Sir John Valentine Carden survives.

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marathag

Banned
He had bet a lot of investment on Germany winning.
Ford's Cologne plant was pint-sized compared to the Tractor Works in Leningrad, or the Truck and Auto Plant outside Moscow that Henry was involved with Stalin in creating.

Henry tried to put Ford plants near everywhere, including the UK , Dagenham(then the largest auto plant in all Europe), and Ford V8s powered a lot of vehicles, Civilian and Military
The only country to actively fight against Henry Ford, was the Moose in Italy
 
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marathag

Banned
Ford really wasn't Anglophobic, he was still pissed over not being able to sell his latest Irish built Ford Tractors in Great Britain, but allowed US built tractors to be sold.
Ford still later financed the Trafford Park Shadow Factory at Manchester that made RR Merlins
 
Since the subject of Canadian Valiants has come up, I wonder if the plant (I assume they'd use Montreal Locomotive Works as in OTL) would try for single-piece cast turrets and/or hulls, maybe cast+welding. It'd certainly be easy to tell Canadian Val's from British, all-welded ones that way.
 
Hm, how would a cast hull compare to a welded one? Cheaper/pricier? Lighter/heavier?
Heavier - cast armour is a bit less strong due to the effect of working the steel, so needs to be a bit thicker for the same protection.
Cheaper is really hard to work out. Casting is cheaper, but then you have to factor in the effort of finishing the castings before you put them together. It seems mainly to be which method you have the most spare industrial capacity for that determines which method was used. Or you can do like the British did in the late war, and have a mix of casting and welded - that has the advantage the castings are simpler and need a lot less finishing. But when it comes down to it, both methods have advantages and disadvantages.
 
