Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

[Finbarr the Fair]

Desperation, what about Devastation...., I remember a story about the early days of Barbarossa and the first encounter with the KV 1&2... Nothing that Germany had could take them on from a distance. The Valiants can run amok through the German Front Line Troops and almost nothing (except Flak 88 / Field artillery in direct fire mode) can take them out. As soon the these reports come back to Britain, the production of Valiants will be maxed out. In Berlin they may take counsil of the fears and be very afraid of taking on the BEF head on.

I suppose once the Germans assess the after-action reports and examine the British tanks left behind they reconsider what upgrades are needed to existing tanks. And kick start the programmes for replacements. This would happen even when only Matildas (either version) are available, any Valiants would merely emphasize the needs.

Short-term I'd expect the 5cm L60 to be the standard for the PzIII. IF enough can be produced to replace the infantry anti-tank guns also. Which probably would be the case as there would be no need for a new production line for the shorter version. (Is that correct?) Both PzIII and PzIV to be given increased armour.

Wild card suggestion for late 1941 but planned before Barbarossa. Adopt the 75mmL43 (?) for the PzIV and gradually turn to making StugIIIs rather than PzIIIs.

Maybe a lighter Panther for 1942?

 

[Derek Pullem]

The issue there is that the drive-train of the Valiant is beyond anything the Australians are currently capable of producing, while the drive-train of the Matilda II is either already within their capabilities, or close enough that it would take only a modest amount of work to get there. And I very much doubt they'd get a factory anyway, not a large enough population to really justify it.

They managed to set up the Twin Wasp aero engine factory in just over a year which is arguably more difficult.

 

[Paul_Sussex]

A bit of an aside, but my understanding is that OTL Sentinel was to be produced primarily for action in North Africa and perhaps Europe? (Someone like Rickshaw can sanity check me) In TTL hopefully there will be enough Valiants produced that this will not be an issue.

In the meantime, resources put into Sentinal could be used to build A12 Matildas for Far East deployment redesigned with a better cast hull and powered by twin Cadillac V8's for about 220hp?

 

[MarcH]

Tanks for Australia is a tricky one.

On the one hand Australia building tanks for their own use does make sense. The thing is Australia will need to prioritise what it is building and aircraft are more useful.
OTL Australia shouldn't have bothered with the Sentinel. Starting from scratch designing a whole new tank mid war when you have no prior experience is not a good idea. They would have been far better making a British design. If, that is there had been a design worth making. Outside the Matilda 2 which was a bit of a dogs dinner to make so not worth setting up the facilities on a scale that makes sense for Australia.
TTL is a bit different though. Along with the Matilda 2 the Valiant and Matilda 1 are both more than good enough to face off against Japan. The Matilda 1, a small cheap and ITTL effective tank does make quite a bit of sense for Australia.
The thing is Britain is going to be making a lot more tanks in all likelihood so some like the Matilda 2 could well be diverted to the far East sooner than OTL, perhaps pre war with Japan even. If that happens Australia is better focusing on aircraft etc.

 

[Astrodragon]

I'm wondering a little why the Germans are going to get so panicky about the Valiant armour? The Matilda's OTL was even thicker, and they didn't really rush for more powerful guns

 

[mafio ball]

I suppose once the Germans assess the after-action reports and examine the British tanks left behind they reconsider what upgrades are needed to existing tanks. And kick start the programmes for replacements. This would happen even when only Matildas (either version) are available, any Valiants would merely emphasize the needs.

Short-term I'd expect the 5cm L60 to be the standard for the PzIII. IF enough can be produced to replace the infantry anti-tank guns also. Which probably would be the case as there would be no need for a new production line for the shorter version. (Is that correct?) Both PzIII and PzIV to be given increased armour.

Wild card suggestion for late 1941 but planned before Barbarossa. Adopt the 75mmL43 (?) for the PzIV and gradually turn to making StugIIIs rather than PzIIIs.

Maybe a lighter Panther for 1942?

How about Tiger with PzV marking, 80mm armor and 7.5cm Kwk40 L / 43.
When he came from the drawing tables by the end of 1940, prototypes could run in the spring of 41 ...

 

[steamboy]

I'm wondering a little why the Germans are going to get so panicky about the Valiant armour? The Matilda's OTL was even thicker, and they didn't really rush for more powerful guns

Perhaps because the Valiant is a far faster and more tactically and strategically mobile asset than the slow, plodding Matilda I/II and having near that level of protection on a comparatively fast and mobile chassis will be more intimidating than the Last March of the Ents that is a Matilda's advance.

