Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

Isn't it easier for an aircraft to hit a railway which does not move and is over a long distance rather than a moving ship which if in convoy is covered by anti-aircraft fire and where the defending aircraft knows where the attack will be.
I think it is easier to replace rails rather than have to find another ship to replace the ones that have been sunk. Also, it would be rare for an entire rail shipment to be destroyed as opposed to an entire sea shipment being sunk. The first can offload onto trucks or if mobile can then proceed under own power. bit hard when you are 100 fathoms under.
And with AMES/Radar who said the defending fighters don't know where to be?
 
There is to my mind, only one major theatre of war ITTL, where the Americans might if the British are significantly stubborn, accept a British Supreme Commander, even though they have major assets in theatre
In the event that Malaya holds ITTL, and ABDACOM remains intact, it will likely remain a British controlled command. Though it’s possible that the assets deployed by the US to this theatre would not be considered major. It’s also possible that MacArthur’s influence is enough for FDR to seek command autonomy for American forces deployed on or in the liberation of the Philippines. In which case the A in ABDACOM is a little dubious I suppose.
 
I think it is easier to replace rails rather than have to find another ship to replace the ones that have been sunk. Also, it would be rare for an entire rail shipment to be destroyed as opposed to an entire sea shipment being sunk. The first can offload onto trucks or if mobile can then proceed under own power. bit hard when you are 100 fathoms under.
And with AMES/Radar who said the defending fighters don't know where to be?
Well you can do more damage hitting bridges and/or tunnels, but the former are hard to hit with any accuracy, and the latter with sufficient force to do anything much.
 
In the event that Malaya holds ITTL, and ABDACOM remains intact, it will likely remain a British controlled command. Though it’s possible that the assets deployed by the US to this theatre would not be considered major. It’s also possible that MacArthur’s influence is enough for FDR to seek command autonomy for American forces deployed on or in the liberation of the Philippines. In which case the A in ABDACOM is a little dubious I suppose.
Given how big his ego is and the fact he is the textbook definition of a social general with more acumen in boardrooms and congress than he has in command of any form of armed force he will probably try and push for it.

Also probably shaft anyone who he sees as a 'threat' to his Emperors court.
 
What would it take for the Americans ever to accept a non-American supreme commander in a major theater where they depoly major assets even if not a majority???

Divine intervention?

In the event that Malaya holds ITTL, and ABDACOM remains intact, it will likely remain a British controlled command. Though it’s possible that the assets deployed by the US to this theatre would not be considered major. It’s also possible that MacArthur’s influence is enough for FDR to seek command autonomy for American forces deployed on or in the liberation of the Philippines. In which case the A in ABDACOM is a little dubious I suppose.

ABDACOM is definitely going to remain a British Command assuming Malaya goes the way we expect but the consequence will be a minimal American commitment to the theatre for the next two years as the British focus on defending/reclaiming Borneo and perhaps an offensive into Thailand. Meanwhile the the Americans will perform their OTL Central Pacific drive and when they have battered there way through the Mariana's and are ready to attack the Philippines I think you'll see a redrawing of the area commands so place them in the US zone. The British Empire and the US will effectively have fought two separate wars with some possible British contribution to the US theatre from USS Robin and an American contingent in Burma to help supply China. It will actually work pretty I think as they'll be attacking from different directions and using different supply lines.
The bigger problem will be in Europe where you can't really divide up the Med or Northern France into a British zone and an American zone but need to have an integrated command. The only way I can see it working is that the US basically skips the entire Med theatre and just does a build up in Southern England, under US command, probably Eisenhower, to prepare for a 1943 invasion of France. British Empire forces spend 1942 wrapping up the Med with only token (like or two Divisions) US assistance and then with Sardinia, Sicily and Rhodes secure brings forces back to Europe to land in Northern France under a US command. But they keep a large force in the Med ready to open a 3rd front, either in Southern France or Italy to keep the Axis divided and draw attention away from the main thrust.
 
If Malaya hold while the Philippines falls, that will reflect badly on the Americans, as will the British sinking more ships, due to having reliable torpedoes. Hells, there's the possibility that the British might actually get asked, surreptitiously, to try to figure out why the things are so unreliable.
 
Fair comment. Mind you, a convoy is an obvious target, a train perhaps less so (is any particular train war materials, or is it purely civilian?). Trains are also not particularly susceptible to submarines IIRC.
Trains are entirely susceptible to submarines if the railway line is coastal and the submarine has a deck gun. Or if the submarine is carrying commandos specialised in making railway lines go 'boom'.
 
