Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Both have advantages, Sicily a bit more as it was seen , correctly it turned out , as having chance of causing Italy to exit the war. Greece was a good enough choice however that the Germans believed the Allied misdirection and kept sending forces to booster their position in Greece at the expense of Italy.
Of course this was due to the Germans knowing how much oil they had left, the Allies were still unaware of just how low German reserves were ( hence not prioritising it as a target till later). If the Allies had known, then Greece might have been more of a viable option ( still think Sicily would have been chosen as it was lower risk )
Well with Crete in allied hands (and possibly the Dodecanese), Greece will be even more believable as a target. Sicily is still the better bet though IMO.
Indeed, but looking at the bigger picture, Greece is useful only for a niche, as yet unsupportable operation (bombing Ploesti), while Sicily confers several political and logistical advantages that affect not only the Mediterranean, but also the Far East.
Never mind the distinct lack of supporting airbases
1 December 1941. Tripoli, Libya.
allanpcameron
Donor
1 December 1941. Tripoli, Libya.
It had been a hard slog for the New Zealanders, but their efforts were paying off. The Italians and Germans had hoped that the Tarhuna-Homs line would hold for about three weeks, allowing reinforcements to cross the Mediterranean. In fact, they had only held for a few days, and the remaining German panzers, providing the mobile flank guard and counterattack force, had failed to stop 2nd Armoured Division. The Germans had taken a toll, but the British tank force was altogether stronger and better equipped. Major-General Harold Charrington had learned a lot in Greece, and despite the difficult terrain, had managed to make sure that when there was a clash, the Germans would always be outnumbered. The last Panzer III and IVs had all been destroyed, and the remaining Panzer IIs were last seen by the RAF heading west.
Alongside 2nd Armoured Division, the New Zealand Division had fought hard against those elements of the Italian and German army that were prepared to fight. There had been two epic battles to get to this point. The first was the defile that brought the Division down from the Gebel heights. Once that was cleared, the second was the capture of Point 193, ten miles to the east of Azizia. This was the lynchpin of the last defences of Tripoli, and 6th Infantry Brigade had finally pushed the Italians off the previous night.
At first light, the New Zealand Divisional Cavalry moved forward aiming for the main airbase at Castel Benito, with 4th Infantry Brigade at their heels. With the fighting now on the plain of Tripoli, there was greater room for manoeuvre. The reality was that Italian army was finished. The numbers of prisoners slowed the New Zealanders. 2nd Armoured Division, with the 3rd Indian Motor Brigade, had orders to head first for Azizia, then to cut the coast road between Tripoli and Zuara.
Likewise on the coastal road, the victory at Cussabat had opened up the Italian line, which 7th Armoured Division had been exploiting, along with 6th and 50th Infantry Division, making up XIII Corps. The delaying tactics of the Italians, had slowed the advance as demolitions and mining had made forward movement, even for tracked vehicles difficult. Finally, the 22nd Guards Brigade had successfully taken Coradinni, with a flank attack having made a difficult night march. After heavy fighting the town fell. Now at last the last fifty miles to Tripoli along the coast road was cleared of organised resistance, but not demolitions or mines. Major-General Gott put 4th Armoured Brigade in the vanguard and ordered them to reach Castelverde by nightfall. Two Brigades of 50th (Northumbrian) Division followed the tanks in support.
The Royal Navy’s Force K, based in Malta, which had been reinforced, working with the RAF and Fleet Air Arm had been able to interdict many of the ships heading both away from and towards Tripoli. There had been a steady stream of transport aircraft also heading in both directions. Less of these were intercepted, and the arrival of a new Italian fighter, the Macchi C.202 Folgore flown by 1° Stormo Caccia Terrestre, proved a greater challenge to the Hurricanes and Tomahawks of the RAF.
General Ettore Bastico, as Governor-General of Italian Libya and commander-in-chief over all Axis forces in North Africa, faced with the British breakthroughs, appealed to Rome for instructions. The reply from Mussolini was that he was turn Tripoli into a fortress and fight for every street and house. This was an order that Bastico recognised as coming from desperation. It also clarified for him where his duty lay. He ordered contact to be made with the British to discuss the terms of surrender.
It had been a hard slog for the New Zealanders, but their efforts were paying off. The Italians and Germans had hoped that the Tarhuna-Homs line would hold for about three weeks, allowing reinforcements to cross the Mediterranean. In fact, they had only held for a few days, and the remaining German panzers, providing the mobile flank guard and counterattack force, had failed to stop 2nd Armoured Division. The Germans had taken a toll, but the British tank force was altogether stronger and better equipped. Major-General Harold Charrington had learned a lot in Greece, and despite the difficult terrain, had managed to make sure that when there was a clash, the Germans would always be outnumbered. The last Panzer III and IVs had all been destroyed, and the remaining Panzer IIs were last seen by the RAF heading west.
Alongside 2nd Armoured Division, the New Zealand Division had fought hard against those elements of the Italian and German army that were prepared to fight. There had been two epic battles to get to this point. The first was the defile that brought the Division down from the Gebel heights. Once that was cleared, the second was the capture of Point 193, ten miles to the east of Azizia. This was the lynchpin of the last defences of Tripoli, and 6th Infantry Brigade had finally pushed the Italians off the previous night.