 

[steamboy]

How about Tiger with PzV marking, 80mm armor and 7.5cm Kwk40 L / 43.
When he came from the drawing tables by the end of 1940, prototypes could run in the spring of 41 ...

Good idea, but the problem with German tank designers is that they were competing for contracts and for Adolf's attention, plus there was an ever shifting requirement for tanks and what should be included in them, their capabilities etc as well as the various armour firms fighting for resources, input from what the Heer wanted, what Hitler wanted, what the tank designers wanted and so on.

its why if you look at German tank designs and the various VK series that were never made each iteration is basically

"Okay so we want this and this right?"
"Yeah but what about this?"
*changes*
"Okay so now we've got this and this and that, all good?"
"The Furher didn't like this aspect."
*changes again*
"Fine..so now we've got this, that and that and changed that. We good?"
"Well...it seems Dr Porsche has got to the Furher and has said that our design is basically cancer on tracks and has gotten authorisation for his pedal and helium powered tank instead..."
*Angry Germanic swearing*.

As an example the VK 30.01 was ordered in 39 but was first produced in limited prototypes in March 42 and it was basically a slightly larger Panzer IV with either the long 50mm or the short 75. At which point it was obsoleted by the introduction of the long 75mm gun and was seen as basically not being worth pressing forwards because it was just a slightly bigger Panzer IV with 40 - 80mm of armour, but it would lead to the Tiger.

https://imgur.com/K0lj7uS

There was various other VK designs, one which was basically a Germanic clone of the T-34 as a competitor to the Panther design but that lost out and so on and so forth.

The VK 36.01 was an evolution of the 30.01 and would have featured either an 88mm gun or a 75 and was more a half way house between what would become the Tiger and the later model Panzer IV's

 

[duckie]

I'm wondering a little why the Germans are going to get so panicky about the Valiant armour? The Matilda's OTL was even thicker, and they didn't really rush for more powerful guns

Speaking as an ex-soldier (conscripted in the 80's), it comes down to trust, trust that you have the tools and training to do your job. And if you look at your AT-guns and KNOW that they can't protect you, it will effect you, how you go about in your job. It goes downhill from their very, very fast...

 

[Astrodragon]

Perhaps because the Valiant is a far faster and more tactically and strategically mobile asset than the slow, plodding Matilda I/II and having near that level of protection on a comparatively fast and mobile chassis will be more intimidating than the Last March of the Ents that is a Matilda's advance.

Ah, but if its just used in a purely defensive role defending a port would they realise this?

 

[steamboy]

Ah, but if its just used in a purely defensive role defending a port would they realise this?

Yes if they can salvage an intact one and put it through its paces to go "Oh crap..this is what they're working on? Guuuuuuuuuuuuys!"

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

Yes if they can salvage an intact one and put it through its paces to go "Oh crap..this is what they're working on? Guuuuuuuuuuuuys!"

Except the crews should have orders to destroy any that are likely to be captured. A burned out or blown up wreck wouldn't do the Germans much good.

 

[Astrodragon]

RE Officer : "OK, chaps, we have to totally destroy these tanks to deny them to the enemy"
RE squaddies "Yippee!!"

 

[yulzari]

Speaking of naming army vehicles:

At one point in my negligible military service I was loaned out to a Regular infantry regiment for an exercise to cover for a watchkeeper off on a course. The Rupert in command was a bumptious little ..**! who thought that it would be a fun idea to name his 3 Landrovers Agincourt, Crecy and Poitiers. I was given another and they all were to be repainted. Lo, he got back Azincourt, Crecy, Poictiers; and Chatillon. He was so pleased. Clearly his posh school did not teach the history of the Hundred Years War. Or good manners for that matter. The Adjutant clearly had a better education and had to go out of sight to snigger and came back to ask me whose side I was on. I said the winning side......

 

[Derwit]

I think a lot of it depends on how long they can hold Calais. If holding Calais means halving the OTL number of ships sunk, then realistically, those few tanks were resources well spent.

In addition, even just those few Valiants will make a huge difference to the outcome of the war. If the Germans get to test the tanks out, they're likely to realise the L/43 is not going to cut it, so they'll do their damnedest to fit the L/60 in, which will have the advantage (for the Germans) that the T-34 won't seem so unstoppable.

