/or faster.
Thirdly, the Valiant Infantry despite using a different fuel will be far more fuel efficient. That allows again for slightly improved logistics as you can carry less fuel per mile traveled. Now there is a trade off in that the Valiant Cruiser may use more fuel per mile than tanks like the A9, A10, A12 and Mk VI. There is room to take up the slack if needed. The thing is that may not be entirely true. The more powerful engine in the Valiant Cruiser may mean it can actually be as or more fuel efficient than the OTL tanks. That is a part of my next point.
Fourth, speed. The Armoured force will be abe t travel faster if needed. With no Matilda II slowly crawling across the desert the British will be able to move the whole force faster when required. In situations when the force is slowed down by other issues the Valiant's will be taxing themselves far less than the OTL tanks they are replacing. That means that one they will need less fuel making them more efficient and possibly making the Valiant Cruiser as fuel efficient as the lighter tanks. Two they will be taxing both their engines and running gear far less meaning improved reliability. They again add up to a better logistics situation. Another potential benefit of speed is it may mean the Italian's are far less organised due to the faster British advance leading to a faster collapse and some of the battles fought OTL not happening. Again all to the good for Britain.
So what does this all mean.
Well, there are a few potential scenarios these changes could lead too.
1, The whole thing could go pretty much as OTL, very unlikely however. The most likely way this happens is O'connor halts but for a long time and Wavell pulls his troops for Greece.
2, Britain advances to much the same place as OTL but gets there sooner. Because of a better supply situation and less worn out tanks O'connor continues before Wavell strips his force for Greece.
3, Britain advances and keeps going past where they stopped OTL. How far they get though depends.
How far can Britain get.
Sirte, thats how far, at least before a major rest and resupply. Will they get that far, depends, but by the time the British have got that far, or close even, they will need to stop.
What happens next.
The Germans that's what and what they do depends on who is commanding them. Either way the tanks the German will bring won't stand up to the Valiant's much better than the Italian tanks.
Outcomes.
1, Done by mid 41. The British either blunt the German attack or if the Germans don't attack then the British do. It could be British in Tripoli by May - July. Possible outcome this one.
2, Done by late 41. See above but more back and forth. Again as possible as the one above.
3, All over some time in early to mid 42. To be honest this is the least likely of the outcomes.
Wildcard the French get involved. Thing is why do they get involved, is it because they were pressured to by the Germans or because the Germans got desperate and annoy the French into getting involved. Then you have the question of how are the French involved, is it just letting the Axis use Tunisia or are they actively fighting. Who are they actually fighting (hint Germans).
Other wildcard, Barbarossa. If the British manage to look like they are about to win just as or after Barbarossa has started the Germans might decide they don't want the distraction of North Africa.
Quite a lot could change from OTL given the changes so far.
Firstly the British have a much stronger armoured force than OTL with a slightly improved doctrine. This is, apart from a couple of times, not actually that important. It will be hard for the British to win some of the battles they fought more thoroughly than they did. There were some times British forces in Mk VI lights ran into more capable Italian tanks so having either of the Valiant's or even an A9 in that scenario instead turns the table's and prevents some of the few Italian successes. There will be other advantages though, the Valiant's will be harder to knock out or damage over the OTL tank. That reduces stresses on the maintenance crews as well as the supply of spares needed etc.
Secondly the Valiant should be more reliable than the OTL tanks. The tracks at least won't wear as fast so will need replacing less frequently. The cumulative effect of that and other reliability improvements will be quite large. Firstly the lower number of Breakdowns means that the British will have more tanks available at any given time. Secondly the fact fewer spare parts etc will be needed means that the logistics will be eased quite a bit. This is even more true as the Valiant sisters will share quite a few parts for things like running gear etc. All that improved logistics will be able to carry more fuel and ammo etc allowing the force to move further and/or faster.
Thirdly, the Valiant Infantry despite using a different fuel will be far more fuel efficient. That allows again for slightly improved logistics as you can carry less fuel per mile traveled. Now there is a trade off in that the Valiant Cruiser may use more fuel per mile than tanks like the A9, A10, A12 and Mk VI. There is room to take up the slack if needed. The thing is that may not be entirely true. The more powerful engine in the Valiant Cruiser may mean it can actually be as or more fuel efficient than the OTL tanks. That is a part of my next point.
Fourth, speed. The Armoured force will be abe t travel faster if needed. With no Matilda II slowly crawling across the desert the British will be able to move the whole force faster when required. In situations when the force is slowed down by other issues the Valiant's will be taxing themselves far less than the OTL tanks they are replacing. That means that one they will need less fuel making them more efficient and possibly making the Valiant Cruiser as fuel efficient as the lighter tanks. Two they will be taxing both their engines and running gear far less meaning improved reliability. They again add up to a better logistics situation. Another potential benefit of speed is it may mean the Italian's are far less organised due to the faster British advance leading to a faster collapse and some of the battles fought OTL not happening. Again all to the good for Britain.
So what does this all mean.
Well, there are a few potential scenarios these changes could lead too.
1, The whole thing could go pretty much as OTL, very unlikely however. The most likely way this happens is O'connor halts but for a long time and Wavell pulls his troops for Greece.
2, Britain advances to much the same place as OTL but gets there sooner. Because of a better supply situation and less worn out tanks O'connor continues before Wavell strips his force for Greece.
3, Britain advances and keeps going past where they stopped OTL. How far they get though depends.
How far can Britain get.
Sirte, thats how far, at least before a major rest and resupply. Will they get that far, depends, but by the time the British have got that far, or close even, they will need to stop.
What happens next.
The Germans that's what and what they do depends on who is commanding them. Either way the tanks the German will bring won't stand up to the Valiant's much better than the Italian tanks.
Outcomes.
1, Done by mid 41. The British either blunt the German attack or if the Germans don't attack then the British do. It could be British in Tripoli by May - July. Possible outcome this one.
2, Done by late 41. See above but more back and forth. Again as possible as the one above.
3, All over some time in early to mid 42. To be honest this is the least likely of the outcomes.
Wildcard the French get involved. Thing is why do they get involved, is it because they were pressured to by the Germans or because the Germans got desperate and annoy the French into getting involved. Then you have the question of how are the French involved, is it just letting the Axis use Tunisia or are they actively fighting. Who are they actually fighting (hint Germans).
Other wildcard, Barbarossa. If the British manage to look like they are about to win just as or after Barbarossa has started the Germans might decide they don't want the distraction of North Africa.
It also depends on what percentage of fuel is carried in flimsies, and what percentage in jerry-cans. The more of the latter, the fewer trucks will be needed, since jerry-cans don't leak (or if they do, do very little in comparison), thus meaning those trucks can carry other things. Jerry cans can also more easily be strapped to the side of vehicles, thus further reducing the load on the supply train.
Last edited:
Looking at it, Having Valiants on hand will certainly speed up the early campaign. I'd figure Bardia comes in mid-late December, rather than early January, with Tobruk following a lot sooner than OTL too. The delaying action the Italians fought at Mechili is likely not to have much effect with Valiants in play, and the losses at Beda Fomm will be lower too, assuming they have some Valiants around. Could they make it as far as Sirte? Possibly, but I doubt it. They might make it to Sidr or Bin Jawad though.
Things like Mechili might not happen if the British can advance fast enough.
True.
It must be noted though, that in WW2, Sirte was no more important than any other small coastal village on the Gulf of Sidra. Virtually everything there now dates to the Gaddafi era. Ironically, events playing out in the near future of the TL might butterfly Gaddafi's existence.
Last edited:
- Status