allanpcameron
Donor
While we're on it, these are also @Claymore's visualisations for the Valiant Mk II (with 6-pdr) and Victor.
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
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Yeah, but it really depends on if they can get there before they're overwhelmed by the Allies. Probably they can, but it's not certain.
That had occured to me as well.
There's also the Case Anton possibility, where Germany just straight up takes Over Vichy France.
That didn't happen OTL, and the Germans were in North Africa from February of '41.
Which would actually be a bonus for Britain as it would instantly give Britain the entire French Empire as allies including any of the navy that can bolt out of France.
The Victor looks like what a tank should look like for mid to late war. Something that can kill Panthers and even Tigers without being too dangerously vulnerable to them.
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12 September 1940. York, England.
allanpcameron
Donor
12 September 1940. York, England.
Cooke, Troughton and Simms, instrument makers, were one of the companies making the No 3o tank sighting telescope. Used by all British tanks equipped with the 2-pdr gun it had a magnification of 1.9x and a field of view of 21°. The examination of the German gun sights from the captured Panzers by the experts had revealed that there were a couple of things they particularly liked about them.
The Turmzielfernrohr TZF 4 and 5 b both had a better magnification at 2.5x and a wider field of view of 25°. When the Royal Tank Regiment gunners had test fired the German guns, they’d universally liked the clearer view, and specifically they preferred the German graticule over the British one. By using a crosshair on the British telescope, at long distances, the lines could obscure a target. The German system however used a serious of triangles, which, the British gunners once they got used to it, found gave better results.
Some criticism of the No 30 tank sighting telescope had been noted by 1st Armoured Division at the fighting at the Somme. On wet days the sights misted up was the most common complaint. Putting together all this information Cooke, Troughton and Simms had been asked to work on the new sight needed for the new 6-pdr gun, working alongside the co-axial 7.92mm Besa machine-gun.
NB: Text in italic differs from OTL. Obviously without capturing the Panzers this wouldn't happen. Actually not sure if they would have changed, the two graticules or reticles are pictured (British is actually NO 33 rather than 30 but the only one I could find an image of), but certainly have read criticism of the British telescope. Not sure whether even the capacity of improve the sighting telescope is actually possible, but it is worth looking at.
Cooke, Troughton and Simms, instrument makers, were one of the companies making the No 3o tank sighting telescope. Used by all British tanks equipped with the 2-pdr gun it had a magnification of 1.9x and a field of view of 21°. The examination of the German gun sights from the captured Panzers by the experts had revealed that there were a couple of things they particularly liked about them.
The Turmzielfernrohr TZF 4 and 5 b both had a better magnification at 2.5x and a wider field of view of 25°. When the Royal Tank Regiment gunners had test fired the German guns, they’d universally liked the clearer view, and specifically they preferred the German graticule over the British one. By using a crosshair on the British telescope, at long distances, the lines could obscure a target. The German system however used a serious of triangles, which, the British gunners once they got used to it, found gave better results.
Some criticism of the No 30 tank sighting telescope had been noted by 1st Armoured Division at the fighting at the Somme. On wet days the sights misted up was the most common complaint. Putting together all this information Cooke, Troughton and Simms had been asked to work on the new sight needed for the new 6-pdr gun, working alongside the co-axial 7.92mm Besa machine-gun.
NB: Text in italic differs from OTL. Obviously without capturing the Panzers this wouldn't happen. Actually not sure if they would have changed, the two graticules or reticles are pictured (British is actually NO 33 rather than 30 but the only one I could find an image of), but certainly have read criticism of the British telescope. Not sure whether even the capacity of improve the sighting telescope is actually possible, but it is worth looking at.
Some more thoughts about the longer-term impacts of the Carden timeline on British war material production.
OTL the British were content with reducing their own tank production and relying more extensively on the US one to focus on other things, as there was a feeling that British tanks didn't perform as well as the Sherman (back when it was at best Churchill and Cromwell). Here we might see the exact opposite with the Victor being superior in many respects to the Sherman (I doubt it will change enough compared to OTL to change that) and reliable and decent build quality. This may convince the British to not reduce tank production, or at most some of the least important factories will be converted to do something else. Naturally this begs the question of what is produced less or not at all in Britain here, and what will be produced more in the US if the Sherman program is scaled down a bit early on (OTL the early stages of the program involved a truly gigantic amount of factories but many stopped making Shermans after 1943).
I also brought up how, with a more versatile and capable British tank in production currently, the military brass could standardize more extensively on a single design. With gun designs also being sorted out earlier, this means that many of the programs that were launched OTL don't really have a reason to exist, leaving many capable engineers idle. I pointed out some programs that could be done, but I think that the thing to keep in mind first and foremost is that the British don't need to be as cautious as they were OTL.
There isn't a real need to fix the mess that was British tank production until 1943 OTL or to rush as many designs into production. What I mean with all this is that I think this ITTL Britain will research and develop a lot more of the high quality and innovative stuff, especially regarding ground equipment, like the Americans and to a degree the Soviets were able to do OTL.
For example, OTL the Merritt-Brown transmission pretty much became the standard British tank transmission for 1941 and beyond. Here we may see a lot more research on even more capable transmissions like automatic, cross drive, hydromechanical, maybe more compact ones with less parts, maybe more refined easily replaceable powerpacks and so on. Same could go for more refined suspensions, turret drives, fire control systems, new compact recoil systems.
