Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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Would issuing every member of the garrison a set of bag pipes and ordering them to start practicing as soon as the Germans show up constitute a war crime?
Without a shadow of a doubt
Definition of a Scottish Gentleman?
A Scotsman who knows how to play the bagpipes........but doesn't
Oh well if that's out I'll have to do something truly horrible. Gentlemen it's time to break out the loud speakers and the George Formby records.
allanpcameron
Donor
The 6th Seaforth Highlanders mentioned in the previous post was my father's Battalion. He was called up in 1943 and served with them at Anzio and in Northern Europe, finishing the war in Lubeck. The pipes were and continue to be an important part of Scottish culture. Anyone who doesn't appreciated them are obviously a bunch of Sassenachs, and should shake in their boots at the mightiness of the massed pipes and drums of the Royal Regiment of Scotland. Happy Hogmanay, and a guid New Year whenever it comes for you.
Allan.
I have nothing against the pipes and am able to do the scales with them.
Well played the pipes fire up your blood and make you feel you can do anything. Played by novices though they look and sound like you've a cat under your arm and are biting its tail.
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Getting away from tea and bagpipes for the moment (yes, heresy, I know), I've been seriously impressed by the amount of effort and research @allanpcameron has put into his re-work of the Battle of Arras.
And it's paid off with a very plausible story of how better equipment and better organisation/communication could have led to a much better outcome. Yes, the British got lucky with 25th Pz getting themselves ambushed twice, but I don't the Germans will be scoffing at British tactics. From their point of view they've run into a well-coordinated combined-arms force that knows to keep its tanks concentrated and has mastered the panzer tactic of drawing the enemy onto a strong defensive position. No blind charges onto gun lines so far TTL.
The other thing that tends to get conveniently forgotten about the OTL Battle of Arras is that for all its moments of success the counter-attack was overall a failure with 2/3 of the British tanks destroyed and the attacking forces back on their start line. Here the British have not only inflicted more damage on the attack but just as importantly have been able to disengage with most of their armoured units still fit for action. Any German attack on Arras is likely to meet a warm reception and critically, there is still a mobile reserve to cover against outflanking moves to the west and north-west..
So, on to Calais and the Somme. Where things are again better than OTL, but it's still a story of overstretched, under-supported units thrown into a chaotic situation with minimal preparation. 8th RTR should do pretty well holding the line at Calais (unless they get split up and ordered to Boulogne), but the 1st Armoured's cruisers, in a mobile battle with no secure flanks or proper infantry support - maybe not so much. OTL, the Allies built up their biggest armoured force of the campaign on the lower Somme - and then wore it out in futile attacks on the German bridgeheads south of Abbeville.
And it's paid off with a very plausible story of how better equipment and better organisation/communication could have led to a much better outcome. Yes, the British got lucky with 25th Pz getting themselves ambushed twice, but I don't the Germans will be scoffing at British tactics. From their point of view they've run into a well-coordinated combined-arms force that knows to keep its tanks concentrated and has mastered the panzer tactic of drawing the enemy onto a strong defensive position. No blind charges onto gun lines so far TTL.
The other thing that tends to get conveniently forgotten about the OTL Battle of Arras is that for all its moments of success the counter-attack was overall a failure with 2/3 of the British tanks destroyed and the attacking forces back on their start line. Here the British have not only inflicted more damage on the attack but just as importantly have been able to disengage with most of their armoured units still fit for action. Any German attack on Arras is likely to meet a warm reception and critically, there is still a mobile reserve to cover against outflanking moves to the west and north-west..
So, on to Calais and the Somme. Where things are again better than OTL, but it's still a story of overstretched, under-supported units thrown into a chaotic situation with minimal preparation. 8th RTR should do pretty well holding the line at Calais (unless they get split up and ordered to Boulogne), but the 1st Armoured's cruisers, in a mobile battle with no secure flanks or proper infantry support - maybe not so much. OTL, the Allies built up their biggest armoured force of the campaign on the lower Somme - and then wore it out in futile attacks on the German bridgeheads south of Abbeville.
I too want to echo the sentiments of Merrick. The amount of research and effort that has gone into this story is truly impressive. Well done to @allanpcameron and keep on with the fantastic work you are doing.