Allan, this last post is a very creative and original use of unpopular engines! Though Meadows might have too much work here, the DAV is certainly a good option for lightweight vehicles (it was used in the British version of the LVTP 4, incidentally). I don't think that the A9/10 are going to be used as tanks with that engine at this point, but since they functionally rely on the same suspension and similar hull to the OTL Valentine, a version with a proper engine would be very appealing for support vehicles such as SPGs or light SPAAGs. Maybe we will get to see the SP Archer with a 280HP engine!
Thanks, and that was my thinking. The A9 and A10, which are actually much more like one another ITTL are reasonable hull/suspension units. If they'd had the DAV in 1938 with 280hp, they'd would have been pretty good tanks. But yes, for the family of AFVs they are a reasonable basis for building on. The Valentine/Bishop combo was an unsuccessful mash up, but the ATL A9/A10 are a bit longer and wider than the OTL Valentine, giving a bit more space for doing things better.
As for the Peregrine, while it will take some work to fix and would be less powerful than the Merlin in a tank version, it might still succeed simply because it's more practical to use than the Air Ministry's Merlin, and because it will be further along in development. The Peregrine should be quite a bit smaller than the Merlin in tank use. With a supercharger, the aircraft version is 38cm shorter and 9cm narrower. Length should be especially important as the Meteor Cruisers were quite long. The engine is about 30% lighter. With a turret closer to the middle of the tank with a shorter engine bay, gun stability should be greater. I calculated that a minimum of 470HP could be expected (this is also consistent with the fact that a Kestrel would do 475hp on pool petrol). This might not be so bad in comparison to a rationalized petrol Lion. However, if one compares it to the 1030hp Merlin III the Meteor was based on, the tank version of the Peregrine I would do 515hp, and this is the least advanced Peregrine! It might also be easier to deal with in terms of cooling. At the very least the fact that work on the tank Peregrine starts in December 1939 instead of late 1940/early 41 for the Meteor should be very important. Starting a year earlier may allow a suitable replacement for the Lion/Liberty to be available in time for a future Valiant or Cruiser tank, instead of the Meteor being late for the A27.
Peregrine was still a 1300 cubic inch V12, and only made 900hp with 9 pounds of supercharger boost. Take that away, its a smaller motor against a 1460 cubic inch NA Lion.
The 1650 cubic inch NA Meteor was a 600hp motor in ground trim, so the Peregrine would be a 475hp engine at best. The Sea Lion as a 500hp NA engine.
Peregrine, like all UK aero engines, needs plenty of 'fitters' in manufacturing. All that said, its a viable option, but there's not much Peregrine specific tooling at RR that is freed up. If that is chosen, will need a new production line with new tooling
Remember this is a conversation in late 1939 about a possibility, whether or not the Ministry of Supply and the Air Ministry go for it is another matter. I'm using Carden at this point to explore options for what comes after the Lion. But it is entirely possible if Meadows can make an easier to manufacture petrol (Sea)Lion, which provides more horsepower than the adapted Peregrine, that becomes a dead end. But the groundwork is laid, which may mean that when the Cromwell team get involved, they'll already have something to work from.
Isn't the Peregrine 21.2L? Less displacement than the Lion I believe. IMO I don't necessarily view the Peregrine as more powerful than the Lion, but rather as an alternative in production.
More a possible successor than alternative, but the Peregrine is a different generation from the Lion and so might be worth looking at to see if it would work.
In addition, the A22 specification here is likely to look more like an A20 for another company.
That's entirely possible, we'll need to see what happens in May/June 1940.
The GAA V8 won't be a thing until 1942, not without help. My thought was, if Vickers can get the Americans to make the V8 in 1940, ostensibly for the Canadian-built Valiants, it will be available somewhat earlier. As to the engine, I will point out again that the Ford V12 is available, and has the potential to hit at least 770 hp
At this point in 1939 the "British Supply Board in Canada and the United States" office in Ottawa was just opened on 7 November. Next year, after the fall of France before we really look to the Americas for just about everything.
So couple things, we are less than 2 years away from the OTL work on the Meteor starting. OTL work on it started in 41 with no prior step, It was Merlin to tank's right from the off. At the time it was a much more unknown prospect and Leyland and Rolls Royce were sort of ( I know Liberty) stepping into the unknown with the whole aero engine to tank engine thing. TTL Britain has far more experience of the conversion being made so I would infer that the idea may have made it's way to Rolls already and they may have had some thought's on it, even if little else. In addition rolls was already looking to scrap the Peregrine in mid 39 (more on this in a moment) so any thought's they would have had, I conclude, would be centred on the Merlin. Let's face it, in timeline you are possibly as little as 12 months or possibly 18 months away from the initial genesis of the Meteor in OTL. The idea that things may get brought forward 12-18 months ITTL is not absurd or even IMHO unlikely. The first engines Rolls made were in 41 so it can't have been that late on in the year.
Again this is kind of what was in the back of my head, and the reason that Carden doesn't ask for Merlins is that at this point the Air Ministry is just going to blow him off. He'd already talked to RR about the Kestrel which the Peregrine was a development of.
What kind of trouble are they having. Is it the we're focusing everything on the Sabre kind of problem so everything else is getting abandoned or is it the we're spreading ourselves too thin kind of problem so everything is running behind. If it's the latter you may have made some pretty massive butterflies, you have possibly just cancelled the Westland Whirlwind, Hawker Tornado, Hawker Typhoon and Hawker Tempest. At least sort of for the Hawker Aircraft, allow me to explain.
In my head the problems that Napier are having is that the Air Ministry (AM) are breathing down their necks to get the Sabre asap. If Napier are playing around with the Ministry of Supply (MoS) to make tank engines, then the AM will be on them like a ton of bricks. Just as RR are being pressured to get the Merlin and Griffon working and improving, then Napier is getting the same pressure, so put all your efforts into the AM work, that means nothing else for 'sidelines'.
OTL as early as Mid 39 Rolls Royce wanted to cancel the Peregrine (see said it would come back later) and Vulture in order to allow the company to focus all development on the Merlin and Griffon. Now if the Sabre is struggling TTL and their looks a good possibility that the engine is going to be severely delayed, you have the possibility of the Air Ministry looking at the expected timeframe and deciding to cut their losses. ...Law of unintended consequences and all that. By getting Napier splitting focus a bit away from the Sabre yo could well have gotten it cancelled and started a chain reaction of events. Fun this AH stuff aint it.
As I said that wasn't the point, the Sabre's priority means Napier can't help as much with the (Sea)Lion. It was mentioned before that Ricardo's help with the diesel Lion might have sleeve valve help for the Sabre, though as I understand it, it was more a manufacturing problem than design problem.
Just one of the possible butterflies. One last thing on the Peregrine. Because Rolls want it gone I cant see them wanting to focus any time on it whatsoever. OTL they were involved in the Meteor initially so will likely want to be here as well. That is another potential mark in favor of Merlin to Meteor.
The RR team that worked on the Meteor were the car design team led by Roy Robotham and then with Harry Moyses from Birmingham Railway. It wasn't Hives et al who made the Meteor happen, because they were all too caught up in the AM web. Without cars to build RR had a second team sitting on their hands. So when Moyses comes along (with Carden preempting this) then we can have a Meteor kicking off earlier, because the Liberty and Lion prove the need for an aero-engine, so what is hanging about that we can look at for a need in late 41/early 42.

