Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[Paulo the Limey]

People are taking the impact of three tanks waaaaaay too far. They aren’t going to be striking fear into Germans, nor causing a mass change in their Panzer production.
That will start to happen if/when they start facing them in quantity in North Africa. Their tactic of drawing enemy on to their antitank guns before counterattacking won’t work well, plus the Valiant is likely a lot more reliable than the various piles of poo that got sent to Egypt.

 

[Astrodragon]

People are taking the impact of three tanks waaaaaay too far. They aren’t going to be striking fear into Germans, nor causing a mass change in their Panzer production.
That will start to happen if/when they start facing them in quantity in North Africa. Their tactic of drawing enemy on to their antitank guns before counterattacking won’t work well, plus the Valiant is likely a lot more reliable than the various piles of poo that got sent to Egypt.

Now now, don't be rude about the wonder that is Nuffield engineering

 

[GrahamB]

The point stands, at this point there's only a grand total of three early model Valiants heading in the general direction of France, without confirmation they even get there to face the wrath of a Panzer2 swarm.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the Vals never reach France if transport delays or changing conditions in the channel stall the move until the general recall is sounded. That said I think it likely for the 8th Bn RTR to arrive in time for a general reinforce/rearguard action where the Germans may or may not note the presence of 'British Heavy Tanks' (and they'd certainly look heavy compared to their stablemates).

 

[allanpcameron]

22 May 1940. 09:00hrs. Sant-Illiers-le-Bois, France.

General Evans, Commander of 1st Armoured Division, had been unsuccessful in his attempts to contact GHQ at Wahignies in Belgium. Communications were now having to be routed through London, which took an interminable time. Where previously, he’d been able to fly into Belgium on one of the RAF’s Army Cooperation Dragon Rapide, these were no longer available. The orders he had received previously were for the Division to assemble at Bolbec, north of the River Seine, about 15 miles east of Le Harve. The problem now was that there were German bridgeheads over the River Somme between Picquigny and Pont Remy (between Amiens and Abbeville). Evans’ Division at this point however, consisted of one armoured Regiment, the Queens Bays, on its way from Cherbourg, and the 101st Light Anti-Aircraft and Anti-Tank Regiment.

More of the 2nd Armoured Brigade had unloaded at Cherburg during the previous day, and were due to arrive to reinforce the Queens Bays by 24 May. Thereafter, 3rd Armoured Brigade, three Battalions of the Royal Tank Regiment, who were now on their way to Southampton to join the rest of the Division, would arrive and be ready for operations by 26 May. Evans was under pressure to push up and re-establish the line of communications between the BEF and its supplies which had been cut by the Panzer Divisions running along the north of the River Somme. His attempts to contact Gort’s headquarters was to try to get clarification of just exactly how they expected him to do that with the forces at his disposal.

Evans was conscious that, even if his whole Division was in place, it was still short of its War Establishment in Cruiser tanks, and especially in training. The original idea had been for the Division to gather at Pacy-sur-Eure where its training would be completed. He reverted to this place for the concentration of his Division, rather than on the other side of the River Seine, at Bolbec. The newest orders he was being asked carry out was to throw his units into action piecemeal and without any proper reconnaissance, infantry and artillery support. He agreed to send the Queens Bays twenty miles east of Rouen to the Foret de Lyons, from there they could watch the crossings over the River Epte, a northern tributary of the Somme. As the rest of the 2nd Brigade arrived, they could concentrate there and reconnoitre forwards to the west bank of the Somme. In addition, he ordered the 101st Regiment would take up positions along the River Seine to guard the bridges that his tanks would need to proceed eastwards. This wasn’t what his commanders wanted from him but, realistically it was all he could do.

 

[Atrophied]

Well apprently authors is atleast keeping calais open to some troop evacuation i imagine and as said by others it will still distract the germans from the dunkirk pocket aswell .

Even if the amounts arent massive it will still help and has been said there is a chance of using the train carriers at calais if the RN suddenly remember them and they arent very out of position . U could take the three valiants back that way for example and have it be a myth of sorts if they dont loose any or leave them behind from the german pov . And it wouldnt be super hard for the brits to specifically destroy the 3 valiants if they cant evacuate them to deny intelligence to the germans here anyway.