If Malaya hold while the Philippines falls, that will reflect badly on the Americans, as will the British sinking more ships, due to having reliable torpedoes. Hells, there's the possibility that the British might actually get asked, surreptitiously, to try to figure out why the things are so unreliable.
That's more than likely going to be the sub skippers on the scene who ask that rather than BueOrd they remained obstinate about the whole torpedo issues for a stupidly longtime until they had their face ground into the issues.
 
That's more than likely going to be the sub skippers on the scene who ask that rather than BueOrd they remained obstinate about the whole torpedo issues for a stupidly longtime until they had their face ground into the issues.
That's why I said surreptitiously.
 
Well you can do more damage hitting bridges and/or tunnels, but the former are hard to hit with any accuracy, and the latter with sufficient force to do anything much.
Not too many tunnels or bridges in North Africa! So yes, as you implied, rather difficult to put out of action,
And as the link I provided stated, the Allied tracks were laid on Sand, so no problem bulldozing sand back into place and repairing the rails. The links further westward may not have been so but that means the engineering efforts to provide suitable track beds is now increased, with a concomitant increase in time needed to finish the project. Narrow gauge did not mean a lessening of provision but the limitations of the narrow gauge such as lighter loads do mitigate against serious rail resupply.
Let's face facts. The rail infrastructure in North Africa west of Tobruk was sh@t! The load carrying capacity, the lightness of the rails and track, the lack of suitable rolling stock and locomotive capacity, the lack of such things as passing loops, essential if you have as North Africa has, single track systems, all mean that Rail is a useful adjunct to maritime supply, for an as yet defined level of adjunct. Some may even say that the desire to establish a viable railway system in North Africa was a sop to post war needs.
 
That's more than likely going to be the sub skippers on the scene who ask that rather than BueOrd they remained obstinate about the whole torpedo issues for a stupidly longtime until they had their face ground into the issues.
Sub skippers who then get Courts Martials for insubordination and giving away the secrets of America's super 100% reliable and vastly superior to any other torpedoes to the British.
 
What would it take for the Americans ever to accept a non-American supreme commander in a major theater where they depoly major assets even if not a majority???
I recall a senior Belgian officer, present at a conference, listening to Americans saying that it was unacceptable for US troops to be under a foreign command and fascinated by their complete inability to comprehend that they were demanding that foreign troops be under American command and that this was just the same situation.
 
I recall a senior Belgian officer, present at a conference, listening to Americans saying that it was unacceptable for US troops to be under a foreign command and fascinated by their complete inability to comprehend that they were demanding that foreign troops be under American command and that this was just the same situation.
I blame that incompetent fool Black Jack Pershing for that. Sadly it's his men that paid the price for his refusal to listen not him, but the Americans lionise him.
 

Garrison

Donor
If Malaya hold while the Philippines falls, that will reflect badly on the Americans, as will the British sinking more ships, due to having reliable torpedoes. Hells, there's the possibility that the British might actually get asked, surreptitiously, to try to figure out why the things are so unreliable.
Yeah MacArthur's 'I shall return' rings a bit hollow when others are holding the line against the Japanese.
 
I recall a senior Belgian officer, present at a conference, listening to Americans saying that it was unacceptable for US troops to be under a foreign command and fascinated by their complete inability to comprehend that they were demanding that foreign troops be under American command and that this was just the same situation.
Except it isn't, because like it or not the Americans are very much Top Dog of the Western Allies, with the British as junior partners and the minor allies as hangers on. All of them, even the British, are utterly dependent on US equipment, US logistics and US supplies and no major operation can be contemplated without US involvement, so what Uncle Sam says, goes.

The only possible exception to this would be if the British effectively signed over the Second Front to the US and concentrated everything in what the US regarded as a secondary theatre, such as SE Asia or the Med. And that would be a major political decision in and of itself.
 
If Weygand opts to join the Allies it does not necessarily follow that it happens. Vichy can immediately disown, dismiss and arrest him. Bear in mind that he Vichy forces were acting as Axis biased neutrals (as those taken as internees such as sailors and airmen have attested) and had fought land campaigns in Syria, Senegal, Gabon and Madagascar against Commonwealth invasions and a blockade of French Somalia and Djibouti , it’s fleet attacked by them in harbour and at sea and had bombed Gibraltar in retaliation twice. IOTL there was significant fighting against the Operation Torch landings, especially in Algeria. The French navy is still a significant presence if oil is released to them by the Germans. Just possibly a hot pursuit into Tunisia. Ould prompt Vichy to get German support to defend French North Africa and make Vichy an Axis ally allowing them to reinforce North Africa if they can maintain a sea line across the Western Mediterranean. Not to mention raising local troops and threaten British West Africa from French West Africa. The whole tangle could make a later invasion of France one of invading a hostile territory instead of liberating it. With an Axis France could Spain be persuaded to join with an Hispano Franco attack to take Gibraltar to ease access between Metropolitan France and North Africa?