I think I have already made a pretty good case that the Crusader of TTL should not be the Crusader of OTL. Again law of unintended consequences. You have upset the applecart, they wont fall in the same place they did OTL.
Yes and no. The A15 specification that Nuffield are working on in 1939 sees the light of day in late 40. There will be changes, not least in what the Valiant offers, but the fundamentals of the hull, engine, suspension etc won't change, maybe just the turret/turret ring for a bigger gun, if the Christie suspension allows for a bigger turret ring.
Does your heart sink a bit when you see that I made another large post?
Not at all. Thanks for the interest and keeping me real.
Also please allan write a update for the supply ministry asking for help to set up a valiant plant in canada and australia since it is very well thought off as a project i think? Or are u waiting for prototypes and stuff first before doing this?
As mentioned above the Ottawa office just opened in November 1939, they haven't opened the office in New York yet. At this point in 1939 Canada wasn't expected to have the industrial capacity for tanks. Once the fall of France happened, suddenly that was looked at again. I can't drive it differently here.
And i do love that ur using a9/a10 hulls for everything else , maybe have the subsidary firms build those or other firms so that have something to do and vickers doesnt get distracted.
At this point both OTL and TTL Vickers only made 50 A9s and 10 A10s. You can expect Metro-Cammell and BirminghamRC&WC who are more heavily involved in the A10 to be doing something about this, should the War Office decide that it does want a family of AFVs. Which isn't certain.

Thanks again everybody for your contributions.
Allan
 
I was thinking about SPAAG's for the British. Pre-war there was a number of designs, a Mark VI light tank with I think quad MG's in the turret, and later there was a Crusader with dual 20mm's in its turret. But the WAllies never really went in for SPAAG's as the Germans did as the Allies tended to be the ones with air control if not outright supremacy and so SPAAG's were probably seen as a bit of a waste, or around 1939 - 1940, an extravagance that couldn't be afforded.

In the early war period you're not going to get any 20mm cannons because if the tank folks so much look at them the RAF and RN will start snarling and getting all food-guarding instinctive with regards to the guns. The 40mm is too big to go on anything save a Moblewagon type set up

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And the British army is already starting to use them but the RN will have first call on any 40mm bofors mounts. So any guns are going to be hard to come by, and this leaves you with MGs which are only of any use at low altitude

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So quad .303's or dual Vickers .50's are probably going to be the order of the day for any AA vehicle, so really any real AA work is either going to need to be done by towed AA guns such as the 40mm bofors and 3.7-inch heavy AA, or the brylcream boys.
 
The RR Chassis Division (That is the Motor car building part of the business)took over the old Clan Foundry at the southern end of Belper, Derbyshire, on the A6 in 1939 as a dispersal site. RR also had nine other dispersal buildings in Belper for various design and administrative departments of the Aero engine division. So it is quite possible for Carden to contact W A Robotham who led the Chassis Division with the idea of producing an engine base on the Merlin engineering for use in an AFV.
From the OTL history books I have it would appear that Robotham and his team gave serous consideration to adapting the RR Kestrel as an AFV engine but concluded that it's development potential was insufficient for the horse power they considered would be required. Therefore they turned to the larger Merlin as a donor design. The Clan Foundry team went from concept to a working test engine in five months. So if Carden sets the ball rolling by August 1939 a test engine could be ready by January 1940. It is also worth noting that one reason the RR team chose the merlin was that it would be a drop in alternative size wise for the Liberty engine.
 