Abit better matildas tough might still drive some change from otl especially on the guns part as people have speculated but i have no idea how much for the germans . Since they should know that the soviets have the KV-1 i think were the heavy tanks called if my memory isnt fooling me and this has showed that infantry tanks are a problem for cruisers if they have hard time killing them more than otl did and this was the driving force behind the tiger anyway. Maybe some more urgency is given to the panther and tiger tanks compared to otl or atleast problems with them are worked out earlier could be another point to change ? Thanks to the infantry tank concept being encountered and them chopping up a panzer regiment.

 

[RetiredCdntanker]

I really don't understand why they would send three tanks of a unique type.
They would require many unique parts that aren't shared by the other models and crews wouldn't have a lot of training on them; let alone the fitters attached to the Regiment..
Not only that, but because the higher ups would know that they have a superior tank, they would throw those tanks against the Germans wherever there was a threat.
Undoubtedly, at least one would break down, not all of the faults and weaknesses would have been found out yet.
Just doesn't seem like a wise decision.......

 

[marathag]

Since they should know that the soviets have the KV-1 i think

Germans had no idea on the KV, and apparently the Finns never passed that along, as the relations were very frosty until Barbarossa.
Germans couldn't figure out when visiting Soviets asked, 'come on, show us your best heavy tanks, not these Mk IV you claim are your best ' in 1939

 

[MattII]

I think a population of approximately 8 million is more than big enough to justify it. They had a big enough population IOTL to build the Sentinel.

A tank which only got produced in double figures. And yes, they didn't have the industrial capacity do really build tanks on top of all their other requirements. Also, their population at the time was only around 7.1 million.

They managed to set up the Twin Wasp aero engine factory in just over a year which is arguably more difficult.

The manpower required for that and all the other stuff they're building kind of makes building a tank factory as well, kind of a stretch.

OTL Calais was taken by Guderian's Panzer Corps after a short hard fight. This force had been going hard for two weeks and was at the end of its physical and material ability to continue the fight. These panzer divisions needed rest, resupply and servicing. There was sound reason to stop the panzers outside Dunkirk.

Here the ports garrison just got a lot tougher than the OTL vickers light tanks and the odd cruiser tank sent OTL. In street fighting my money's on the British infantry tanks causing lots of panzer and infantry casualties. Perhaps enough to force the Germans to withdraw a short distance, invest the port and wait for the main force of infantry and heavy artillery to arrive. This sounds good and takes a lot of the pressure of the Dunkirk perimeter during the early stages of the evacuation. however Calais as a port for a major evacuation isn't going to be in fit state after being fought over and the getting the full attention of the Luftwaffe. But every bomb dropped and shell thrown at Calais is one less at Dunkirk.

Holding Calais means allowing the use of Route Z for evacuations, which is shorter, and thus both quicker, and easier to defend, so fewer bombs will be dropped regardless, plus you might be able to get some equipment out, if only the stuff that can be man-packed.

Though OTL, the US ignored Tigers in Tunisia and Panthers in Italy and kept the same 75mm for the invasion of France, sidelined the 76mm armed version of the M4A3 till Cobra.
Germans will still get the Tiger at roughly the same time and quantity, might see something like the Panther, like the various V30 designs sooner, from what goes on in North Africa

They figured those would only get produced in lower numbers though, which proved not to be true (for the Panther at least). If the Germans see the Valiant, I tihnk it's quite reasonable for them to realise that these are the new British mediums, and are going to be the main front-line vehicles, which is quite a different thing to consider.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

7th Panzer have had a mauling and will likely be withdrawn to reorganise and resupply. 7th Panzer currently looks unlikely to repeat its performance in the second part of the campaign and won’t win the name ghost division.

Unless it's a ghost division, because they're all dead?

 

[Bougnas]

Germans had no idea on the KV, and apparently the Finns never passed that along, as the relations were very frosty until Barbarossa.
Germans couldn't figure out when visiting Soviets asked, 'come on, show us your best heavy tanks, not these Mk IV you claim are your best ' in 1939

Exactly, I am as baffled as the Soviets were that Germany had no actual heavy in the works. Even the VK 3001 (H) is just a short gun Panzer IV redux with 50mm of armor, the same gun and overall similar mobility, but somehow 10 tons heavier? The VK 20s were as much dead ends, basically Pz III or IV with more reliable drivetrains, suspensions, same weight for the same armor, new turrets and the same guns. They wanted a 1600mm turret ring with a KwK 44 (typo likely, but L70 or L43?, either way no way this stays under 30 tons). Only other benefit is more engine power.

 

[Atrophied]

i know t34 was a very bad suprise to the soviets .

