Fletcher doesn't have much that is nice to say about the Black Prince. The Centurion was on the horizon when they started it's development. Much easier to stick with the Cent.
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
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Fletcher doesn't have much that is nice to say about the Black Prince. The Centurion was on the horizon when they started it's development. Much easier to stick with the Cent.
Fletchers quotes are through a 70 year prism though and most of his complaints center around the fact that it was slow and underpowered, within this time frame if it can have a Fairey V12, Modernised Lion or a Meteor over the Bedford 120 it will be more mobile, it might even be able to change gear without stopping.
Agreed that it will never be as good as a Centurion but it may be that it's easier to develop in TTL than the Centurion, I'd imagine it would be a Churchill/Black Prince hybrid with a 3" gun with a wider turret that would give way to the MBT concept when a Centurion type is developed.
How about a timeline where in 1916 Tritton proposes something like that rather than his actual Flying elephant?
Although the Churchill is still on the horizon ITTL. Here we have Vickers main designer thinking about heavier armour, bigger guns and aircraft engines in 1937. These ideas will filter through to other companies designing tanks including Vauxhall. What if ITTL the original Churchill design incorporates a more powerful engine and decent sized gun, all ready for action by 1941/2. In this senario Black Prince wouldn't be required because the Churchill would be a much better tank giving good service before TTLs Centurian emerges (hopefully earlier that OTL).
I don't know, the development of the britsh tanks was also driven by opponents aka, the Big German Cats. If the britsh tanks are getting beter in 1939/1940, germany will react to these better tanks.
marathag
Banned
Will get OTL reaction leading to the Tiger, that was from meeting the Char B1 and Matilda II in France, where they binned their planned 30 ton series of tanks, for a 45 ton that grew into the Tiger. They didn't do that development before they fought, the Char B1 was no secret to them
This got them missing a needed medium in the 30-35 ton clas that the T-34 and M4 would fill so well. That's the sweet spot for armor, gun and reliability
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You might want that but there would be sufficient "friction" in the British Army that prevents it from occurring. Until the Churchills were all "remanufactured" they were about to be written off. Plus the experience of the regiment that went into the invasion of North Africa, the vehicle was given a second chance and it came good. Black Prince was pushed out of the minds of the designers instead an improved, better manufactured vehicle, the standard Churchill was built in it's place.
30 October 1937. 11:00hrs. Magdeburg-Buckau, Germany.
allanpcameron
Donor
30 October 1937. 11:00hrs. Magdeburg-Buckau, Germany.
Chassis number 80101 rolled off the production line Krupp-Grusonwerk. This was the first Panzer IV Ausf.A of the thirty-five ordered. The company expected the order to be completed by the end of March 1938. The hull was divided into the rear engine compartment, the central crew compartment and the forward-mounted transmission and enclosed driving compartment, the separation between the three compartments was made with a fire resistant and gas-tight armoured firewall.
The hull was topped with a superstructure that was wider than it to provide sufficient protection for the crew members as well as satisfactory working space and ammunition storage. It was made of four welded plates with a visor port on each side. The front plate had the driver plate protruding out, providing the driver with a better view to the front and sides when driving.
The panzer had an auxiliary DKW gasoline engine which provided power the electric engine that was used to traverse the turret. At the rear of the turret, the commander’s cupola was a simple drum shape and eight small vision slits, the commander entered through a two-piece hatch door which also provided a good all-around view when not engaged in combat. The turret ring with a diameter of 1680mm. Its main armament of was the 7.5cm KwK 37 L/24 with an internal gun mantlet. The gun’s role was primarily meant to destroy soft skin targets, anti-tank positions etc. and was thus mostly equipped with high explosive and smoke rounds. An armour piercing round was provided which could penetrate 41mm of armour at 100m. At ranges of 500m, the penetration dropped to 38mm.
A variety of suspension types had been tested but Krupp’s chief tank designer insisted on using a self-dampening leaf spring suspension. The suspension consisted of eight small wheels on each side, suspended in pairs and placed on four bogie assemblies. The small road wheels were suspended by leaf-spring units. For a vehicle weighing 18 tonnes this suspension system was considered adequate. Its engine was the Maybach HL 108TR which produced 230 hp at 2600 rpm giving a maximum speed of 32 km/h (or 10 km/h cross-country). The transmission was five-speed (and one reverse) transmission was connected to the engine by a drive shaft that ran through the bottom of the fighting compartment.
