Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

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focus9912

Ramp-Rat said:
Sir while I desperately try to remember where I saw the information that the local CIA operative was involved with the Communists in Malaya, it might have been the book War of the Running Dogs. I would like to point out a mistake in your post, officially there wasn’t an independence war in Malaya, it was always referred to as the Malayan Incident. This was for insurance reasons, as the various insurance companies didn’t have to pay out for war damage, but did if the damage was due to an incident. In the same way, the British administration noted that if you referred to the locals as freedom fighters, independence fighters or guerrillas, they tended to win. And so they were always referred to as CT’s, Communist Terrorists, the British having far more experience in conducting COIN operations than the Americans, had a wealth of experience to draw upon.

RR.
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Oh okay...sorry, what I meant the war I meant during 1942-1945, when the British helps the MPAJA (which are unfortunately mostly communist) fights a guerilla warfare. And unfortunately when the war ends some of the soldiers decided to keep the weapons supplied by the British, with the addition of the weapon that were taken from the Japanese, which in turn makes up most of the (Malaya Communist Party) weapons supplies during the subsequent emergency. The fact that the CIA does actually helps the Communist in Malaya (altough the other options are the pro-British Alliance (and the much smaller Parti Negara), the just growing (Islamist) PAS, the Labour Party which are irrelevant outside of urban areas, so probably understandable) post-1948 is a revelation for me. Then again, there are multiple facet of post-war Malaysia (not to mention the colonial times) that never get even a mention in the History textbook for politically convenient purposes.


It is a bit weird that this anecdote in regards to the CIA rarely, if ever mentioned by Malaysian sourced studies in regards to the Emergency, and did not mentioned by even the most anti-American politicians (which are plentiful and has a large market/appeal , as I who lives in a constituency that recently make a suprise vote for PAS (P.044 btw)could tell you.)

P/s: The fact that British calling this an insurgency is a well known fact among us Malaysians (it is mentioned in the History text book) and I pretty sure remember that my teacher mentioned this when they decided to show Bukit Kepong during the last week of the school year, around a decade ago.
 
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vetinari

I am not sure why the CIA is being mentioned. It was not established until 1947 as a separate entity in within the executive branch. The OSS was it's wartime ancestor which was disbanded in 1945.
 
Ramp-Rat

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
focus9912 said:
Oh okay...sorry, what I meant the war I meant during 1942-1945, when the British helps the MPAJA (which are unfortunately mostly communist) fights a guerilla warfare. And unfortunately when the war ends some of the soldiers decided to keep the weapons supplied by the British, with the addition of the weapon that were taken from the Japanese, which in turn makes up most of the (Malaya Communist Party) weapons supplies during the subsequent emergency. The fact that the CIA does actually helps the Communist in Malaya (altough the other options are the pro-British Alliance (and the much smaller Parti Negara), the just growing (Islamist) PAS, the Labour Party which are irrelevant outside of urban areas, so probably understandable) post-1948 is a revelation for me. Then again, there are multiple facet of post-war Malaysia (not to mention the colonial times) that never get even a mention in the History textbook for politically convenient purposes.


It is a bit weird that this anecdote in regards to the CIA rarely, if ever mentioned by Malaysian sourced studies in regards to the Emergency, and did not mentioned by even the most anti-American politicians (which are plentiful and has a large market/appeal , as I who lives in a constituency that recently make a suprise vote for PAS (P.044 btw)could tell you.)

P/s: The fact that British calling this an insurgency is a well known fact among us Malaysians (it is mentioned in the History text book) and I pretty sure remember that my teacher mentioned this when they decided to show Bukit Kepong during the last week of the school year, around a decade ago.
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Young sir, welcome to this forum, it is always a pleasure to see a far more international membership, rather than the hard core of Anglos. As another has pointed out the CIA wasn’t established until 1947, so any American involvement in the resistance movement during WWII, would have been the OSS. Like I said I am desperately racking my brain to remember where I read of the CIA involvement in the Malayan Emergency, and if I do remember I will send you a message directly. In regards to said Malayan Emergency, being very much older than you, I as a young man worked with a lot of older men who had been involved in this conflict, also a number of the post war British predominately decolonisation conflicts. Such as Kenya, Cyprus, Aden, and while living in New Zealand, Vietnam. Plus the ongoing at the time Troubles in Northern Ireland, and in my last few years men who had been deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan. I even worked for a time with an Israeli who had done his time on the Bar Lev line. As to what is taught in I presume are Malaysian schools about the Emergence, I wouldn’t have a clue, however I would be interested in how Malaya teaching differs from Singaporean on this subject. After all the overwhelming majority of the CT’s were ethnically Chinese, as apposed to the majority of the police and various auxiliary military units. And the first president of Singapore started out as a Communist himself though not as far as I know ever a member of the armed wing of the party.

