How many of the infantry tanks left are Matilda II's? Assuming they are a defensive perimeter, its going to be hard to find a way to outflank them, and a frontal assault wont go much better. Suspect the Panzers will try, then give up as too hard and let the infantry do the hard work (which wont speed things up any)
Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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The German practice (as potentially opposed to the German Doctrine) did seem to go along the line of 'We're here, we're the Heer, let's mount an attack to see how it goes.'
At which point you find the Matilda II is not your little friend
Well it had tended to work so far......
Which is fine - up until it dosen't - Like Kursk
While you're inside your opponents C3I loop, this tends to work. Until/unless you run up against a tough nut that you can't crack and can't work around.
I understood that they came a cropper during Fall Rot verses the French with the German Panzer commanders resorting to 'crude' tactics and criticised for losing too many AFVs.
marathag
Banned
They though it added a weak spot, and would likely injure/kill the TC
So they had him sitting near blind inside the turret when buttoned up, and totally exposed when not
26-27 May 1940. Calais, France.
allanpcameron
Donor
26-27 May 1940. Calais, France.
The 1st Panzer Division had been reassigned to probe the French and British defences around Gravelines towards Dunkirk. The capture of Calais had been handed to 10th Panzer Division who were finding it hard going. The Vauban fortifications of a by-gone era were giving the modern German attackers grave problems. In addition to the British and French defenders of the port, the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force also contributed to the discomfort of the panzer division in their attempts to capture the town, and the toll to both sides grew.
For the German troops this was a very different experience of war from what they had experienced over the previous fifteen days. They had gotten used to war at the gallop, and now they were involved in a slog, where the panzer was almost useless. It was the blood and sweat of artillery, engineers and infantry that had to be used to evict men from prepared and interconnected defences. The casualties mounted, and another group of German soldiers learned to hate the pom-pom-pom that came from the British infantry tanks.
In the early afternoon in Berlin, the OKH was informed by General Von Rundstedt that he was prepared to recommence the offensive by the von Kleist and Hoff groups. The response was issued later that day, ‘The Fuhrer has authorised the left wing to be moved within artillery range of Dunkirk in order to cut off, from the land side, the continuous flow of transport (evacuations and arrivals).’ At 08:00hrs on 27 May the two German panzer groups resumed their attack, three days and eight hours after they had been halted.
NB Text in italic differs from OTL. OTL Calais fell on 26 May, here it is still holding out, while the infantry tanks of 8th Bn RTR will help much more than the cruisers and lights of 3 RTR, with only one Brigade of infantry Calais will fall in roughly the same way that it did OTL, but again, with higher German casualties.
The 1st Panzer Division had been reassigned to probe the French and British defences around Gravelines towards Dunkirk. The capture of Calais had been handed to 10th Panzer Division who were finding it hard going. The Vauban fortifications of a by-gone era were giving the modern German attackers grave problems. In addition to the British and French defenders of the port, the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force also contributed to the discomfort of the panzer division in their attempts to capture the town, and the toll to both sides grew.
For the German troops this was a very different experience of war from what they had experienced over the previous fifteen days. They had gotten used to war at the gallop, and now they were involved in a slog, where the panzer was almost useless. It was the blood and sweat of artillery, engineers and infantry that had to be used to evict men from prepared and interconnected defences. The casualties mounted, and another group of German soldiers learned to hate the pom-pom-pom that came from the British infantry tanks.
In the early afternoon in Berlin, the OKH was informed by General Von Rundstedt that he was prepared to recommence the offensive by the von Kleist and Hoff groups. The response was issued later that day, ‘The Fuhrer has authorised the left wing to be moved within artillery range of Dunkirk in order to cut off, from the land side, the continuous flow of transport (evacuations and arrivals).’ At 08:00hrs on 27 May the two German panzer groups resumed their attack, three days and eight hours after they had been halted.
NB Text in italic differs from OTL. OTL Calais fell on 26 May, here it is still holding out, while the infantry tanks of 8th Bn RTR will help much more than the cruisers and lights of 3 RTR, with only one Brigade of infantry Calais will fall in roughly the same way that it did OTL, but again, with higher German casualties.