The general armour protection ranged between 8 to 16mm and was designed primarily to provide protection from armour piercing bullets. There were two 7.92 mm MG 34 machine guns, one mounted in a ball mount in the hull operated by the radio operator, the second machine gun was placed in a coaxial configuration with the main gun and was fired by the gunner.
This is mostly a summary of this article.
Chassis number 80101 rolled off the production line Krupp-Grusonwerk. This was the first Panzer IV Ausf.A of the thirty-five ordered. The company expected the order to be completed by the end of March 1938. The hull was divided into the rear engine compartment, the central crew compartment and the forward-mounted transmission and enclosed driving compartment, the separation between the three compartments was made with a fire resistant and gas-tight armoured firewall.
The hull was topped with a superstructure that was wider than it to provide sufficient protection for the crew members as well as satisfactory working space and ammunition storage. It was made of four welded plates with a visor port on each side. The front plate had the driver plate protruding out, providing the driver with a better view to the front and sides when driving.
The panzer had an auxiliary DKW gasoline engine which provided power the electric engine that was used to traverse the turret. At the rear of the turret, the commander’s cupola was a simple drum shape and eight small vision slits, the commander entered through a two-piece hatch door which also provided a good all-around view when not engaged in combat. The turret ring with a diameter of 1680mm. Its main armament of was the 7.5cm KwK 37 L/24 with an internal gun mantlet. The gun’s role was primarily meant to destroy soft skin targets, anti-tank positions etc. and was thus mostly equipped with high explosive and smoke rounds. An armour piercing round was provided which could penetrate 41mm of armour at 100m. At ranges of 500m, the penetration dropped to 38mm.
A variety of suspension types had been tested but Krupp’s chief tank designer insisted on using a self-dampening leaf spring suspension. The suspension consisted of eight small wheels on each side, suspended in pairs and placed on four bogie assemblies. The small road wheels were suspended by leaf-spring units. For a vehicle weighing 18 tonnes this suspension system was considered adequate. Its engine was the Maybach HL 108TR which produced 230 hp at 2600 rpm giving a maximum speed of 32 km/h (or 10 km/h cross-country). The transmission was five-speed (and one reverse) transmission was connected to the engine by a drive shaft that ran through the bottom of the fighting compartment.
The general armour protection ranged between 8 to 16mm and was designed primarily to provide protection from armour piercing bullets. There were two 7.92 mm MG 34 machine guns, one mounted in a ball mount in the hull operated by the radio operator, the second machine gun was placed in a coaxial configuration with the main gun and was fired by the gunner.
This is mostly a summary of this article.
They had already started the Tiger Project pre war and had built in growth for the PZ III in expecting it to up gun to a yet to be designed 50mm at some point in the future
Other than continue to develop the PzIV and eventually giving it a long 75mm they are still waiting for the Panzer V Panther all of which was driven by the heavily armoured French tanks (CHAR Bs etc), Matilda II and then the KV1s met during the summer of 41.
So they were already on a development path dictated by heavier enemy tanks
marathag
Banned
Well, they were sitting on the Gas Tank, pretty much
As shown on the model, on either side of the drive shaft
It's problems were engine and short development related. Correct those and your fine.
Really I want a Churchill/Black Prince Hybrid with the big engine and the big gun.
allanpcameron
Donor
You might want to write your own timeline then, Carden won't be involved in that project.
Allan
Never thought he would be, more wistful thinking that the earlier use of aero engines gives Vauxhall some ideas. Butterfly's and all that.
As for writing my own timeline, we shall see. I'm nowhere near drunk enough to try right now though and too busy devouring yours.
One thing tis hasn't touched on yet is the line of Vickers light tanks. If Sir John is squeezing a 40mm gun into the A11 would he not also manage to squeeze one into the Mk VI?
I thought the MkVI was just too small. There was a 2pdr SPG adaption of the MkVI chassis mocked up and that was tight. I assume a turret has to be larger than a fixed gun and there was no obvious spare space on the SPG.
It was a tank destroyer not an SPG and worked well enough. I really don't see why a Tetrarch turret could be fitted onto a Mk VI hull, it went on enough armoured car hulls.
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