RR.
 

foresterab

Ramp-Rat said:
Sir I respectfully disagree with you, while I am not advocating a major campaign by special forces in Southern China, I am of the opinion that the return on investment of such a campaign would be large. For the investment of a few tens of people, and a minimum of equipment, supplies and financing, the Japanese will be forced to expend significant resources themselves. They have to ether pay mercenaries, or deploy their own troops to retain any form of control over the region. Thus in the end the deployment of a few, will require the Japanese to deploy thousands of their own troops, all of which would be better used elsewhere.

RR.
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Ironically at the Remembrance Day ceremony this year I was chatting with a long time family friend who was originally born in what was British India. Every year he attends and lays a wreath on behalf of his father/uncles who served.

One of these uncles was a member of the Operation Jaywick raid and was killed on the second raid. A small force of men who had big implications on Japanese troop movements
en.m.wikipedia.org

Operation Jaywick - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

I believe this is the sort of raiding you are mentioning Ramp-Rat

foresterab
 

vetinari

Speaking of the Jaywick raid, if you have ever seen the old Australian Navy TV series, "Patrol Boat" you can actually see the Jaywick in one episode, posing as a Indochinese Refugee boat. It was until the 1980s still in operation in the RAN.
 
2 February 1942. Taiping, Malaya.
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    • allanpcameron

    Donor
    2 February 1942. Taiping, Malaya.

    Lt-Col Denzil MacArthur-Onslow held a brief Officers Call with the Squadron Commanders of 8 Division’s Cavalry Regiment. (Major John Abbott (2 i/c, OC HQ Squadron), Major Lindsay Miell (OC A Squadron), Major John Holden (OC C Squadron), Captain Tom Mills (OC B Squadron)).

    These had been together during the fighting in North Africa (the capture of Bardia and Tobruk among their exploits), now as 8 Division’s cavalry instead of 6 Division, they were again at the forefront of the action. Working from the crossing over the Perak River, the cavalry had been at the forefront with 22 Brigade. Each squadron consisted of a Squadron HQ and three Troops, each made up of four Stuart Light tanks. The fourth Troop in each Squadron was made up of universal carriers, often equipped with Browning machine guns taken from the extra that the tanks had come equipped with.

    MacArthur-Onslow listened as each of the Squadron commanders related their current state and position. Each of the squadrons had taken a few casualties, especially supporting the infantry as they took control of Taiping. A few tanks had also been left behind on the route with breakdowns. The complexity of the radial engine on the Stuart meant that not all the crews and mechanics were capable of properly maintaining or fixing something if it broke.

    Miell’s A Squadron was forming a blocking force, with 2/19 Battalion, to the north of the town, and sending out patrols to give warning of Japanese reinforcements or supplies coming south. Mill’s B Squadron were protecting the line of march, trying to make sure that the route 8 Division was taking wasn’t being cut off or otherwise disrupted. Holden’s C Squadron were working with 2/20 Battalion moving towards Kuala Kangsar, trying to put a cork in the bottle of the Japanese troops facing 18th Division. 8 Division’s other two Infantry Brigades (16 and 27 Brigade) were deploying to seal the pocket tightly.

    8 Division Cavalry Regiment’s Quartermaster, Captain Randle Robinson, was taking notes about what each of the Squadron’s needs were. As feared, the numbers of rounds being fired from the Browning machine guns were higher than expected. This was one of the many things that kept Robinson from a good night’s sleep. The lorries carrying the extra ammo belts were somewhere on the road, mixed up with the rest of the Divisions’ Motor Transport. Robinson promised it would be distributed as soon as it arrived, but each tank and carrier still had just about enough for another day’s fighting.
     
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    • kelgar04

    They aren't wrong about the radial engines they are a bitch to nurse, those tanks are probably going to have to be lugged back to a large workshop.

    Still the Japanese are really getting their heads handed to them and with no effective response to the armour even the IJA's fighting spirit must be getting stretched. Don't think we will see surrenders but with all the stress, fatigue, lack of supply and sickness they will be dropping like flies and doing something stupid.
     