I was thinking about SPAAG's for the British. Pre-war there was a number of designs, a Mark VI light tank with I think quad MG's in the turret, and later there was a Crusader with dual 20mm's in its turret. But the WAllies never really went in for SPAAG's as the Germans did as the Allies tended to be the ones with air control if not outright supremacy and so SPAAG's were probably seen as a bit of a waste, or around 1939 - 1940, an extravagance that couldn't be afforded.

In the early war period you're not going to get any 20mm cannons because if the tank folks so much look at them the RAF and RN will start snarling and getting all food-guarding instinctive with regards to the guns. The 40mm is too big to go on anything save a Moblewagon type set up

211de6a0a22cd5b319d1cdd66b8b8e4a.jpg
36e4d4bf1ac65ae97a0bed7b0b747071.jpg


And the British army is already starting to use them but the RN will have first call on any 40mm bofors mounts. So any guns are going to be hard to come by, and this leaves you with MGs which are only of any use at low altitude

acb4341fff7e8f918066a887549dcf90.jpg


So quad .303's or dual Vickers .50's are probably going to be the order of the day for any AA vehicle, so really any real AA work is either going to need to be done by towed AA guns such as the 40mm bofors and 3.7-inch heavy AA, or the brylcream boys.
Until there are surplus 20mm guns available the best bet would be the 15mm BESA, which is otherwise something of an orphan. Too small for a tank/armoured car gun and too heavy for the infantry to easily move about.

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Perhaps but IIRC SPAAGs were not used to support an advance, they were to defend AA batteries, artillery guns etc, tanks and infantry on the attack will still be vulnerable.
 
Until there are surplus 20mm guns available the best bet would be the 15mm BESA, which is otherwise something of an orphan. Too small for a tank/armoured car gun and too heavy for the infantry to easily move about.

View attachment 606061
I think that any infantry formation would love to have a couple of these babies in an overwacht position when they have to move forward... ( it is always nice to have something with a bigger reach at your inmidiate disposal..)
 
Yes and no. The A15 specification that Nuffield are working on in 1939 sees the light of day in late 40. There will be changes, not least in what the Valiant offers, but the fundamentals of the hull, engine, suspension etc won't change, maybe just the turret/turret ring for a bigger gun, if the Christie suspension allows for a bigger turret ring.

Not at all. Thanks for the interest and keeping me real.

Thats the level of change I was thinking of. Probably a bit more armour to around 60mm, a bigger turret ring to fit a 6pdr but still Christie suspension and a Liberty. The sub turret won't be a thing more than likely because you butterflied them from the A9. That means you could have a bow MG or nothing.

Basically I'm saying you likely start with a MK3 crusader but with a bigger turret ring and possibly the 6pdr from the start or a quick upgrade to it.

Its a crusader, just not as we know it
 
12 December 1939. Wanquetin, near Arras, France.
12 December 1939. Wanquetin, near Arras, France.

The General Headquarters of the BEF had had a couple of days to relax now that the visit of His Majesty King George VI had passed off successfully. The King had been very gracious and all the units he had visited had been most pleased and boosted by his presence and interest. The problem now was that there was something of a backlog of work that had been shelved to allow Lord Gort and his senior officers to attend the King. So it was that Brigadier Justice Tilly found himself having pre-dinner drinks with the Commander-in-Chief, Lord Gort, the Chief of the General Staff, Lt General Henry Pownall, and Deputy Chief of Staff Major-General Philip Neame. Tilly was replacing Frederick Hotblack who’d been given command of 2nd Armoured Division. Gort was using the opportunity to thank Hotblack for his contributions to the build up of the armoured forces of the BEF as Brigadier Armoured Fighting Vehicles (BAFV).

This role had been created in September as part of the General Headquarters (Armoured Fighting Vehicles) which had replaced the pre-War AFV Branch. The purpose of GHQ(AFV) was to represent the Director of Mechanisation (Major-General Alexander Davidson) in the field. The organisation performed a technical liaison role between the Ministry of Supply, the War Office and the BEF in France. Originally Hotblack’s team had been based in at the Staff College at Camberley, but had arrived at Le Mans in France on 14 September.