A question for those with the sources. Does anyone have the production numbers for British tanks in 1940.
By type or by month, or both if possible.
I have a number of 1400-ish for the whole year but would really like more detail if possible.
Thankyou in advance
A question for those with the sources. Does anyone have the production numbers for British tanks in 1940.
By type or by month, or both if possible.
I have a number of 1400-ish for the whole year but would really like more detail if possible.
Thankyou in advance
Closest thing to monthly is quarterly for the years 1939 - 1941, as described in BRITISH WAR PRODUCTION by M. M. Postan ( https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Civil-WarProduction/index.html ) in chapter 4 ( https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/UK-Civil-WarProduction/UK-Civil-WarProduction-4.html ) table 25 for tank production in those years. Table has separate columns for total, and for cruiser, infantry and light tanks. Total for 1st quarter is 218, 2nd 340, 3rd 392 and 4th 449, but for year 1941 there is much greater increase of production, 1th quarter of 1941 has 653, 2nd 943, 3rd 1368 and 4th 1877 tanks of different types.
By type I suggest you check for yourself. But the biggest increase comes from production of infantry tanks, cruiser production was initially highest, but in the end of year, quarterly numbers are so, that for every cruiser there are two or three infantry tanks produced and light tank production figures are very low in tens, when others are in hundreds or low thousands (in year 1941).
Thanks, I should be able to work out rough estimates from here.
Now all we need is Allan's next update
23 May 1940. 06:30hrs. Calais, France.
allanpcameron
Donor
23 May 1940. 06:30hrs. Calais, France.
The process of unloading the 8th Bn RTR tanks from the ships had gone on through most of the night. The power for the dockside cranes had gone off a 21:00hrs, so that the ships’ own derricks had to do the heavy lifting, which prompted ‘trouble with the ship’s staff’ as the matter was euphemistically later recorded, work only resuming at 01:30hrs. A gun being pointed at the head of the ship’s master to prevent him from sailing off with the tanks still on board because of the German air attacks, was best kept out of the official history.
Three of A Company’s Light Tanks had driven to Boulogne the previous night as requested, one of them returning at first light to say that the Guards Battalions were digging in, with no immediate sign of Germans. The 2nd-Lieutenant commanding the scout section had made the decision to leave two of the Mark VI Light tanks in place to give the Guards some local reconnaissance. The tanks’ wireless range wasn’t long enough to keep communication between the section and the rest of the Battalion, communications throughout the area were patchy. Lt-Col Winberg was angry at the junior officer’s decision, hoping that Brigadier Fox-Pitt didn’t assume that these were the first tranche of his hoped-for reinforcements.
The scout element of B Company at dawn were sent off in the direction of St Omer to try to link with elements of the BEF there, and C Company sent off three light tanks in the direction of Dunkirk to make contact and establish communication with the British forces there. Lt-Col Winberg was now confident that his whole Battalion was going to be available from 11:00hrs. As each tank had been removed from the ship, it was fueled and then driven to Coquelles where the Battalion was assembling, the process of ‘netting’ to make sure all the wirelesses were operative and on the same frequency.
Winberg’s problem however was that everyone wanted his tanks for their own purposes. The general sense of panic that had overtaken the army, even to the highest levels, had filtered down, giving Winberg conflicting orders. General Brownrigg had told him to go to Boulogne, but Winberg was, according to his orders under the command of Colonel Rupert Holland, the local commander. Brownrigg had gone off to Dover during the night on a destroyer, and Winberg wasn’t able to confirm those orders with BEF GHQ. As 30th Brigade arrived to be added to the Calais garrison, Brigadier Claude Nicholson believed, from a conversation with General Brownrigg in Dover, that the tanks would be under his command.
The matter was resolved later in the morning with the arrival of Brigadier Vyvyan Pope. The original request that all tanks in the BEF should have a specific commander at GHQ had never come to pass. Pope was Brigadier AFVs, the nearest thing to someone in charge. Pope had arrived at Calais having seen what the rest of First Army Tank Brigade had done at Arras the previous day. Since 8th Bn RTR was technically part of that Brigade he overrode all the other ‘expectations’ of who the tanks were under the command of. His first instinct was to get the Battalion of tanks to move as quickly as they could to join their comrades at Vimy. But his arrival at Calais, after a journey via Hazebrouck, the Advanced GHQ BEF, convinced him that attempting to go against the flood of refugees and retreating forces would take them too long.