    CountryUsedToBeBritish

    CountryUsedToBeBritish

    kelgar04 said:
    Still the Japanese are really getting their heads handed to them and with no effective response to the armour even the IJA's fighting spirit must be getting stretched. Don't think we will see surrenders but with all the stress, fatigue, lack of supply and sickness they will be dropping like flies and doing something stupid.
    Click to expand...
    IJA High Command: Our higher fighting spirit and bushido will compensate for the lack of food and ammunition.
    British squaddie on a machinegun: BRRRRRRRRRRRR.........
     

    kelgar04

    CountryUsedToBeBritish said:
    IJA High Command: Our higher fighting spirit and bushido will compensate for the lack of food and ammunition.
    British squaddie on a machinegun: BRRRRRRRRRRRR.........
    Click to expand...
    You missed out dysentery, malaria, parasites and all sorts of other illness. The Average IJA private had a really poor diet to begin with factor in the lack of decent logistics.

    Well expect manpower to take a major hit.
     

    focus9912

    kelgar04 said:
    Don't think we will see surrenders but with all the stress, fatigue, lack of supply and sickness they will be dropping like flies and doing something stupid.
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    Well the fact that the British in just a day reverse the advances that took the Japanese three days seems like the IJA already in the phase of doing that.

    Whether the Japanese had an adequate backup plan to defend the advances in Malaya could only be probably determined when the frontline reverse back to Penang.

    And I do not think the airfield at Butterworth is in an operable state that could help the Japanese in this case.
     
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    Cryhavoc101

    How many machine guns does the M3 Stuart have?

    Answer - all of them!

    Early M3s had 5 MGs (2 in front wing sponsions in addition to teh bow, coax and commanders guns) but not sure when those were deleted

    I take it the 'commanders' M1919 Browning is the one that has been demounted and remounted on the Carriers?

    I understand it was British practice to remvoe those MGs on US supplied tanks - certainly by 1944

    I do notice that earlier British tanks had a Bren gun on a Lakeman mounting - so possibly not?

    One advantage is that US Production of 37mm HE shells starts in Feb 42 (or did OTL) so these should start arriving soonish and the beehive rounds in April 42

    2 pounder HE was a bit later.
     

    Monty Man

    Great Allan, keep em coming. If the British M3s can push on past Taiping ( reference to folks - west of Malayisa just south of Georgetown/ Penang) then the port of Georgetown can be re-captured and all bets are off. British high footedit out of there OTL very quicly and I assume they did here too. It's a long way up to Bangkok for sure but GT/Penaang will enable full supplies to come in from India. Major gateway to SE Asia. Only way Japanese could interdict would be aircraft flying at long range over land from Gulf of Thailand. Good for a suprise attack or two but in a sustained campaign the Japanese just wouldn't have the resources to sustain a long term bombing campaign. IJA in real trouble here.
     

    kelgar04

    focus9912 said:
    Well the fact that the British just a day to reverse the advances that took the Japanese three days seems like the IJA already in the phase of doing that.

    Whether the Japanese had an adequate backup plan to defend the advances in Malaya could only be probably determined when the frontline reverse back to Penang.

    And I do not think the airfield at Butterworth is in an operable state that could help the Japanese in this case.
    Click to expand...
    Well whatever happen Tojo will probably be calling for them to fall on their swords at this point. Or drown the British and commonwealth forces in there own blood and bodies
     

    kelgar04

    The Mole's Revenge said:
    By the sound of that, in another universe Tojo will probably be an Imperial Guard Commissar.
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    Tojo centralised a lot of power in his hands, he could be effective in a lot of ways but he did not understand the logistics or what fighting the US would mean.

    Heck the man actually travelled through the US but unlike Yamato drew the wrong conclusions.
     
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    vetinari

    Cryhavoc101 said:
    How many machine guns does the M3 Stuart have?

    Answer - all of them!

    Early M3s had 5 MGs (2 in front wing sponsions in addition to teh bow, coax and commanders guns) but not sure when those were deleted

    I take it the 'commanders' M1919 Browning is the one that has been demounted and remounted on the Carriers?

    I understand it was British practice to remvoe those MGs on US supplied tanks - certainly by 1944

    I do notice that earlier British tanks had a Bren gun on a Lakeman mounting - so possibly not?

    One advantage is that US Production of 37mm HE shells starts in Feb 42 (or did OTL) so these should start arriving soonish and the beehive rounds in April 42

    2 pounder HE was a bit later.
    Click to expand...
    By 1942 the M3 Stuart in British service had the sponson MG largely removed. Commonwealth carriers were generally armed with two MGs anyway - an LMG and a Vickers MMG.
     
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