Hotblack had been thinking deeply about how best to manage the Armoured Fighting Vehicles in the BEF and had submitted a paper on the subject to Gort’s General Staff in November. The situation was still fluid as the numbers of AFVs in France were still somewhat limited. There was the 4th Battalion RTR had its A11s, increasingly becoming known by their Vickers’ codename of Matilda. The King had spent a morning with the tanks and had been impressed by them, wondering if the pompom guns might have a secondary role of shooting down aircraft! 4RTR was the basis for the 1st Army Tank Brigade, with two more Battalions of the Royal Tank Regiment expected to join them before the end of spring 1940.

The other AFVs in France were the Light Tanks that made up the Divisional cavalry regiments (1st Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, 1st East Riding Yeomanry, 5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards, 15th/19th The King's Royal Hussars, 4th/7th Royal Dragoon Guards; 12th Royal Lancers; 13th/18th Royal Hussars; 1st Lothians and Border Yeomanry). All of these cavalry regiments were being used currently in their traditional role of providing the reconnaissance element for each infantry Division. This meant that each Regiments were operating more or less independently of each other and their parent Royal Armoured Corps.

In his paper Hotblack had argued for the formation of an “Armoured Group” with a commander and full headquarters to direct all aspects of the BEF’s AFVs, as the current role of the AFV Branch was advisory only. Having a sound organisation set up now, before the numbers and various types of tanks starting arriving, which would give proper ‘command and control if last minute improvisations are to be avoided.’ ‘In the absence of a higher organisation the BEF will be at a dual disadvantage. It will be attempting to use a weapon, made clumsy by lack of adequate means to control it, against a similar weapon in the hands of an enemy who has spared neither money nor pains to provide an efficient and flexible system of command.’ Here he was referencing the German panzergruppen, army sized commands for the amoured forces which would generally encompass two or four corps, each corps consisting of two to four divisions.

Hotblack’s proposal was that the Headquarters of the British Armoured Group would have a commanding Major-General, with a full staff, and a technical establishment of an Assistant Director of Mechanisation with his staff. This would be ‘simple, flexible, and therefore reduces the risk of hasty improvisation to a minimum.’ As 1st Armoured Division was expected to join the BEF sometime in May 1940, it would come under the command of the Armoured Group along with the 1st Army Tank Brigade and all the divisional cavalry regiments, which would be grouped into two Light Armoured Reconnaissance Brigades.

‘Provision was made in peace for four Armoured Divisions, one of which is in Egypt. Of the remaining three, one should join the BEF in the spring of 1940, and another in autumn of 1940, and the third some six to nine months later. These divisions are most convincingly grouped together in an Armoured Corps as was the original intention when it was decided to divide the old ‘Mobile Division’ into smaller Armoured Divisions. Their role requires them to operate against hostile Armoured Divisions and may well take them far from the Infantry Tank formations.’

Hotblack argued that once his new command, 2nd Armoured Division arrived in the autumn of 1940, it should join 1st Armoured Division in the 1st Armoured Corps. As the 1st Army Tank Brigade were joined by the proposed two follow-on tank brigades of infantry tanks this would become the 1st Army Tank Division, consisting of three brigades. The Light Tanks of the two Reconnaissance Brigades would eventually be joined by a third brigade, preferably equipped with cruisers rather than light tanks, which would then be another Division of AFVs.

What Hotblack had seen when visiting with the French army was that their Divisions Légères Mécaniques (DLM), the nearest equivalent of the British Armoured Division, were grouped together in a Corps de Cavalerie. It was interesting that their heavy tanks in the Divisions Cuirassées de Reserve (DCr), like the British infantry tanks in the Army Tank Brigade, remained independent. He noted that ‘At HQs of Armies and higher formations there is an Infantry Tank Commander and a small staff whether tanks have been allotted to the formation or not. In addition, there are a number of HQs of ‘Tank Groups’ which can be allotted to any formation in the Army to command whatever tank units are made available to work with that formation. These ‘Tank Groups’ commanders and staffs are provided on the scale of one Group to two battalions though it will often occur that one Group may have three or more battalions while other Groups only have one.’ As such Hotblack argued that if the BEF didn’t have a higher organisation for tanks, then ‘it will complicate the work of cooperation with its allies in as much as the ally will find no organisation comparable with its own which to establish and maintain liaison.’