Pope was able to show Winberg what was believed to the current situation. At least two (1st and 2nd) Panzer Divisions were believed to be in the vicinity of Hesdin and Montreuil. These would probably attempt to cut the BEF off from the ports of Boulogne and Calais. Pope believed that Boulogne was a lost cause, even if it was reinforced, it was too far away from the BEF’s main force to be saved. Dunkirk and Calais however were going to be crucial, and the canalised River L’Aa was likely to a key part of the defensive network. The danger was that the entire right flank of the BEF was pretty much in the air on the line of Arras, Béthune and St Omer. Pope ordered Winberg to leave two Companies, some thirty tanks, in Calais, watching the road from Boulogne, which was the likeliest approach of the Germans. But one Company, was to make their way to St Omer, along with two Companies of the Queen Victoria’s Rifles to secure the crossings of the canal at Watten and St Omer.* If the Germans got across there, then Dunkirk would be vulnerable in addition to Calais.
Brigadier Pope asked Colonel Holland, as local commander, to try to sort out from the units turning up at Calais which were ‘useless mouths’ who were to be evacuated and got of the way, and which were units that had some fight in them. The latter should be put under the command of Nicholson to beef up the forces capable of defending Calais. They might only have a few hours before the Germans appeared, and so every second counted.
NB Text in italic differs from OTL
* 3 Bn RTR who were at Calais were part of a bidding war between various commanders who wanted them. The need to cover Watten and St Omer was part of the story. A Major Bailey, GHQ liaison with 3 RTR, on discovering that the scout patrol to St Omer hadn't found any British forces and that the town was under artillery fire, insisted that 3 RTR go to St Omer immediately, but the Battalion wouldn't be ready until 13:00hrs. Setting off at 06:30hrs Bailey insisted on going himself to St Omer, in a car escorted by 3 light tanks, but they only got 7 miles from Calais when they were intercepted by lead elements of 6th Panzer Division. Later in the day, when the whole Battalion attempted to move to St Omer, they were intercepted by elements 10th Panzer Division and fell back to Calais. Meanwhile 2nd Panzer Division were attacking Boulogne with 1st Panzer Division probing towards Calais from the south. Here, the halt order to clear up Arras is still in place, giving an extra day for the defenders of Boulogne and Calais to prepare. Again, I'm making things better than they actually were, which is probably unfair considering the limited changes due to a slightly better showing at Arras.
The process of unloading the 8th Bn RTR tanks from the ships had gone on through most of the night. The power for the dockside cranes had gone off a 21:00hrs, so that the ships’ own derricks had to do the heavy lifting, which prompted ‘trouble with the ship’s staff’ as the matter was euphemistically later recorded, work only resuming at 01:30hrs. A gun being pointed at the head of the ship’s master to prevent him from sailing off with the tanks still on board because of the German air attacks, was best kept out of the official history.
Three of A Company’s Light Tanks had driven to Boulogne the previous night as requested, one of them returning at first light to say that the Guards Battalions were digging in, with no immediate sign of Germans. The 2nd-Lieutenant commanding the scout section had made the decision to leave two of the Mark VI Light tanks in place to give the Guards some local reconnaissance. The tanks’ wireless range wasn’t long enough to keep communication between the section and the rest of the Battalion, communications throughout the area were patchy. Lt-Col Winberg was angry at the junior officer’s decision, hoping that Brigadier Fox-Pitt didn’t assume that these were the first tranche of his hoped-for reinforcements.
The scout element of B Company at dawn were sent off in the direction of St Omer to try to link with elements of the BEF there, and C Company sent off three light tanks in the direction of Dunkirk to make contact and establish communication with the British forces there. Lt-Col Winberg was now confident that his whole Battalion was going to be available from 11:00hrs. As each tank had been removed from the ship, it was fueled and then driven to Coquelles where the Battalion was assembling, the process of ‘netting’ to make sure all the wirelesses were operative and on the same frequency.