A good example is the OTL Centurion. As a response to the relatively unreliable previous designs, many aspects of the Centurion were made shitsimple even if it was at the cost of performance. Such was the case with the driver's controls, which were only connected by linkages to the transmission instead of using maybe hydraulic or electrical connections. A late war British tank may instead have something that is more sophisticated but reduces driver effort.
Generally, I think that British tanks could become a lot more efficient by the end of the war than they were in OTL 1945 or even after. This would be a huge plus postwar and may well place Britain in a more dominant position in european tank building.
OTL the British were content with reducing their own tank production and relying more extensively on the US one to focus on other things, as there was a feeling that British tanks didn't perform as well as the Sherman (back when it was at best Churchill and Cromwell). Here we might see the exact opposite with the Victor being superior in many respects to the Sherman (I doubt it will change enough compared to OTL to change that) and reliable and decent build quality. This may convince the British to not reduce tank production, or at most some of the least important factories will be converted to do something else. Naturally this begs the question of what is produced less or not at all in Britain here, and what will be produced more in the US if the Sherman program is scaled down a bit early on (OTL the early stages of the program involved a truly gigantic amount of factories but many stopped making Shermans after 1943).
I also brought up how, with a more versatile and capable British tank in production currently, the military brass could standardize more extensively on a single design. With gun designs also being sorted out earlier, this means that many of the programs that were launched OTL don't really have a reason to exist, leaving many capable engineers idle. I pointed out some programs that could be done, but I think that the thing to keep in mind first and foremost is that the British don't need to be as cautious as they were OTL.
There isn't a real need to fix the mess that was British tank production until 1943 OTL or to rush as many designs into production. What I mean with all this is that I think this ITTL Britain will research and develop a lot more of the high quality and innovative stuff, especially regarding ground equipment, like the Americans and to a degree the Soviets were able to do OTL.
For example, OTL the Merritt-Brown transmission pretty much became the standard British tank transmission for 1941 and beyond. Here we may see a lot more research on even more capable transmissions like automatic, cross drive, hydromechanical, maybe more compact ones with less parts, maybe more refined easily replaceable powerpacks and so on. Same could go for more refined suspensions, turret drives, fire control systems, new compact recoil systems.
A good example is the OTL Centurion. As a response to the relatively unreliable previous designs, many aspects of the Centurion were made shitsimple even if it was at the cost of performance. Such was the case with the driver's controls, which were only connected by linkages to the transmission instead of using maybe hydraulic or electrical connections. A late war British tank may instead have something that is more sophisticated but reduces driver effort.
Generally, I think that British tanks could become a lot more efficient by the end of the war than they were in OTL 1945 or even after. This would be a huge plus postwar and may well place Britain in a more dominant position in european tank building.
Glyndwr01
Banned
Get the Americans to make trucks for logistics instead of tanks! The break down rate on British trucks was abysmal and spares supplied after D-Day for trucks were unusable due to quality of manufacture!
An army marches on its stomach, so anything that can improve the logistics is a good thing. And just on that, how many Jerry cans do you think you could fit in the back of a Universal Carrier?
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allanpcameron
Donor
Would it be possible that following @Bougnas' point that perhaps instead of all 3782 Valentines going to the USSR, maybe it will be the equivalent numbers of Shermans?
What would the British send though? nothing at all isn’t an option.
Regarding switching over to Victor , Vickers will go first. They’re the ones who’ve designed the thing, built the prototypes and have sufficient experience in troubleshooting/optimising production To ramp it up quickly. They’ll literally write the book on how to build them, then send experienced men and women off to the other factories when they are ready to start. Worth remembering that the Valiant II will be an excellent second line tank for most of the war, low rate production could continue for use in the Far East.
Regarding switching over to Victor , Vickers will go first. They’re the ones who’ve designed the thing, built the prototypes and have sufficient experience in troubleshooting/optimising production To ramp it up quickly. They’ll literally write the book on how to build them, then send experienced men and women off to the other factories when they are ready to start. Worth remembering that the Valiant II will be an excellent second line tank for most of the war, low rate production could continue for use in the Far East.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Probably the Soviets will snap up all the M4A2 diesels they can get - in OTL UK had 5000 delivered.
The Soviets got 3,000 Hurricanes in OTL. Surely that is more than enough to be getting on with?
Interesting to see both versions shipped together, I think this will be the first time both Valiant types will 'compete' against each other in combat conditions, with interesting results concerning rivetted vs. welded and petrol vs. diesel in the eyes of the RTR.
Oh my, Miss Victor, are you trying to seduce me?
Because it's working...
Not so sold on the 6pdr Valiant turret, but it does fit in with the style of the contemporary cruisers. I imagine it could be replaced in a later mark with a semi-cast turret without the shot traps.
It's going to be interesting to see if there's a Victor Mk.? that swaps the volute springs for torsion bars.
Depending on when each are released into the wild, I can easily see Victor Vs. Panzer4 Ausf.F2+ as one of the great wartime rivalries on the level of Spitfire vs. Bf.109, each feeding off the improvements to the other to remain on top of their respective weight class.
That's what the Canadians (and probably Australians) are for! It's called the Canadian Military Pattern Truck for a reason!
Officially everything they got sent was pitiful compared to what they made themselves and the blood that they shed whilst the Western allies waited for them to bleed the German army white in the east.
Regardless of what the humble soviet soldier on the front line thought nothing you can possible send will satisy Stalin
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