Gort and his staff had read the paper and weren’t keen on recommending to the War Office the formation of a British Armoured Group. With the opportunity to speak directly to Hotblack, and his successor Tilly together, Pownall told them that the General Staff had agreed to the AFV Branch being stiffened up with more staff and given control of all AFVs in the GHQ reserve. Hotblack recognised the compromise, he could make the argument to the War Office from his new role as commander of 2nd Armoured Division in due course. What he did want from Gort was that the GHQ AFV reserves needed a specific commander, just as the French did. The reason he explained was that Tilly, or whoever was made commander, needed to remain at GHQ at Wanquetin, not at Le Mans where he was currently based. The bulk of the reserve AFVs would normally be far away from GHQ, either training or conducting firing practice. An overall commander needed to be at the centre of decision making so that he would be in a position to make sure the AFVs were where they needed to be when they were needed. Gort agreed and welcomed Tilly to his staff.

It had taken a great deal of work and negotiations with the French, but the British had finally been given two training areas for tanks. The first was in the vicinity of Pacy-sur-Eure in Normandy (110 miles southwest of GHQ at Wenquetin (Arras)). The firing range was at Meuvaines on the Normandy coast just north of Bayeux, another 110 miles west of Pacy-sur-Eure. It became clear that the distance to Meuvaines meant that it was more practical to have a number of tanks from the normal reserves based there to save the first line vehicles from having to be moved in and out. It would be easier just to move the crews to the firing range and let them use the vehicles there for practice. The arrival of the Vulcan A12 and Cruiser tanks with the 2-pdr would complicate matters as these tanks were so rare that there weren’t enough to have a ‘normal reserve’.

Tilly said that he really wanted another training area in central France, preferably with uncultivated land so that the Cruisers when they arrived could really be put through their paces. If it was sufficiently remote then experiments with the new types of tanks, the Vickers Valiant and the proposed A20, could be done away from prying eyes. General Pownall smiled, there were a lot of things the BEF wanted from the French, he didn’t quite say ‘don’t hold your breath’ but Tilly was enlightened about how hard it had been to get the two current training areas.

While Tilly had only been in France for a few days he and Hotblack had visited these training areas, and when Gort asked him what he saw as his priorities, Tilly argued that the Royal Armoured Corps Base Depot, with its workshops, stores and AFV recovery sections should be based at Pacy-sur-Eure. The plan was that the Royal Army Ordnance Corps (RAOC) intended to build its main Base Ordnance Depot (BOD) at Rennes in Brittany, 200 miles away from Pacy-sur-Eure. A second Base Ordnance Depot would be created at Le Harve, 75 miles northwest of Pacy-sur-Eure, but on the other side of the river Seine, which might cause problems with the railway bottleneck at Rouen. As the RAOC was responsible for the supply and repair for weapons, armoured vehicles and other military equipment and ammunition, having the AFV element of the RAOC centered on the primary RAC base made more sense, as otherwise tanks would have to be shifted back and forth from their forward positions to the RAC Base Depot by rail, then onwards to either Rennes or Le Harve for significant repairs, and those judged Beyond Local Repair, would then be shipped back to Britain.

Furthermore, Tilly also expressed the hope that if Pacy-sur-Eure was to be the main RAC depot, then due to its distance from the area that the BEF might be operating in, then the RAOC recovery sections should be under command of whoever was commanding the AFV reserves. Tilly was working with the thought that tanks would operate in a similar way to what had happed in the Great War. Then tanks were expected to take to the field intermittently for specific battles rather than be continually in the field for the entirety of the campaign. He said, “Over any considerable period of time the employment of Armoured Formations in active operations will be the exception rather than the rule. When employed, the duration of the period will be relatively short, and the losses relatively heavy, resulting in periods of very heavy and comparatively light commitments in maintenance and repair.” He went on, “The armoured formation will either be far behind the line training and re-fitting, or in reserve closer to it but still undisturbed and free from casualties, or else in action. It will never be ‘in the line’ in the sense that an infantry division is. Nor is it to be supposed that our armoured formations will be employed only on the British sector of the front. The creation of the necessary mass of tanks may send them far afield in the French sector.” The RAOC recovery sections would be needed to collected broken down or destroyed tanks, and then get them to a railhead where they could be shipped back to the BOD to be repaired and re-fitted.