But i think tiger was mostly to built after encountering french and british heavy tanks anyway at first and got a serious impetous thanks to barbarossa encounters . This time the british matildas were very very effective against cruisers if they dont just decide to crucify rommel and ignore the battle for some reason. And im pretty sure the germans knew of a infantry tank of the soviets but they had no idea what it was.
Maybe here they ask for data from finnish and pay them something for it if the army insists on knowing about soviet armored forces ? Maybe some captured gear from the french or british ?

I still think a earlier tiger might be possible even if its just a L60 or L70 75mm gun at first with a tiger mark 2 coming in 43 with a 88 and sloped armor and not be as big as the otl mark 2 was ? And simpler hopefully to get the manhours and costs down abit ?

The same for panthers , maybe some more urgency again .

 

[marathag]

Exactly, I am as baffled as the Soviets were that Germany had no actual heavy in the works. Ev

Even the US had the M6 Heavy running 5 months ahead of where the Tiger was at,when first demonstrated on Mustache's B-day

 

[thegreatpl]

I really don't understand why they would send three tanks of a unique type.
They would require many unique parts that aren't shared by the other models and crews wouldn't have a lot of training on them; let alone the fitters attached to the Regiment..
Not only that, but because the higher ups would know that they have a superior tank, they would throw those tanks against the Germans wherever there was a threat.
Undoubtedly, at least one would break down, not all of the faults and weaknesses would have been found out yet.
Just doesn't seem like a wise decision.......

Considering how the situation in France right now is going, it is easy to see desperate politicians and generals throwing every weapon they can to try and stop the Germans. See them telling Evans to throw his units into the attack as soon as they arrive, instead of something sane like holding in position until he has the forces neccessary to engage.

Grabbing three tanks that are just lying around to add to the force you are rushing into service makes a certain amount of sense, especially when you expect them to be engaging the enemy before they would break down...

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

I really don't understand why they would send three tanks of a unique type.
They would require many unique parts that aren't shared by the other models and crews wouldn't have a lot of training on them; let alone the fitters attached to the Regiment..
Not only that, but because the higher ups would know that they have a superior tank, they would throw those tanks against the Germans wherever there was a threat.
Undoubtedly, at least one would break down, not all of the faults and weaknesses would have been found out yet.
Just doesn't seem like a wise decision.......

Considering how the situation in France right now is going, it is easy to see desperate politicians and generals throwing every weapon they can to try and stop the Germans. See them telling Evans to throw his units into the attack as soon as they arrive, instead of something sane like holding in position until he has the forces neccessary to engage.

Grabbing three tanks that are just lying around to add to the force you are rushing into service makes a certain amount of sense, especially when you expect them to be engaging the enemy before they would break down...

The British did send 3 Churchills out for El Alamein (Kingforce) as a trial regarding future deployment in French North Africa for Torch.

This ignored the problems of unique parts and lack of crew & fitters' experience, so on that point the Valiant's early appearance can be understood.

 

[MattII]

I wonder if some effort will be put into research to reduce spalling.

 

[Orry]

British tank crews often painted names on their tanks

If the three Valients make it there can they be called

Faith, Hope and Charity

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

The British did send 3 Churchills out for El Alamein (Kingforce) as a trial regarding future deployment in French North Africa for Torch.

This ignored the problems of unique parts and lack of crew & fitters' experience, so on that point the Valiant's early appearance can be understood.

That's a different situation. It's one thing to send out vehicles already in service for a trial, but a completely different thing to send out what are essentially unknown as yet to the enemy prototypes on what's a forlorn hope. You may as well just hand the blueprints over to the enemy.

 

[GrahamB]

Faith, Hope and Charity

Weren't those the three Gladiators that held out on Malta? I wouldn't want to take the glamour from them.
Mind, the trio of Vals are as likely to be named Tom, Dick, and Harry, Tommies being the jokers they are.

 

[marathag]

British tank crews often painted names on their tanks

If the three Valients make it there can they be called

Faith, Hope and Charity

From Squadron, 'A' would have names starting with 'A' and so on.

 

[marathag]

That's a different situation. It's one thing to send out vehicles already in service for a trial, but a completely different thing to send out what are essentially unknown as yet to the enemy prototypes on what's a forlorn hope. You may as well just hand the blueprints over to the enemy.

British captured a Tiger in Tunisia. If you're going to field a weapon, expect them to get captured at some point.
Germans also got some Churchill at Dieppe.