At first light, the New Zealand Divisional Cavalry moved forward aiming for the main airbase at Castel Benito, with 4th Infantry Brigade at their heels. With the fighting now on the plain of Tripoli, there was greater room for manoeuvre. The reality was that Italian army was finished. The numbers of prisoners slowed the New Zealanders. 2nd Armoured Division, with the 3rd Indian Motor Brigade, had orders to head first for Azizia, then to cut the coast road between Tripoli and Zuara.
Likewise on the coastal road, the victory at Cussabat had opened up the Italian line, which 7th Armoured Division had been exploiting, along with 6th and 50th Infantry Division, making up XIII Corps. The delaying tactics of the Italians, had slowed the advance as demolitions and mining had made forward movement, even for tracked vehicles difficult. Finally, the 22nd Guards Brigade had successfully taken Coradinni, with a flank attack having made a difficult night march. After heavy fighting the town fell. Now at last the last fifty miles to Tripoli along the coast road was cleared of organised resistance, but not demolitions or mines. Major-General Gott put 4th Armoured Brigade in the vanguard and ordered them to reach Castelverde by nightfall. Two Brigades of 50th (Northumbrian) Division followed the tanks in support.
The Royal Navy’s Force K, based in Malta, which had been reinforced, working with the RAF and Fleet Air Arm had been able to interdict many of the ships heading both away from and towards Tripoli. There had been a steady stream of transport aircraft also heading in both directions. Less of these were intercepted, and the arrival of a new Italian fighter, the Macchi C.202 Folgore flown by 1° Stormo Caccia Terrestre, proved a greater challenge to the Hurricanes and Tomahawks of the RAF.
General Ettore Bastico, as Governor-General of Italian Libya and commander-in-chief over all Axis forces in North Africa, faced with the British breakthroughs, appealed to Rome for instructions. The reply from Mussolini was that he was turn Tripoli into a fortress and fight for every street and house. This was an order that Bastico recognised as coming from desperation. It also clarified for him where his duty lay. He ordered contact to be made with the British to discuss the terms of surrender.
Very true. The main thing that will possibly count against that argument is that there will be a minimum of 12 months, probably closer to 18 to secure the whole of the North African coast with airfields etc to give as much cover as possible to shipping. After that long the British should be fairly adept at forcing convoys through with minimal loss. In addition there will probably be an offensive campaign against Sicilian airfields to interdict them as much as possible. All of that will reduce the importance of gaining Sicily to fully open the Mediterranean.
Unless and until you can win over the French, Sicily will pose a significant threat to running convoys through the Mediterranean.
I don't think that Vichy French North Africa will remain neutral long. I get a feeling that there is going to be a switch to the British sooner rather than later.
I do admit I could be wrong but all of my thinking is based on that happening. It just seems to convenient, a large number of troops away from the home land. I think it was mentioned that ther are 180000 troops now in French North Africa. I think a power play is about to be made.
It occurs to me that one consequence of the early end to the North African campaign is that whatever plans the British may have been making for future operations will have been made on the basis of no American assistance beyond lend-lease and maybe the occasional 'Canadian' with a strange accent.
There are no hordes of American soldiers or bomber aircraft currently known to be coming, nor vast naval flotillas. Everything which will be done and will have been planned for will have been on the basis that it's India, the Dominions, the Russians, and the UK doing it. (And maybe some volunteers from places like Ireland, and brigades from parts of the Commonwealth like Kenya, too. And the Free French. Mustn't forget de Gaulle. De Gaulle certainly wouldn't be letting anyone in the timeline forget him... )
And there are a lot of Italian prisoners of war that something is going to have to be done with.
There are no hordes of American soldiers or bomber aircraft currently known to be coming, nor vast naval flotillas. Everything which will be done and will have been planned for will have been on the basis that it's India, the Dominions, the Russians, and the UK doing it. (And maybe some volunteers from places like Ireland, and brigades from parts of the Commonwealth like Kenya, too. And the Free French. Mustn't forget de Gaulle. De Gaulle certainly wouldn't be letting anyone in the timeline forget him... )
And there are a lot of Italian prisoners of war that something is going to have to be done with.
Those plans were probably already drawn up on that basis, and will need to be changed later to account for American inclusion.
Its not a given that Hitler will declare war on America.
We haven't heard about much outside the direct effects on this tank based timeline....perhaps politics are differant here, a subtle change or two and it may not happen.
We haven't heard about much outside the direct effects on this tank based timeline....perhaps politics are differant here, a subtle change or two and it may not happen.
I'm not sure the British having more successes would make Hitler any less of an idiot.
War between Germany and America is coming, it is only a matter of time. Germany declaring war on America when it did in OTL was basically formalising the semi war that was already happening between the two countries. I think the same will hold true ITTL and Germany will declare war.
What could be an interesting change and one not discussed is America looking at the situation in Europe and comparing it with the situation in the East. With Britain on the ascendance in Europe and having secured all of North Africa (plus or minus the French bit) there may be a big push to "let Britain carry on" in Europe while America goes Pacific first. The practicalities of that notwithstanding it would likely make sense to quite a few people in America. After all Britain has shown it does not need massive help right now while Japan is overrunning the pacific (well most of it, Malaya should hold ITTL).
I doubt Allan will want to go down that route because it opens a massive can of worms and takes the TL on a massive and untrodden path. Is an interesting thought experiment though. Churchill left to dictate almost unopposed the course of the war in Europe with a (fairly) mighty British army at his disposal. Oh the trouble he could cause.