If I remember correctly the Western Desert Force captured a fully equipped Italian tank depot with all tools and spares.
This bit of the campaign should really drive home the need (on both sides) for the need of tanks to carry a decent HE shell. This bodes well for the 6 and 18pdr equipped tanks in future.
I remain optimistic this TL's version of the Churchill will come with a 3" in the turret from the outset thanks to lessons from France.
I remain optimistic this TL's version of the Churchill will come with a 3" in the turret from the outset thanks to lessons from France.
While that might be the case the British Battalion of Italian tanks that tried to stop Rommel's first attack during Sonnenblume had all broken down on day 1!
And that was not long after Compass had finished and proved to be utterly useless
So I hold out little hope of them being much use if sent to the far east!
27 May 1940. The Somme, France.
allanpcameron
Donor
27 May 1940. The Somme, France.
The 1st Armoured Division’s attack, in conjunction with the French 2e and 5e DLCs got underway in heavy rain, which made the ground sticky and the gun sights misted up. The 2nd Armoured Brigade advanced with the Queen’s Bays on the right and 10th Hussars on the left, 9th Lancers were in reserve. The 10th Hussars weren’t informed that the attack had been put back an hour and so they set off without artillery or infantry support. The Germans had fortified villages and the British A13 cruisers had little or no protection against the German 37mm anti-tank guns, it was believed that one gun knocked out nine of the twenty tanks the regiment lost. The Queens Bays, who did attack at the correct time with artillery support and infantry still lost sixteen tanks. The Brigade made no real progress.
The 3rd Armoured Brigade’s objective was high ground overlooking the Somme, on which they found less resistance, but they still lost eighteen tanks between the two Battalions which advanced. However, the French infantry dug in three miles to their rear, forcing the tanks to have to withdraw. In addition to the losses to enemy action, another 55 tanks had mechanical breakdowns.
(This is all as OTL)
The 1st Armoured Division’s attack, in conjunction with the French 2e and 5e DLCs got underway in heavy rain, which made the ground sticky and the gun sights misted up. The 2nd Armoured Brigade advanced with the Queen’s Bays on the right and 10th Hussars on the left, 9th Lancers were in reserve. The 10th Hussars weren’t informed that the attack had been put back an hour and so they set off without artillery or infantry support. The Germans had fortified villages and the British A13 cruisers had little or no protection against the German 37mm anti-tank guns, it was believed that one gun knocked out nine of the twenty tanks the regiment lost. The Queens Bays, who did attack at the correct time with artillery support and infantry still lost sixteen tanks. The Brigade made no real progress.
The 3rd Armoured Brigade’s objective was high ground overlooking the Somme, on which they found less resistance, but they still lost eighteen tanks between the two Battalions which advanced. However, the French infantry dug in three miles to their rear, forcing the tanks to have to withdraw. In addition to the losses to enemy action, another 55 tanks had mechanical breakdowns.
(This is all as OTL)
Considering how much the Stug series was used OTL I think it'd stay about the same TTL, if anything I think it'd speed up the move to the Pz4 from the 3 as the 'mainline' tank for the Germans.
For the outside chance, it might inspire the Brits and/or Americans to have their own Stug-style assault gun (see my earlier posts on a 'turretless' M3). I'm not expecting anything like the Tortoise before the end of the war, but maybe something derived from the Birch (and successors) designed from the outset to be used in the direct-fire role.
Whatever the Valiants may have done on the road to Dunkirk, it sounds like both sides are now getting a lesson in the limitations of tanks in attacks on prepared positions. Also that the tank vs AT gun balance is very binary - either the AT guns can penetrate the tanks at a useful range, in which case a tank attack will mostly produce wrecked tanks, or they can't, in which case the gun crews may as well give up and pull out while they can.
I can see the post-battle British assessment focussing on the value of better-armoured tanks, while the Germans give up up on the 37mm and start thinking about tank-destroyers and shoot-and-scoot tactics.
I can see the post-battle British assessment focussing on the value of better-armoured tanks, while the Germans give up up on the 37mm and start thinking about tank-destroyers and shoot-and-scoot tactics.
Well the 37mm wasn't completely useless, it could still take out vehicles other than tanks.
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