OTL Calais was taken by Guderian's Panzer Corps after a short hard fight. This force had been going hard for two weeks and was at the end of its physical and material ability to continue the fight. These panzer divisions needed rest, resupply and servicing. There was sound reason to stop the panzers outside Dunkirk.

Here the ports garrison just got a lot tougher than the OTL vickers light tanks and the odd cruiser tank sent OTL. In street fighting my money's on the British infantry tanks causing lots of panzer and infantry casualties. Perhaps enough to force the Germans to withdraw a short distance, invest the port and wait for the main force of infantry and heavy artillery to arrive. This sounds good and takes a lot of the pressure of the Dunkirk perimeter during the early stages of the evacuation. however Calais as a port for a major evacuation isn't going to be in fit state after being fought over and the getting the full attention of the Luftwaffe. But every bomb dropped and shell thrown at Calais is one less at Dunkirk.

The Valiants are going to be a nasty surprise! I agree that the best course would be to keep them in th UK. However the Germans are going to give some thought to the unmentionable sea mammal soonish. Perhaps the quality of the British tanks might make them think the risk isn't worth contemplating. It would be an interesting butterfly if the BoB never happens or happens significantly different to OTL.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

In a defensive engagement in an environment like Calais the A11's Pom Pom's are going to be devastating.

 

[Derwit]

I think a population of approximately 8 million is more than big enough to justify it. They had a big enough population IOTL to build the Sentinel.

The biggest problem with using tanks in Malaya in 1941-42 is that you need to completely change the thinking of the British Army. They believed Malaya was covered in dense tropic rainforest (ie "Jungle") when in reality a lot of the country had been given over to Rubber plantations. Long avenues of open forest in other words. The British Army believed it was impossible to move off the roads as a consequence and the Japanese OTOH had no such fears. They would move up, encounter a British/Indian/AIF roadblock, move around it off the road and attack it from behind, scaring the defenders to retreat. The Japanese used tanks, to a limited extent but they were still basically road bound as the AIF proved in the Gemas ambush. What was needed to defend Malaya was trained infantry. The Indians were barely even half trained. The British were little better.

The big difference between Malaya and Burma in 1942 was that Slim had an Armoured Brigade. He was able to use the tanks to break through the Japanese at their road blocks when they appeared behind his force, which allowed the British to continue to retreat in good order.

ITTL there is the possibility of some older tanks (looking sideways at the Matilda 2's) being deployed to protect Singapore which would likely mean the port would only fall once the surrounding islands of Java and Sumatra are in Japanese hands.

Of course better infantry would make a big difference. I can see ITTL more Matilda's being sent out to East Africa than OTL. This is due to the Valiants being better suited to the faster fighting in the western desert. More tanks in East Africa shortens the campaigns there significantly which would allow more veteran forces (with their tanks) to be deployed to the far east in the autumn and winter of 1941.

These two possibilities combined might mean that the Malay Barrier holds at worst for longer and at best indefinitely.

 

[marathag]

addition, even just those few Valiants will make a huge difference to the outcome of the war. If the Germans get to test the tanks out, they're likely to realise the L/43 is not going to cut it, so they'll do their damnedest to fit the L/60 in, which will have the advantage (for the Germans) that the T-34 won't seem so unstoppable.

Though OTL, the US ignored Tigers in Tunisia and Panthers in Italy and kept the same 75mm for the invasion of France, sidelined the 76mm armed version of the M4A3 till Cobra.
Germans will still get the Tiger at roughly the same time and quantity, might see something like the Panther, like the various V30 designs sooner, from what goes on in North Africa

 

[marathag]

RE Officer : "OK, chaps, we have to totally destroy these tanks to deny them to the enemy"
RE squaddies "Yippee!!"

BEF left so much undamaged armor behind OTL,though.
Little of the 'fun' tricks like running the engines without oil and a wide open throttle, or firing the guns with the fluid drained from the recoil system to wreck them.

 

[duckie]

BEF left so much undamaged armor behind OTL,though.
Little of the 'fun' tricks like running the engines without oil and a wide open throttle, or firing the guns with the fluid drained from the recoil system to wreck them.

For these 3 "specials", I think they would be more ambitious, like packing the hull full with HE shells and/or take some welding torches and get creative...LOL