Winberg’s problem however was that everyone wanted his tanks for their own purposes. The general sense of panic that had overtaken the army, even to the highest levels, had filtered down, giving Winberg conflicting orders. General Brownrigg had told him to go to Boulogne, but Winberg was, according to his orders under the command of Colonel Rupert Holland, the local commander. Brownrigg had gone off to Dover during the night on a destroyer, and Winberg wasn’t able to confirm those orders with BEF GHQ. As 30th Brigade arrived to be added to the Calais garrison, Brigadier Claude Nicholson believed, from a conversation with General Brownrigg in Dover, that the tanks would be under his command.
The matter was resolved later in the morning with the arrival of Brigadier Vyvyan Pope. The original request that all tanks in the BEF should have a specific commander at GHQ had never come to pass. Pope was Brigadier AFVs, the nearest thing to someone in charge. Pope had arrived at Calais having seen what the rest of First Army Tank Brigade had done at Arras the previous day. Since 8th Bn RTR was technically part of that Brigade he overrode all the other ‘expectations’ of who the tanks were under the command of. His first instinct was to get the Battalion of tanks to move as quickly as they could to join their comrades at Vimy. But his arrival at Calais, after a journey via Hazebrouck, the Advanced GHQ BEF, convinced him that attempting to go against the flood of refugees and retreating forces would take them too long.
Pope was able to show Winberg what was believed to the current situation. At least two (1st and 2nd) Panzer Divisions were believed to be in the vicinity of Hesdin and Montreuil. These would probably attempt to cut the BEF off from the ports of Boulogne and Calais. Pope believed that Boulogne was a lost cause, even if it was reinforced, it was too far away from the BEF’s main force to be saved. Dunkirk and Calais however were going to be crucial, and the canalised River L’Aa was likely to a key part of the defensive network. The danger was that the entire right flank of the BEF was pretty much in the air on the line of Arras, Béthune and St Omer. Pope ordered Winberg to leave two Companies, some thirty tanks, in Calais, watching the road from Boulogne, which was the likeliest approach of the Germans. But one Company, was to make their way to St Omer, along with two Companies of the Queen Victoria’s Rifles to secure the crossings of the canal at Watten and St Omer.* If the Germans got across there, then Dunkirk would be vulnerable in addition to Calais.
Brigadier Pope asked Colonel Holland, as local commander, to try to sort out from the units turning up at Calais which were ‘useless mouths’ who were to be evacuated and got of the way, and which were units that had some fight in them. The latter should be put under the command of Nicholson to beef up the forces capable of defending Calais. They might only have a few hours before the Germans appeared, and so every second counted.
NB Text in italic differs from OTL
* 3 Bn RTR who were at Calais were part of a bidding war between various commanders who wanted them. The need to cover Watten and St Omer was part of the story. A Major Bailey, GHQ liaison with 3 RTR, on discovering that the scout patrol to St Omer hadn't found any British forces and that the town was under artillery fire, insisted that 3 RTR go to St Omer immediately, but the Battalion wouldn't be ready until 13:00hrs. Setting off at 06:30hrs Bailey insisted on going himself to St Omer, in a car escorted by 3 light tanks, but they only got 7 miles from Calais when they were intercepted by lead elements of 6th Panzer Division. Later in the day, when the whole Battalion attempted to move to St Omer, they were intercepted by elements 10th Panzer Division and fell back to Calais. Meanwhile 2nd Panzer Division were attacking Boulogne with 1st Panzer Division probing towards Calais from the south. Here, the halt order to clear up Arras is still in place, giving an extra day for the defenders of Boulogne and Calais to prepare. Again, I'm making things better than they actually were, which is probably unfair considering the limited changes due to a slightly better showing at Arras.
NotBigBrother
Monthly Donor
The brave crew unloaded tanks in spite of the German air attack threat. (The official history)
I'm beginning to see Op Dynamo ITTL being a larger area or pocket that incorporates both Calais and Dunkirk and giving the Allied forces greater options with far more men and equipment able to be evacuated.
But I'll shut up now.....
But I'll shut up now.....
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