Pushing the limits of AH, but far from ASB. Apologies for inserting this into the OP’s storyline.
 
If Malaya hold while the Philippines falls, that will reflect badly on the Americans, as will the British sinking more ships, due to having reliable torpedoes.
Except it isn't, because like it or not the Americans are very much Top Dog of the Western Allies, with the British as junior partners and the minor allies as hangers on. All of them, even the British, are utterly dependent on US equipment, US logistics and US supplies and no major operation can be contemplated without US involvement, so what Uncle Sam says, goes.

The only possible exception to this would be if the British effectively signed over the Second Front to the US and concentrated everything in what the US regarded as a secondary theatre, such as SE Asia or the Med. And that would be a major political decision in and of itself.

I'm not sure if you're talking about contemporary military politics or 1942 but in 1942 that's actually not the case. The British Empire provided the majority and then plurality of troops, ships and planes in the European Theatre, even after accounting for lend lease, right up until the end of 43/start of 44. The reason they agreed to an American supreme commander, first in the Med and then in North West Europe was a combination of an understanding of future American resources and the fact that the prior British Army performance was so dire that they didn't really have a counter to the Americans saying "we're not going to give you our troops to reenact the Gazala line fiasco". Note that the RAF and RN, which hadn't had such catastrophes remaind outside Eisenhower's authority until just before D-Day.
Here the British Army has had a very good war. They were let down by their allies in France but acquitted themselves well, were grossly outnumbered in Greece but performed an excellent fighting retreat and North Africa has been a glorious success. That's not the sort of record that is going to make handing command to a partner who is junior to you in terms of troops committed politically viable.
So the only way I can see this working is a token American commitment under British command to the Med while the main US build up is in England, under US command and preparing for a 1943 invasion of France. Britain makes a contribution to the cross channel invasion but (unlike OTL D-Day which was majority British) it's smaller than the American effort and instead Empire forces focus on Italy/Southern France. When the two meet up in Central France in mid 44 after a brutal slog that will have killed tens of thousands of green American troops the US is genuinely the dominant partner and assumes leadership of the combined offensive into Germany.
 
If Weygand opts to join the Allies it does not necessarily follow that it happens. Vichy can immediately disown, dismiss and arrest him. Bear in mind that he Vichy forces were acting as Axis biased neutrals (as those taken as internees such as sailors and airmen have attested) and had fought land campaigns in Syria, Senegal, Gabon and Madagascar against Commonwealth invasions and a blockade of French Somalia and Djibouti , it’s fleet attacked by them in harbour and at sea and had bombed Gibraltar in retaliation twice. IOTL there was significant fighting against the Operation Torch landings, especially in Algeria. The French navy is still a significant presence if oil is released to them by the Germans. Just possibly a hot pursuit into Tunisia. Ould prompt Vichy to get German support to defend French North Africa and make Vichy an Axis ally allowing them to reinforce North Africa if they can maintain a sea line across the Western Mediterranean. Not to mention raising local troops and threaten British West Africa from French West Africa. The whole tangle could make a later invasion of France one of invading a hostile territory instead of liberating it. With an Axis France could Spain be persuaded to join with an Hispano Franco attack to take Gibraltar to ease access between Metropolitan France and North Africa?

Pushing the limits of AH, but far from ASB. Apologies for inserting this into the OP’s storyline.
The French in NA have just watched the British repeatedly smash Italian and German positions, held up more by their own logistical constraints than any enemy military strength.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
AIUI Torch had an US commander to try to prevent local French opposition. And it failed. Though after the landings and some circumstantial murders, Darlan, they did come back to the Wallies Coalition and were very, very useful.
 
The French in NA have just watched the British repeatedly smash Italian and German positions, held up more by their own logistical constraints than any enemy military strength.

Hmm makes you wonder if Anglo-French relations will be cold Post War in TTL since I think some sections of French society may conjure up a stabbed in the back or maybe the side would be a better term when it comes to the fall of France.
 
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