Gort and Pownall said they were happy to pass on his thoughts the War Office for deliberation with the Principle Ordnance Mechanical Engineer (POME), after all if RAOC units were to come under the specific command of a Royal Armoured Corps chain of command it would be up to Major-General Albert Valon (POME) to make that decision. Gort declared that was enough business for the moment, and that the dinner to congratulate Hotblack on his promotion and wish him well would be getting cold.

NB, all this is as mostly OTL, the direct quotes are as they appear in A13 Mk I & Mk II Cruiser Tanks A Technical History by P M Knight, Black Prince Publications, 2019, from which much of this update is drawn. I have pushed a few things around timewise, though most it happened in December 1939 just not all in the one meeting.
 
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Oh, there aren't going to be any armored divisions going to France after the summer of 1940--but, then again, the commanders don't know that in-story...

Good update, BTW...
 
Thanks for answering the canada question and a very good update in offering insight into british doctorine before battle of france on the tank side.

And as i said that fighting vechicles based on a9/10 with engine u mentioned for late 40/41 hopefully seems like a very good idea and be should something to do for the main protagnist outside his valiant work for now . As u said and i mentioned myself those vechicles should be mainly built by the subsidaries or even other firms so they have something to do and not to distract Vickers from as much possible Valiant production.

After doing some research on tank production since its a topic i havent ever researched and this was the result for otl :

About 3k matildas were manufactured in otl , with about 1k going to the soviets and about 400ish to the australians.
100 of each cruiser mark 1 and 2 - wich are a9/a10 here i think?
600 ish mark 4-s -
1700 coveanters wich were a failure of sorts and only used by the TA mainly. And have been canceled in the timeline , they can be used build more crusaders and valiants here.
5300 crusaders , wich were mainly used in north africa . Probably not as many in the timeline altough the crusader that come out will be better i hope.
8300 valentines - wich are the valiant equilevant asfar i can tell right , about 1400 were produced in canada with the proposed ford engine and went to the soviets.
5700 churchills - A upcoming infantry tank design is needed for the timeline but the need for them is still there to be honest.
950 centuars - Decent tank but a intemediary design , hopefully skippable.
3100 cromwells - Same as with centuars -
2100 fireflys - Modified shermans with t 17 pounders , dont see a massive need for it hopefully but might still be retained since they were cheap and not homemade.
200 challengers - canceled in favor of firelfys and comets asfar i can tell , could be a non Vickers design for the post valiant generation?
1200 comets - Rather good tanks and hoping for this or its equilevant being the successor tank to the valiant in quest ?
6 centurions - Probably the most succesful tank in history a shame they didnt fight in ww2-

And im not counting lighter tanks and stuff like that so that makes over 30000 tanks produced by brits during the war .

Would love to go to centurions but a intermediate step is needed and the comet/challenger is it to be honest and hopefully they will be available in some numbers after d-day invasions to stop the powercreep a little.
So the main 7 tanks of the war for the brits in the timeline will be Matildas, Valiants , Improved Crusader , Improved Chruchill. Valiant successor loosely based on comet by Vickers , Challaenger equilevant for non Vickers firms and finally the logical conclusion off all british tank design - THE CENTURION . With a chance of fireflys i guess since they were imports outside the gun i think for the 8th ?

Since coveanters are already canceled , im thinking centuars and cromwells are canceable and the same for mark 4-s i guess and instead produce abit more a9/10-s here wich might also count but im more talking about the future of the topic ?
 
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Hm, wouldn't that put a fairly reasonable pool of tanks outside the area the Germans first advance into?

As to production numbers, adding the OTL Covenanter to OTL Valentine production you're looking at 10,000 vehicles, but since you're likely to take a bite out of Crusader and Churchill numbers too, that's more, plus the dedicated factory that you're getting...

As to the Valiant follow-up, something in the region of the OTL Comet, but earlier (ie, ready in time for D-Day), that's going to help a lot.
 
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If thats true and its diffrent than otl then there might be another battle of arras situation . And again might be reason for germans to wait for their logistics to catch up and make evacuation abit easier .
 
So if I understand this correctly the British are trying to group their armoured forces together rather than doing what the French did and spread out their armoured strength, what the UK's doing is making a small Panzer brigade. The problem is that there's still the lack of combined arms, and all these tanks together will still need infantry.
 
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